Liverpool FC Forum

by drevinho » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:27 pm

by JoeTerp » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:55 pm

by garcia123 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:14 pm

by account deleted by request » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:02 pm

Thanks for everyone's input on this. I got 273 different formations and lineups off people, so I think it's safe to say the sample space is large enough to draw a few conclusions. Took me ages to type it in though and work out what to write about, which is why it's take me so long to get this done.

This is really only a collaboration of people's opinions, so it doesn't mean anything scientific, but I think it's useful to gather people's opinions and put them all together. This shouldn't be used for player bashing though, and I hope it won't. It could also be interesting to do another survey towards the end of the season to see how much public opinion has swung on certain players and formations.

Some other points: Some people were a bit too descriptive with their formations so I may have simplified a few of them. For instance, I have no way of processing "Gerrard on the wing but also supporting the front two". I have made a few other assumptions on formations as well: I have assumed that 4-2-1-3 is the same as 4-2-3-1 (as the 2 wide strikers are normally a bit deeper than the main striker). I've assumed 4-1-3-2 is 4-4-2 because the deeper midfielder is normally part of a 4-4-2 anyway. 4-1-3-1-1 is a 4-4-1-1 for the same reason. And 4-1-4-1 is 4-1-2-2-1 because it just is. Isn't it? I kept 4-2-3-1 separate to 4-1-2-2-1, even though the only difference is normally Alonso playing a bit more forward. And 4-3-3 is known as 4-3-2-1 in this. Out of the 273 entries, 4 people went for 3 at the back. I've not used that for all my analysis because it would've complicated things. Oh, and some teams I had to leave out... a team of Carraghers wasn't taken seriously, Le Tallec is not here, and maybe a few others who either didn't put formations down, or gave me a choice of players to put in. I can't choose for you! Oh, and putting Gerrard as left back is ok in an emergency - but his best position?


Formations:

4-4-2 was the most popular with 41% of people going with it. This is not surprising after Mike "Four-Four- Two" Bassett adopted these tactics. Next was the 4-2-3-1 with 37% of the votes. Third was 4-4-1-1, and fourth was 4-1-2-2-1. There were a few other formations mentioned, some of them are just slight variations of the existing ones, and some were based on 3 at the back.

4-4-2               112            41.0%
4-2-3-1            102            37.4%
4-4-1-1            26               9.5%
4-1-2-2-1         21               7.7%
4-3-2-1            4                 1.5%
4-3-1-2            2                 0.7%
4-1-2-1-2         2                 0.7%
3-4-1-2            1                 0.4%
3-1-4-2            1                 0.4%
3-2-4-1            1                 0.4%
3-2-3-2            1                 0.4%


The popularity of individual players:

There are 3 players that made it into every single team - Reina, Gerrard and Torres. No surprise there really. Agger made it into all but 2 of the teams, and Carragher made it into all but 16. That must be a sign that some people think he's losing his touch, as this was based on players at full form.

Alonso and Mascherano got in most teams also. Arbeloa and Finnan are our most popular fullbacks. I was surprised that Kewell and Babel made it into so many teams (even though I put them in mine). If people had entered their teams on the back of watching the Wigan match, it may have been different. As for Babel - it looks like that most of us think he's worthy of a first team place already. Or maybe that's because there are no better alternatives. Aurelio made it as left back into a third of all the teams - even though he's been injured a lot and has never really had a chance to build up his form.

From the table, you can see how popular Pennant and Benayoun are - not enourmously. But the main thing the table shows is how much confidence we have in our forwards. Crouch got 54 votes, Kuyt got 29, and Voronin got 1. That says a lot about our strikeforce I think. It's a poor showing. This might help to settle the "Kuyt or Crouch" arguments that happen on here - the majority think neither of them. In fact it was Babel that most people seemed to be putting up front - even though he has hardly played a game there. It is saying something when most people would rather have somebody relatively untried up front with Torres than any of our other 'established' strikers.

Finally - it's no surprise that Itandje didn't get any votes, but that's because we all think Reina is brilliant. But for Momo to not get one single vote... Remember, this is based on players being on top form. The Sissoko of 2 years ago was immense, arguably on a par with Mascherano. Just shows how everyone has lost confidence in him.

Reina                       273                       100%
Gerrard                    273                        100%
Torres                     273                        100%
Agger                      271                      99.3%
Carragher                257                      94.1%
Alonso                     252                      92.3%
Mascherano            243                      89.0%
Arebloa                   221                      81.0%
Finnan                    199                       72.9%
Kewell                    199                       72.9%
Babel                      197                      72.2%
Aurelio                    95                        34.8%
Benayoun               56                        20.6%
Crouch                    54                        19.8%
Pennant                  47                        17.2%
Riise                        34                        12.5%
Kuyt                        29                        10.6%
Hyypia                    18                          6.6%
Lucas                      11                          4.0%
Voronin                    1                           0.4%
Sissoko                    0                              0%
Itandje                    0                               0%


Torres's strike partner:

This is only based on the 4-4-2, or 4-4-1-1, 4-3-1-2, 4-1-2-1-2, 3-4-1-2 and 3-2-3-2 formations. This is assuming he will have only one partner.

There were 145 people who went for 2 up front, in one way or another. All of them went for Torres of course, but who partnered him? Babel and Crouch were the most popular, followed by Kuyt. There were a handful of votes for Gerrard, Benayoun, Kewell and Voronin too.

Babel              53            37.9%
Crouch            52            35.9%
Kuyt                22            15.2%
Gerrard            9               6.2%
Benayoun        6               4.1%
Kewell              2               1.4%
Voronin            1               0.7%


Most popular central defence pairing:

This is only based on 4 at the back.

Carragher and Agger            251               93.3%     
Agger and Hyypia                    16                5.9%
Carragher and Hyypia               2                0.7%

Obviously, Carragher and Agger are the most popular. But it's a bit of a surprise that Sami has even got in some of the teams given his lack of pace these days.


Most popular back four unit:

Finnan (RB)           Carragher            Agger                Arbeloa (LB)                       142 votes
Arbeloa (RB)          Carragher            Agger                Aurelio (LB)                        57 votes
Finnan (RB)           Carragher            Agger                 Aurelio (LB)                        29 votes
Finnan (RB)           Carragher            Agger                    Riise (LB)                        15 votes
Arbeloa (RB)         Carragher             Agger                    Riise (LB)                        7 votes

The back four of Finnan, Carragher, Agger and Arbeloa were the most popular, with about half the votes. Aurelio is well ahead of Riise in the popularity stakes. Also interesting that more people would pick Arbeloa ahead of Finnan at right back (assuming Arbeloa is not left back).


Arbeloa's best position:

Given that Arbeloa is right footed, it says a lot that 148 people chose him at left back, compared to 70 people choosing him in his natural position at right back. I think this says a lot about our left back options, but also his ability to play at left back. By the way, nobody chose him at centre back - not in a 4 at the back situation anyway.


Left back position:

The most popular left back was Arbeloa. Followed by Aurelio, and then Riise. Someone put Gerrard down as left back, which I was nearly forced to include. But he also put LeTallec up front so I had to discount his entry.

Arbeloa             148
Aurelio                93
Riise                   28


Right back position:

Almost a straight fight between Arbeloa and Finnan. But again, someone put Gerrard as a right back in a 4-4-2. Finnan walks off with this one with about 74% of you putting him as first choice right back.

Finnan                   197
Arbeloa                  70
Gerrard                   1   


Gerrard's best position:

This was quite hard to work out, because there were loads of different formations - and the fact that he got in every team. So I only used the four most popular formations (261 teams) to work this out. And I'm gonna treat the 4-2-3-1 the same as 4-1-2-2-1 here to simplify things a bit.

Central Attacking Midifelder in a 4-2-3-1               105                 40.2%
Right midfield in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1                         81                  31.0%
Central midfielder in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1                  45                  17.2%
On the right in a front 3                                          16                    6.1%
Up front behind the main striker                               9                    3.4%
Defensive midfielder in a in a 4-2-3-1                       2                    0.8%
Right back in a 4-4-2                                                 1                    0.4%


The defensive midfielders in a 4-2-3-1:

This is the only popular formation that uses 2 defensive midfielders.

Out of the 102 entries, 99 of you went for the pairing of Alonso and Mascherano. Nobody went for Gerrard and Mascherano - and nobody put Sissoko in this position at all.

Alonso + Mascherano                         99                         
Alonso + Gerrard                                  2
Lucas + Mascherano                            1


Benayoun's best position:

I wish David Pleat would learn how to say his name properly. Again, I've had to simplify things - I've only used some formations and I've grouped some formations together to find some patterns. Benayoun only appeared as first choice in 56 of the 273 teams, but his most popular positions are as follows:

On the right in a front 3                             19
Right midfield in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1            13
Left midfield in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1               9
On the left in a front 3                                4
In the middle of the 3 in a 4-2-3-1              2


Most popular 4 man midfield:

This is just based on 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1. There were loads of different combinations of 4 players, so there were only a few combinations that stood out. All the rest were a bit scattered.

Gerrard        Mascherano      Alonso             Kewell             61 votes
Gerrard        Mascherano      Alonso             Babel               13 votes
Pennant         Gerrard            Alonso            Kewell               7 votes
Pennant         Gerrard           Mascherano     Kewell               6 votes


Most popular attacking trio:

This includes a 3 different formations: 4-2-3-1, 4-1-2-2-1 and 4-3-2-1. I was going to call this "front three", but it's not alwayts like that - the wingers in Rafa's 4-3-3 (known as 4-3-2-1 here) do not seem to be positioned the same as wingers in a 4-2-3-1. Anyway, this is what was most popular:

Kewell (LW)                                 Babel (RW)
                               Torres

This got 65 votes out of the 127 teams who picked one of the above formations. I was going to do a list of the next popular trios, but there were loads of different combination and I didn't think any really stood out as second and third choices.


Babel's best position:

Although he's still dead young and seems to be just showing potential at the moment, Babel has been picked as first choice in 197 of the 273 teams. That's a high percentage of teams given the criteria of this survey. It wasn't based on future potential - it was based on injury free and top form. Anyway, I think that speaks volumes of the confidence people have him, but also the quality of his competition. His most popular postions are:

Left Wing in an attacking trio                      63
Striker                                                         53
Right Wing in an attacking trio                    34
Left Wing in a 4 man midfield                      28
Right Wing in a 4 man midfield                    13
Middle of the 3 behind the striker                 6


The most popular formation and line up:

Even though 4-4-2 was the most popular formation, there were loads of variations in team selection. Mainly because people all had a different opinion who should play up front with Torres. So the most popular team selection ended up being this 4-2-3-1, a total of 29 people suggested this. Which is not much when you think about it. Out of 273 people, only 29 people selected this as the most popular starting line up. Would Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea's most popular starting XI only be picked by less than 10% of all supporters?

                                Reina
Finnan         Agger             Carra           Arbeloa
               Mascherano       Alonso
   Babel                   Gerrard               Kewell
                                Torres

And if I had to work out who would be on the bench, I would guess at:

Itandje
Aurelio
Benayoun
Crouch
Pennant

And Riise and Kuyt would make the bench in a Euro game.

----------------------------
Ripped from RAWK with thanks to whoever did this as they obviously went to a lot of trouble,


I think the main thing that this post proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that the people on RAWK know even less about football than even we do. How could ANYONE in their right mind go for that formation.

It also shows how short we are of quality wide players with Kewell and Babel getting the votes. Kewell is haedly back to full fitness and for me Babel is not a winger.

by JoeTerp » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:20 pm

you should have put ripped from RAWK at the start, because I was like NO way are there 273 formations in this thread 

by VeDrIx » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:07 pm

by spion » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:01 pm

by JoeTerp » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:06 pm