Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:52 am

You could always compare cup final records :-

Houllier never lost one
Rafa has only a 50% record

Then again, getting to the final is an achievment and Rafa has got us to 6 finals League Cup, CL (2), European Super Cup ,World Club Championship, FA Cup.

Houllier only 5 League Cup(2), FA Cup, UEFA Cup, European Super Cup

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:57 am

s@int wrote:You could always compare cup final records :-

Houllier never lost one
Rafa has only a 50% record

Then again, getting to the final is an achievment and Rafa has got us to 6 finals League Cup, CL (2), European Super Cup ,World Club Championship, FA Cup.

Houllier only 5 League Cup(2), FA Cup, UEFA Cup, European Super Cup

Tongue in cheek, I hope, mate, because I think it's obvious that cups are not created equal. Reaching the Champions League final twice in three years--let alone winning it in his first season with the club--is a massive feather in Rafa's cap. I'm not interested in slagging Houllier but, IMO, his cup achievements are no where near that level.

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:14 am

i find heskey is better then crouch

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:21 am

Not really mate, admittedly beating Birmingham is not quite on a par with beating A.C. Milan

but we did beat some great sides in finals at or near their peak under Houllier. If Houllier had left at the end of the season 2001/2 we would all be saying he was a great manager. Unfortunately he stayed on and has left most of us with decidely mixed emotions.

To go a full season unbeaten in any cup was an incredible feat, maybe as incredible as winning the CL but without the prestige?

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:56 am

s@int wrote:Not really mate, admittedly beating Birmingham is not quite on a par with beating A.C. Milan but we did beat some great sides in finals at or near their peak under Houllier. If Houllier had left at the end of the season 2001/2 we would all be saying he was a great manager. Unfortunately he stayed on and has left most of us with decidely mixed emotions.

To go a full season unbeaten in any cup was an incredible feat, maybe as incredible as winning the CL but without the prestige?

Not even close for me, mate, sorry--especially considering the injuries Rafa had to deal with during the CL winning season and some of the players he had to get the best out of to get us there and win it (not to mention the calibre of teams we faced). This is my last word on this though, because, as I've said: I don't want to slag Houllier nor do I want to measure Rafa's success against Houllier's. Suffice to say that I think the Spaniard has taken us to another level than Ged. Others see it differently and I respect that--I only wade in when Rafa's achievements are, IMO, given too little praise.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:22 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:Not really mate, admittedly beating Birmingham is not quite on a par with beating A.C. Milan but we did beat some great sides in finals at or near their peak under Houllier. If Houllier had left at the end of the season 2001/2 we would all be saying he was a great manager. Unfortunately he stayed on and has left most of us with decidely mixed emotions.

To go a full season unbeaten in any cup was an incredible feat, maybe as incredible as winning the CL but without the prestige?

Not even close for me, mate, sorry--especially considering the injuries Rafa had to deal with during the CL winning season and some of the players he had to get the best out of to get us there and win it (not to mention the calibre of teams we faced). This is my last word on this though, because, as I've said: I don't want to slag Houllier nor do I want to measure Rafa's success against Houllier's. Suffice to say that I think the Spaniard has taken us to another level than Ged. Others see it differently and I respect that--I only wade in when Rafa's achievements are, IMO, given too little praise.

"Not even close"

Houllier had a great cup record, so "not even close" IMO is given GH too little praise.

We have won Europes biggest prize under Rafa, which is an amazing achievment. Also the FA cup, oh and we lost another CL final, which sorry to be blunt means sweet fa to me IMO. What did Shankly say ..... about runners up ?

TBH at this stage and like I said before, the progress hasnt been dramatic. And TBH Houllier and Rafa are probably on par at the moment for me, I cant sit here and say hand on heart that Rafa has achieved more in his short time here than Houllier did in his tenure.

When excusing Rafa people ALWAYS go on about the dross of Houlliers he had to clear out. Short memories but Houllier at to shaw up a terrible defence that leaked and sunk quiker than the titanic herself. There was no defender back then who was strong in the air, we were useless. He also had to shrug off the "Spice boy" image which the press had a field day with, and pull a few of the players into line.

Of course he went onto make a few bad signings and whatever, and the main difference between him and Rafa thank goodness is that Rafa can admit his mistakes in the transfer market (Kuyt though I'm not sure he'd be ballsy enough to considering the amount paid for him).

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

The one thing which holds Rafa back IMO which would help him elude comparisons with Houllier. Is although he can admit his mistakes in the transfer market, its not quite so apparent in his selection and decision making on the pitch.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:44 pm

Excellent post, BM.

Agree with a lot of that.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:12 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:Not really mate, admittedly beating Birmingham is not quite on a par with beating A.C. Milan but we did beat some great sides in finals at or near their peak under Houllier. If Houllier had left at the end of the season 2001/2 we would all be saying he was a great manager. Unfortunately he stayed on and has left most of us with decidely mixed emotions.

To go a full season unbeaten in any cup was an incredible feat, maybe as incredible as winning the CL but without the prestige?

Not even close for me, mate, sorry--especially considering the injuries Rafa had to deal with during the CL winning season and some of the players he had to get the best out of to get us there and win it (not to mention the calibre of teams we faced). This is my last word on this though, because, as I've said: I don't want to slag Houllier nor do I want to measure Rafa's success against Houllier's. Suffice to say that I think the Spaniard has taken us to another level than Ged. Others see it differently and I respect that--I only wade in when Rafa's achievements are, IMO, given too little praise.

"Not even close"

Houllier had a great cup record, so "not even close" IMO is given GH too little praise.

We have won Europes biggest prize under Rafa, which is an amazing achievment. Also the FA cup, oh and we lost another CL final, which sorry to be blunt means sweet fa to me IMO. What did Shankly say ..... about runners up ?

TBH at this stage and like I said before, the progress hasnt been dramatic. And TBH Houllier and Rafa are probably on par at the moment for me, I cant sit here and say hand on heart that Rafa has achieved more in his short time here than Houllier did in his tenure.

When excusing Rafa people ALWAYS go on about the dross of Houlliers he had to clear out. Short memories but Houllier at to shaw up a terrible defence that leaked and sunk quiker than the titanic herself. There was no defender back then who was strong in the air, we were useless. He also had to shrug off the "Spice boy" image which the press had a field day with, and pull a few of the players into line.

Of course he went onto make a few bad signings and whatever, and the main difference between him and Rafa thank goodness is that Rafa can admit his mistakes in the transfer market (Kuyt though I'm not sure he'd be ballsy enough to considering the amount paid for him).

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

The one thing which holds Rafa back IMO which would help him elude comparisons with Houllier. Is although he can admit his mistakes in the transfer market, its not quite so apparent in his selection and decision making on the pitch.

Okay, this is my last word on the subject.

Houllier achieved some fantastic things during his tenure--most especially, some great cup successes and some very, very good signings that we are still enjoying the benefit of in many cases.

Having said that, winning the Champions League in his first season in charge and getting us to the final in his third season in charge (and of course its an achievement getting to that final--especially when you get past Barcelona and Chelsea to do it) gives Rafa the edge in terms of cup success, in my book. To put it another way, winning the Champions League vastly overshadows (yes, vastly overshadows) winning any other cup as an achievement by virtue of the competition you have to overcome to do so. I'd even go so far as to say that just making the final of Champions League overshadows (I'll drop the vastly for this one

) winning the Carling Cup and perhaps even edges winning the UEFA Cup (the FA Cup is a bit special as a competition so I won't go as far as that). That's my view. No disrespect to Houllier's cup achievements but, IMHO, Rafa's are more impressive.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:21 pm

Champions League overshadows (I'll drop the vastly for this one ) winning the Carling Cup and perhaps even edges winning the UEFA Cup (the FA Cup is a bit special as a competition so I won't go as far as that). That's my view. No disrespect to Houllier's cup achievements but, IMHO, Rafa's are more impressive.

I'd rather have a trophy in the cabinet than be a runner up of a cup final, also didnt we knock out Barca, and Roma on the way to our UEFA cup success ?

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:26 pm

I think what we have here is a classic case of 'whoever is currently at the helm is better than his predecesor' as even remotely compairing Rafa to Houllier will mean the rosey red glasses have to be taken off.

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:47 pm

People who suggest Houllier performed some kind of miracle in turning Liverpool around clearly don't realise that Evans did a pretty good job. He finished 3rd TWICE and 4th TWICE - one of those 4th places was level on points with 2nd. At the time Houllier took over he spent lots of money. In 1997/8 our most expensive team was worth £27.450m, by 2000/1 it was worth twice that.

And quite what relevance what he did at the BEGINNING of his reign has on what he left is a mystery. Rafa may still have some players but what did he have to get rid of? Biscan, Smicer, Henchoz (past his best), Diouf, Cisse, Baros, Heskey, Dudek, Traore and plenty more. Three of the best players he inherited were Gerrard, Carragher and Owen of whom he had to sell Owen and all were developing long before Houllier took over. What single top class local lad has come through the ranks since 2000?

Has Rafa surpassed Houllier's achievements already? I guess in terms of cup success yes, a Champions League trumps anything Houllier managed and even runners-up is arguably more impressive. In terms of the league I think Houllier managed one second place finish, Rafa finished third with more points showing how many more points are now needed. And of course my point about most managers needing four seasons to win the league has plenty to draw from it - how exactly is Rafa going to win the league? There are two options - match the big spenders and hope Rafa buys quality enough or hope he masterminds and underdog win like Arsene did. Unless he discovers a magic formula or suddenly becomes laden with cash then I reckon it's anyone's guess if and when he might manage either

by **Sabre** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:52 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Champions League overshadows (I'll drop the vastly for this one ) winning the Carling Cup and perhaps even edges winning the UEFA Cup (the FA Cup is a bit special as a competition so I won't go as far as that). That's my view. No disrespect to Houllier's cup achievements but, IMHO, Rafa's are more impressive.

I'd rather have a trophy in the cabinet than be a runner up of a cup final, also didnt we knock out Barca, and Roma on the way to our UEFA cup success ?

Remove the grey glasses, we beat Barcelona in the UEFA when they were in total crisis, where as we beat Barcelona in the CL when they were the current champions.

I guess that the job done in CL in this 3 years will be appreciated in time, once we realise that clubs like Manchester United only won it twice and Chelsea never won it. It's not the fúcking milk cup.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:56 pm

People who suggest Houllier performed some kind of miracle in turning Liverpool around

Who said that.

People think Houllier waltz in and every thing was in place for him. It wasnt quite as simple as that, nor was it simple to go undefeated in three cup competitions in one year. If you prefer a runners up medal to a winners albeit UEFA thats your perogative.

But lets not forget Rafa has spent fortunes too, and hasnt even remotely brought us to the league title, for me Houlliers cv at Liverpool, league and cup would be the better of both managers ... currently.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:03 pm

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Champions League overshadows (I'll drop the vastly for this one ) winning the Carling Cup and perhaps even edges winning the UEFA Cup (the FA Cup is a bit special as a competition so I won't go as far as that). That's my view. No disrespect to Houllier's cup achievements but, IMHO, Rafa's are more impressive.

I'd rather have a trophy in the cabinet than be a runner up of a cup final, also didnt we knock out Barca, and Roma on the way to our UEFA cup success ?

Remove the grey glasses, we beat Barcelona in the UEFA when they were in total crisis, where as we beat Barcelona in the CL when they were the current champions.

I guess that the job done in CL in this 3 years will be appreciated in time, once we realise that clubs like Manchester United only won it twice and Chelsea never won it. It's not the fúcking milk cup.

I do know that as prior to that, we'd won it FOUR times.

I dont expect you to appreciate anything other than Rafa's tenure.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:10 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I think what we have here is a classic case of 'whoever is currently at the helm is better than his predecesor' as even remotely compairing Rafa to Houllier will mean the rosey red glasses have to be taken off.

Why? Are you so convinced that Houllier achieved more in his first three seasons than Rafa has? I'm most certainly not and I don't think I'm alone in that. Again, I take nothing away from what Houllier achieved but at the absolutely very least, Rafa has matched those achievements (I obvously think he's gone beyond them). How can anyone deny that reaching two Champions League finals is not an achievement? How can anyone not think that the most competitive cup competition in club football is on par with the Carling Cup? People always complain about the "rose tinted specs" but is it not worse to casually dismiss achievements that virtually every other club in European football would practically kill for? I just can't fathom the kind of revisionist history that's going on at the moment--the kind where somehow our successes in the Champions League count very little in our evaluations of Rafa. By all means criticize how we're doing (and how we've done) in the league. Hell, go ahead and ask whether he's taken us as far as he can and we might need to think about a change if he can't sort out are form. But, FFS, don't pretend that reaching the final last year wasn't something incredibly special--even if we came up short--and that winning the bloody thing in 2005 wasn't one of the most glorious moments in the history of Liverpool Football Club.

Look, I get it. Some people want to protect the achievements of Houllier's early years against those who would dismiss them, given how things went under him at the end. I'm trying to do the exact same thing with Rafa. Some might think I'm diminishing Houllier's cup successes to do it but I assure you that's not my intent. All I'm saying is that in the hierarchy of cups contested in club football everyone associated with the game recognizes the Champions League as the biggest. When comparing Houllier's cup successes to Rafa's, we shouldn't lose sight of that fact.

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