Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:12 am

So what progress if any have we made since Rafa came? The easy answer is 2 CL finals (1 win) an FA cup win and a League cup final. However we were a decent cup side even under Houllier, and while there's no way we would have won the CL under Houllier, I am pretty sure we would have picked up a cup or two along the way.

Its the league that should show the real progress (if any)we have made. Under Houllier we were a top 4 team, failing to achieve this only once during his reign, excluding the split season with Evans. We are still a top 4 side, again failing only once, but I would argue we are a top 4 side with a great deal more comfort now than then, even more so if you take into account the raised standards over the last few years.

So the big question is, have we closed the gap on the top teams in the intervening years........ maybe not in terms of points or results against the top sides, but the bar has been significantly raised over the last few years, and we have at least kept pace if not narrowed the gap.

One stat that surprises me is how many of Houlliers players are still regulars 4 years later. Finnan, Hyypia, Carra, Riise, Gerrard not forgetting the ever elusive Kewell(regular on the injury list anyway)Half a team of Houllier players!

The obvious improvements have been Reina, Alonso, Mascherano and Torres, with Agger arguably not yet quite as good as Sami was but obviously much better than Sami now.

Reina against Dudek, no contest Reina would win in a heartbeat.

Alonso against Hamann would be a battle of the titans, but Rafa's man would just about shade it in my opinion.

Mascherano against Biscan while not a walk over would certainly be classed as a mismatch, with Rafa's man walking away with the award.

Owen against Torres would be a difficult one to call, but Owen was no longer the same player and doubts were being raised about his attitude long before he decided to jump/desert the ship. Close but no cigar for Houllier

The tricky part would be trying to decide between the rest. Heskey against Kuyt
Murphy against Voronin
Diouf against Benayoun
Baros against Crouch

I have no doubt we have a much stronger squad now, the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, Traore etc just wouldn't get a look in now thank god against the likes of Babel, Aurelio, Sissoko.

Have we made progress? I think we have but maybe not as much as we would have hoped.

Maybe the biggest progress we have made is in our manager.

Rafa against Houllier no contest

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:59 am

Good post S@int, good questions.

I am probably going to get slated but here is my honest opnion.

We were a top four team under Houllier, we still are under Rafa.

When Houllier was manager Manchester United and Arsenal dominated the league, now under Rafa it appears Chelsea and Man U have dominated. No question the standards have been raised over the last few seasons, but we now have the money to sign the right players to raise our own standards. So for me it pretty much balances out, maybe apart from the first season Chelsea brought everyone and the title, but apart from that excuses are like @rseholes everyone's got one.

So the big question is, have we closed the gap on the top teams in the intervening years

Quite simply NO. Not for me, though Rafa still hasnt had the time Houllier had.

Heskey against Kuyt
Murphy against Voronin
Diouf against Benayoun
Baros against Crouch

Murphy is better than Voronin, Crouch better than Baros but really their still the equvilant of the Emile Heskey's and Diouffs etc etc back in their day. i.e Heskey is today's Kuyt. Yes he is a better player, so while we have improved on that, the likes of Chelsea and Man U sign Drogba and Rooney. Heskey back then was compaired to Henry and Van Nistleroy or Yorke.

Can you see what I'm getting at ? We have good squad players, yet ManU and Chelsea have better first teamers.

We now have Torres, back then we had Owen.

We now have Alonso back then we had Hamman.

We now have Agger back then we had Henchoz.

We now have Pennant back then we had Murphy.

We now have Kuyt back then we had Heskey.

We now have Crouch back then we had Fowler.

We now have Voronin back then we had Anelka, Litmanen, Mellor or Baros

We now have Momo back then we had Diao lol !

We now have Benayoun back then we had Diouff.

We now have Mashca back then we had McAllister.

There's more but I cannot think, but the rest are players like Finnan, Hyypia and Riisse's. Like you said players Houllier bought.

What I am trying to get at with that list, is that for all of Houlliers players up there, Rafa's are their equivalant of today, okay so a few maybe better but its visa versa aswell.

Had we of carried on from the demolition of Derby and continued to impress right up until now I would probably of said yes we've improved. Last season we went back wards. I wouldnt say there has been major improvement in the league.

At the moment TBH we're Houlliers parallel of yesteryear In my eyes, we've stayed with the pack but like Houlliers side havent overtaken them.

So for me its pretty much the same, as you were.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:09 am

Basically the progress can be seen in the cups, and the players.

The players sees the squad as somewhere were to win titles, that's why they sign up long contracts, and players like Torres preffer Liverpool rather than Manchester United. They feel the squad is strong enough to win things.

In the recent past though, Liverpool had to see how their good players were leaving the club to Madrid (Owen, McManaman) or having serious doubts to leave (Gerrard in Rafa's first year).

That's basically the difference.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:14 am

Basically the progress can be seen in the cups, and the players.

I dont think it was coincedental you left out the league ?

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:16 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Basically the progress can be seen in the cups, and the players.

I dont think it was coincedental you left out the league ?

No, it's not coincidental. The league is the thing we must win now and that hasn't happened. Still, there are differences aswell, thank you for remembering

Another difference is that at the start of the season people have more expectations to win the title than ever in the last 8 years.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:32 am

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Basically the progress can be seen in the cups, and the players.

I dont think it was coincedental you left out the league ?

No, it's not coincidental. The league is the thing we must win now and that hasn't happened. Still, there are differences aswell, thank you for remembering

Another difference is that at the start of the season people have more expectations to win the title than ever in the last 8 years.

Not sure about that Sabre, after we came 4th, 3rd then second ,I think everyone was sure we would win it the next season. Certainly more than than thought it at the begining of this season.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:34 am

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Basically the progress can be seen in the cups, and the players.

I dont think it was coincedental you left out the league ?

No, it's not coincidental. The league is the thing we must win now and that hasn't happened. Still, there are differences aswell, thank you for remembering

Another difference is that at the start of the season people have more expectations to win the title than ever in the last 8 years.

Not sure about that Sabre, after we came 4th, 3rd then second ,I think everyone was sure we would win it the next season. Certainly more than than thought it at the begining of this season.

Fair enough then, in the Houllier, Souness and Evans eras I followed the club through Spanish press, and I didn't have the direct insight of Liverpool fans in this kind of boards, I just was talking about a perception I had reading the boards this years. But that's a fair enough comment.

by **Paul C** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:40 am

Houllier was in charge for approx 7 years, he won everything apart from the CL and Prem, his downfall was the money he spent on sh!te and he kind of lost the plot in his last six months in charge, I remember his rant at one of the press conferences

I think that Rafa has a lot stronger squad and spent his transfer kitty well but I also think that United and Chelsea are at another level to when GH was in charge, one question I would ask you guys is do you think that we have got any closer to challenging for the Prem under Rafa compared to under GH?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:48 am

Not really sure what you mean mate. If you mean are we closer under Rafa than we would have been if Houllier had stayed......... I would say definately. If you mean are we any closer under Rafa now than we were under Houllier then....... possibly, but we had a good record against the other top teams then, our record with Rafa is pretty poor against the top sides(in the league), overall I would say we have maintained the gap without really closing it.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:59 am

It's a fair quetion but the answer is easy, we have made huge progress under rafa. Forget about the Champions League for a moment as that just clouds up the comparison, stick to the league and we are a far better team. Rafa has bought well and built a squad of players who are capable of matching the best. A couple more years under Houllier and we would have been a top ten team by now.

The question for now of course is, can Rafa take us further and make us into a title winning, or at the very least title challenging team? I know I've been harping on about it for a few years now, but for me it really is crucial that as we go forward we begin to formulate a plan for success, and how we are going to achieve our goals.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:27 am

It's a fair quetion but the answer is easy, we have made huge progress under rafa. Forget about the Champions League for a moment as that just clouds up the comparison, stick to the league and we are a far better team. Rafa has bought well and built a squad of players who are capable of matching the best.

Matching the best ?

Our record like Saint says under Houliier was better, when we played the other top three of the time.

Under Rafa its been considerably poor.

And I really do not understand where "huge progress" in the league comes from.

IMHO Mick you've just spoke absolute bollox.

People around here (not aiming this at you Mick) dont half love moving the goal posts. The usually cries from the optimists are 'Rafa hasnt had the time', then like yourself its we have made huge progress ?

Houllier was here seven years, Rafa three. Honestly there isnt huge progress we cant say that at this stage, four years time yes I'm they'll be "huge progress" but as of yet for me we have definately not made so far any much more of an impact on the league as of yet.

by **Rockthekop** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:26 pm

No I don't think we are any closer to the title under Rafa than Houllier, at least not yet. At the end of the day that's what he's going to be judged on despite having a fantastic european record. I think that we have a better squad of players now but I would argue that we need more quality still. Houllier had money to spend but spent it badly mostly. Rafa has bought some very good players such as Torres, Mash, Alonso, Babel, Agger, Reina, Lucas possibly. Rafa needs to be ruthless and get rid of or at least change those who aren't doing the business. It doesn't help when the team is so defensively minded either. It's great if you can score first and not concede but we keep phucking it up like yesterday against Arsenal. What use is it being unbeaten if you can't win games. Being hard to beat is just the start of a Premiership winning team, you have to win the games.

by **Owzat** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:53 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Matching the best ?

Our record like Saint says under Houliier was better, when we played the other top three of the time.

Under Rafa its been considerably poor.

We can get 96 points off the teams outside the top four and only 18 from the mancs, Arsenal and Chelsea. However our form against those three teams has been decidedly average in Rafa's three and a bit seasons in charge. I do have the precise stats but not to hand, however I do know the following are true :

- we've lost 9 out of 9 away to Chelsea, man utd and Arsenal in the league
- we've yet to beat the mancs in the league under Rafa
- we've beaten Chelsea only once in the league under Rafa
- we have picked up 10 points out of 12 against Arsenal at Anfield, only dropped points coming yesterday

I heard some pundit say that the title is won or lost in matches between the top four - boll axe. The mancs lost home and away to the goners and won the title while the goners finished fourth. We, I believe, were the only side of the top four to beat Chelsea, the points are split and you can gain some advantage by winning home and away or indeed picking up four points, BUT the hard work is winning week in week out to pick up 27+ wins and land the title. You certainly don't win the league with 18 points which is the most you could pick up from the 'big four' games.

As for the main Topic question, are we progressing? Not really, certainly not in terms of the league. Rafa took over a top four side and we still are a top four side. We're better in Europe than we were, other than that we won cups under Houllier - don't forget 'the treble' of 2001 - and we've one the FA Cup with Rafa. You can't really legislate for European success, it is nice but are we going to be happy if we become the only club to specialise in Europe?

Let's look at it this way, Arsenal reached the Champions League final in 2006 (and lost), they won FA last season and this season they are looking strong contenders for the title. We won the Champions League in 2005, improved in league form in 2005/6 and have lost our way a little with a Champions League final defeat and no trophies. Maybe next season we will emulate the goners having lost a CL final, won nothing and then be top the next season after ten games but somehow I suspect we won't.

by **burjennio** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:18 pm

Let's look at it this way, Arsenal reached the Champions League final in 2006 (and lost), they won FA last season and this season they are looking strong contenders for the title. We won the Champions League in 2005, improved in league form in 2005/6 and have lost our way a little with a Champions League final defeat and no trophies. Maybe next season we will emulate the goners having lost a CL final, won nothing and then be top the next season after ten games but somehow I suspect we won't.

Er, Chelsea won the FA Cup last season mate, Arsenal won squat

by **ConnO'var** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:47 pm

Interesting question. To make sure that we are all discussing with facts and not perceptions, I've put together this chart.
Based on whatever available data I could find.

Let's see what you guys think once you see all the statistics.

BTW.... If anything is not correct, please tell me and I'll make the necessary corrections

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