Liverpool FC Forum

by **red_indian** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:22 am

I wanted to get some views on our ability as a team to make use of pace effectively as this seems to be one of the key elements to winning the the title these days...

Pace is not just a physical thing but also speed of thought also - Arsenal over recent years have had Overmars, Anelka, Henry. Chelsea in their better years had Robben, Duff and Drogba all attacking with pace. Manure have benefited from Ronaldo, Giggs and Rooney, may be the latter two more on speed of thought than raw pace. In comparison we have tired Cisse, Bellamy and Gonzales - none of these i'm sure would be left behind in a straight sprint against the above mentioned names - so what has been missing?

Is it out playing style - can we exploit pace effectively the way Rafa has us play? Or has it just been down to the fact that the players we have tried have just not been up to scratch or lacking the skill and guile necessary to productively benefit from the explosive pace they had?

On the first point is it possible that because our back line lacks pace (compared to other defences) means we end up not playing high enough up the pitch and so do not get enough players supporting in and around the box to keep the pressure on the defending team, or else cannot support quickly enough in a counter-attack situation to always benefit? Should we think about addressing this during the remianing transfer window?

Or is the only point that now we have the proper mix of talent in Torres, Babel & Voronin (not sure how quick he really is) to be much more effective as far as pace goes as they also now have the skills and guile lacking in the case of Cisse, Bellamy and Gonzales? Lets face it i cannot remember the last time either of Cisse, Bellamy or Gonzales actually beat a man with pace or skill, something i think Torres and Babel are much better placed to do - the likes of Henry, Overmars, Ronaldo, Robben (in better times) have been able to do this for fun.

by **redmikey** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:41 am

the arsenal team attacks as a whole with pace and the ball is one touch all the way to the front line which puts a lot of pressure on defenders to get in position, but that depends on the opposition attacking to give them the room

manure had a front line last year capable of carrying the ball at pace which i feel we will have this term with gerrard playing a more attacking central role
and bambi was exception in anyones eyes as much as it grips me to say it

last term we were unable to convert chances which was our biggest let down, we play a steamroller mentality very much like valencia did under rafa , but we just lacked a killer touch which is where your 21 points are, games where you dominate you have to win, manure both games are the best examples they have all the pace in the world but we battered them and controlled the whole game with tactics and a strong midfield

pace is important but converting possession into goals is vital this term

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:47 am

Or has it just been down to the fact that the players we have tried have just not been up to scratch or lacking the skill and guile necessary to productively benefit from the explosive pace they had?

Thats definately the case for the players you've mentioned, apart from Bellamy. I think Bellamy is a decent footballer and knows how to use his pace to hurt teams (when not being caught offside that is). Cisse and Gonzalez would be far better off on an athletics track, while Cisse has no footballing brain Gonzalez' touch and distribution of the ball and lack of confidence to take a man on for me plainly says that these kind of players are know way near good enough. Back to Bellamy quickly, Rafa's gameplan just didnt suite or play to Bellamy's strength, I'm sure if Rafa wanted to he could of changed that about the team and play to Bellamy's strength, but thats the managers perogative.

Pace isnt everything though it most certainly does help in a team, in an attacking sense and a defending one. Just as speed of thought helps and having the ability to take a man on. Really we've only got Harry Kewell who is capable of doing this to good effect. I think its obvious as to why Benitez went out and brought Beneyoun and Babel as we lacked guile, pace, directness, creativity and above all else goals from midfield. Like I've said before whether these two Babel especially are capable of helping out only time will tell, but Rafa obviously knows this was a problem for us last year, not just pace but everything thats needed in an attacking sense.

One thing I would like to see improved on this season or speeded up, is the tempo of our play. Especially when trying to break teams down who come to defend. For my liking it has been all too lethargic and patient at times, when zipping the ball about with tempo and intent is something we can take from Arsenal and United. They do it well enough and United especially were hardly left dissapointed after 97 mins at Old Trafford, and I think this is not just largely due to there players alone, but at the pace they play and at the intent at which they play it at.

by **red_indian** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:08 pm

so , at this stage no one believes our lack of pace at the back is a limitation on the way we can play in an attacking sense? I think our full backs (although perfectly credible) do not offer as much high up the pitch as the good Arsenal sides of old or vs Manure last year - i cannot help but feel that is either down to a conservative system being deployed by Rafa or else a lack of confidence on the pace/recovery power of our CBs

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:08 pm

Until now (Newest signings excepted), we haven't had any intelligence from our pacy players. Cisse had the footballing brain of a goat, Bellamy used his pace in the wrong places for our team (as in - offside), and Gonzalez never settled.

Hopefully (touch wood), things are about to change, and Torres, Babel and co will rip defenses to shreds.

We live in hope...

by **redsince2001** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:20 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Until now (Newest signings excepted), we haven't had any intelligence from our pacy players. Cisse had the footballing brain of a goat, Bellamy used his pace in the wrong places for our team (as in - offside), and Gonzalez never settled.

Hopefully (touch wood), things are about to change, and Torres, Babel and co will rip defenses to shreds.

We live in hope...

by **Scottbot** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:27 pm

red_indian wrote:I wanted to get some views on our ability as a team to make use of pace effectively as this seems to be one of the key elements to winning the the title these days...

It's a decent topic and one that's worth discussing. I think pace is a little overated by a lot of fans/posters when it comes to discussing the merits of individual players but it is (obviously) very important to have a few pacy players in the side for a number of reasons. It's important to have a couple (or at least one) of quick players in your front four because this ensures opposing teams have to show you respect when defending. Ideally the other team will play a high line when you're in possession of the ball, it compresses the pitch and means it easier for them to press the ball and regain posession. Throw in someone like Mikey Owen in his pomp and they have no choice but to retreat and protect the space behind them. then of course you can partner your lightneing quick striker with a big man who's strong in the air (picture Les Ferdinand or Shearer in their pomps). The last place you want these guys is in the box, attacking crosses and muscling defenders but you've already been forced deep because of the threat in behind. I like the little an large combo because it gives defences a bit of a catch 22.

Pace on the flanks helps, particularly if you're up against a team who like their fullbacks to push up on the overlap. A couple of quick wingers in your team will keep them a little more mindful of their defensive duties and helps to minimise this threat.

For the smaller sides pace is critical in terms of the goal threat they pose because they see less of the ball and spend more time on the back foot. They rely on counter-attacking football, look to break at speed, and often score goals with the ball in behind once the oppposition has over-committed. Just look at Darren Bent's goals the last two years as a prime example. The problem for a big club like Liverpool is that unless we're up against Chelsea, Arsenal or the mancs there aren't too many opportunities to put the ball in behind, turn their defenders, win it with pace and score, whether it's home or away the opposition will sit back and defend the edge of the box. The likes of Bellamy, Cisse and (even) Gonzalez will all thrive at smaller teams where they are afforded space but at the big clubs it takes a lot more than either of these players have. And while i still think Bellamy is a talented player, I believe he got found out a bit last year. There were too many games in which he was simply invisible and at the end of the day, he didn't really have enough in his locker, particularly against the bigger teams.

Pace is important but it has to come in a package with first touch, intelligence, passing ability, shooting and all the other attributes. If you look at Cisse, he was lightening quick, quite powerful and could shoot with power but there wasn't a lot else. He was way too raw for a club like liverpool, same goes for Gonzalez. Look at the so-called pacey players at our rivals over the last couple of years. At Arsenal - Henry speaks for himself, Lungberg's got the lot (or had), Hleb is VERY quick but is technically excellent with it. At Chelsea you've got Drogba who has so many other attributes to go with pace, Robben and Duff are both burners but also posess great balance and agilty and can show all this with the ball glued to their feet. Look at Utd and Ronaldo springs to mind when you ask who's the quickest? but he'd still be a pretty special player if you took some of that gas away, he's strong as an oxe, has a great touch, all the tricks and can see a pass.

So pace is very important BUT only if it comes with all the other stuff, pace alone is not much use at LFC or any of the big clubs. We have bought Torres, a very quick player, but he needs to be strong, hold up the ball, use it intelligently, make the right runs off the ball, know when to attack space and know how to create it. I don't really think the manager has got to go about using pace in a particular way or style of play because if the new players he has bought are good enough then THEY will use it themselves in every game they play.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:23 am

Scottbot wrote:The problem for a big club like Liverpool is that unless we're up against Chelsea, Arsenal or the mancs there aren't too many opportunities to put the ball in behind, turn their defenders, win it with pace and score, whether it's home or away the opposition will sit back and defend the edge of the box.

I still think the pace of Torres will offer us an extra dimension at most places away from home, not just in games that involve the top four, in fact it could be just the opposite given the extra defensive precautions taken by managers when the top four clubs play each other.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:22 am

Scottbot wrote:
red_indian wrote:I wanted to get some views on our ability as a team to make use of pace effectively as this seems to be one of the key elements to winning the the title these days...

It's a decent topic and one that's worth discussing. I think pace is a little overated by a lot of fans/posters when it comes to discussing the merits of individual players but it is (obviously) very important to have a few pacy players in the side for a number of reasons. It's important to have a couple (or at least one) of quick players in your front four because this ensures opposing teams have to show you respect when defending. Ideally the other team will play a high line when you're in possession of the ball, it compresses the pitch and means it easier for them to press the ball and regain posession. Throw in someone like Mikey Owen in his pomp and they have no choice but to retreat and protect the space behind them. then of course you can partner your lightneing quick striker with a big man who's strong in the air (picture Les Ferdinand or Shearer in their pomps). The last place you want these guys is in the box, attacking crosses and muscling defenders but you've already been forced deep because of the threat in behind. I like the little an large combo because it gives defences a bit of a catch 22.

Pace on the flanks helps, particularly if you're up against a team who like their fullbacks to push up on the overlap. A couple of quick wingers in your team will keep them a little more mindful of their defensive duties and helps to minimise this threat.

For the smaller sides pace is critical in terms of the goal threat they pose because they see less of the ball and spend more time on the back foot. They rely on counter-attacking football, look to break at speed, and often score goals with the ball in behind once the oppposition has over-committed. Just look at Darren Bent's goals the last two years as a prime example. The problem for a big club like Liverpool is that unless we're up against Chelsea, Arsenal or the mancs there aren't too many opportunities to put the ball in behind, turn their defenders, win it with pace and score, whether it's home or away the opposition will sit back and defend the edge of the box. The likes of Bellamy, Cisse and (even) Gonzalez will all thrive at smaller teams where they are afforded space but at the big clubs it takes a lot more than either of these players have. And while i still think Bellamy is a talented player, I believe he got found out a bit last year. There were too many games in which he was simply invisible and at the end of the day, he didn't really have enough in his locker, particularly against the bigger teams.

Pace is important but it has to come in a package with first touch, intelligence, passing ability, shooting and all the other attributes. If you look at Cisse, he was lightening quick, quite powerful and could shoot with power but there wasn't a lot else. He was way too raw for a club like liverpool, same goes for Gonzalez. Look at the so-called pacey players at our rivals over the last couple of years. At Arsenal - Henry speaks for himself, Lungberg's got the lot (or had), Hleb is VERY quick but is technically excellent with it. At Chelsea you've got Drogba who has so many other attributes to go with pace, Robben and Duff are both burners but also posess great balance and agilty and can show all this with the ball glued to their feet. Look at Utd and Ronaldo springs to mind when you ask who's the quickest? but he'd still be a pretty special player if you took some of that gas away, he's strong as an oxe, has a great touch, all the tricks and can see a pass.

So pace is very important BUT only if it comes with all the other stuff, pace alone is not much use at LFC or any of the big clubs. We have bought Torres, a very quick player, but he needs to be strong, hold up the ball, use it intelligently, make the right runs off the ball, know when to attack space and know how to create it. I don't really think the manager has got to go about using pace in a particular way or style of play because if the new players he has bought are good enough then THEY will use it themselves in every game they play.

Agreed very good point ,

I would have liked us to sign Miroslav Klose this player would be a perfect partner for torres he is smart , great finisher , very good at link up play and strong in air he has ok pace but like you said pace isnt every thing .

I know he is 29 but he got 4 years left i think at top of his game and i think he would have no problem comming to uk and playing due to he plays in Bundesliga.

For me pace is some thing that really counts off the ball more then on it , you can only travel so fast with the ball no matter how fast you are cos you need on top of your pace , quick smart feet to control the ball and this is one of the hardest skills in football dribbling with speed.

So for me no pace isnt important not as much as footballing brain , strong body and alot of heart.

by **stmichael** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:45 pm

After watching just two preseason games I have seen Liverpool strikers get behind the defense more times than the whole of last season. Both Torres and Voronin have showed that they can time their runs and have the legs to get behind defences. Benayoun, Alonso, Gerrard, and Lucas will have better targets this season for their through balls, and that will enrich the way Liverpool attack.

Pace is no good unless you have the skill and movement to go with it though. Watching Cisse who was cr@p at running with the ball, Milan who was cr@p at bringing others into play and Bellamy who is (was?) cr@p at finishing it's clear we need a player who can do all 3 well. That's why I changed my views of the type of striker we needed; first I thought we needed a finisher to score the goals we've missed (like Bent for example), but then I thought it'd be better if we got someone who scores goals, but is also fast and brings other strikers into play- a Rooney type (Tevez was the obvious name along with Torres).

I do agree with Scottbot that the issue of pace is overplayed somewhat though. I'd rather have a normal paced technical side rather than some athletes with no ability what so ever playing for us.

by **Scottbot** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:26 am

stmichael wrote:Pace is no good unless you have the skill and movement to go with it though. Watching Cisse who was cr@p at running with the ball, Milan who was cr@p at bringing others into play and Bellamy who is (was?) cr@p at finishing it's clear we need a player who can do all 3 well. That's why I changed my views of the type of striker we needed; first I thought we needed a finisher to score the goals we've missed (like Bent for example), but then I thought it'd be better if we got someone who scores goals, but is also fast and brings other strikers into play- a Rooney type (Tevez was the obvious name along with Torres).

Hopefully Torres is the answer mate. He's spent a good part of his career playing up-front on his own and virtually his whole career as his team's biggest threat. Bellamy is quick but he never had the savvy to really trouble the best back-fours. He wasn't/isn't sneaky with clever running like an Owen or Fowler and didn't offer the mobility and ability to pull a defence all over the show that Baros gave us at times on the European run (his role is very under-played for me) in 2005.

by **stmichael** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:35 pm

it is also important to point out that this improved pace and movement upfront will bring the very best out of alonso. by that i mean him influencing the play higher up the pitch as he was doing in his first full season. i was never a fan of cisse or baros but at least they gave alonso an option to play his killer balls in behind defences.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:42 pm

Pace is a great asset, pace alone is pretty useless though unless backed up with as much skill. Great players may be fast, but fast players aren't necessarily great. People say Owen is slowing down and "past it", however he wouldn't have scored the goals he has without plenty of skill. Whether he would be as effective without pace is another matter

by **red_indian** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:58 pm

i just wanted to reopen this topic, if no one else sees the point then please feel free to say so. Having watched the last few games, Man City, Wigan and Luton today and our inability to win the first two i still cannot help but feel that our play is being compromised by a lack of confidence in the ability of our defence to recover against counter attacks/pacy forwards/quick movement.

Admittedly the two league matches featured Arbeloa in an unfamiliar position but the point is that we are not playing high enough up the pitch to keep pressure on the opposition and attacking with enough numbers to make the difference - i think this is down to a lack of pace in the back line or covering defenders in general. The better sides have no hesitation in letting full backs overlap on the flanks and at the same time getting numbers in to the box to attack any crosses - we are still lacking here.

Also - 2 other things... aside from our captain and maybe Risse/Aurelio none of our players seem to have the confidence to shoot from outside the box, parries, deflections are definitely worth trying to take advantage of. I cannot remember Torres once shooting from outside the box, in some cases his runs with the ball lead him to get muddled up around too many defenders when he has little support around him from colleagues - i wish he would in such cases just shooot with conviction rather that run in to a sea of defenders and lose the ball.

Finally, is anyone else frustrated by Pennant constantly floating in crosses when really driving or whipping one in would be much more valuable as it offers the possibility of much more confusion to opposition defenders running back towards their own goal (see our own goal today). Flighting a ball in the way JP does offers defenders and keeper far too much time to get in position and surpress the danger - surely this can be easily corrected, so why has it not been???

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:28 pm

You're right red indian, I agree with you on all the points that you made. I've always felt that we need more pace in the team in the back, out wide and in front. This team also needs more technically gifted players. Without these type of players our style looks so average and boring we we start to rely on our very few gifted players to win us the matches. I'm also frustrated by the lack of shots from outside the box, especially with Torres I have never seen him score from outside the box. I feel that this is one area on which he really needs to work on.

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