Liverpool FC Forum

by **puroresu** » Fri May 25, 2007 11:29 am

It doesnt matter about the allocation as there will still be those who cant get a ticket who decide robbing another fan is worth it or rushing the gate to get in. The only real solution is for the fans to police themselves and try and get rid of the scum element.

UEFA must have been so relieved to see a Liverpool v Milan final. LFC v UTD would of been crazy.

by **puroresu** » Fri May 25, 2007 11:55 am

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premiership/liverpool/article1837968.ece

Stadium free-for-all that could have been a ticket for disaster
Tony Evans in Athens

All over Athens in the early hours of yesterday morning, small groups of Liverpool fans were meeting up and commiserating with each other. There were a lot of hugs, rueful smiles and the same words exchanged again and again. "It's all right. We only lost. Nobody died."

Three hours after the game, Liverpool fans were much more ebullient than the AC Milan supporters. Scouse laughter was ringing around the bars of the Greek capital as thoughts turned to home and next season. Memories of Hillsborough, where defeats on the pitch were put into perspective in the most horrible manner, ensure that there will be few tears after Liverpool lose a mere match.

But yesterday morning there was little to laugh about. William Gaillard, Uefa's mouthpiece, has laid the blame for the chaos outside the Olympic Stadium squarely on the shoulders of Liverpool fans. Uefa does not need the help of anyone to make a mess of an event, but the controversy throws up a number of questions for Liverpool supporters and, sadly, gives ammunition to those whose version of events in Sheffield on April 15, 1989 involves ticketless fans storming the gates.

Yes, some people wearing "Hillsborough Justice Campaign" badges probably rushed police lines yesterday in the quest to get into the ground. On the face of it, that would appear to be a crass conflict of ideologies. However, there are few parallels between Wednesday in Athens and that dreadful Saturday in Yorkshire.

In 1989, there were plenty of tickets available for the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest. Lord Justice Taylor's report into the tragedy found that the design of the terracing was fatally flawed and that South Yorkshire police made a series of mistakes that led to the 96 deaths.

Liverpool fans were not to blame for the disaster and those who, like me, stepped over dead bodies that day resent any suggestion that we were the guilty parties. Sadly, few people remember the Taylor Report. They do recall the stories of drunken, ticketless fans that dominated the media in the aftermath of the disaster, however. The stories were untrue, but people still believe the ludicrous lies that had us stealing from our own dead.

Athens was very different. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ticket allocation - and few could argue that 17,000 was enough to satisfy Liverpool fans' demand - there were people at the stadium who were determined to get into the match by whatever means necessary.

In recent years, there have been a number of incidents - mostly unreported - where Liverpool supporters have charged turnstiles in massive numbers, setting up dangerous situations.

At Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi-final two years ago, a very dangerous crush ensued when Scousers broke through the gates. Away to PSV Eindhoven in the quarter-final this season, there were frightening moments outside the ground and the behaviour of ticketless fans provoked some harsh exchanges on the internet forums.

It is a problem that will not go away. "Bunking-in" is not just the last resort of the desperate fan; there are a substantial minority among Liverpool's travelling support who see getting into a game without paying as a badge of honour. A number of books written about the experiences of Liverpool fans in the 1970s and 1980s have mythologised bunking-in and the younger generation, seeking to emulate their elders, have little compunction about sneaking into a ground and occupying someone else's seat.

Mostly, they are young Scousers - and those with out-of-town accents and tickets who try to get their seats back can find themselves in unpleasant confrontations.

As the game moves upmarket and seeks to keep its traditional constituency outside the stadium while the corporate fans feast like kings inside, bunking-in will become a bigger problem.

Some Liverpool supporters even see it as a guerrilla act, the ultimate revenge of the disenfranchised fan. Priced out of the game? That's OK, it's free to the bunkers and they have the added satisfaction of making sure that they are not putting any money in the filthy-rich coffers of football's billionaires. It is a class war statement for some.

But what they forget is that such behaviour gives the police licence to crack heads - and invariably, like on Wednesday night, it's not the Scallies and bunkers who suffer. Having seen their lines swamped earlier in the day, the police were taking no chances with a second humiliation and took out their frustration on people with tickets.

That horde swarming over the gates are the flip side of the fanaticism we saw at Anfield against Barcelona and Chelsea. The bunkers want to get into the ground and all the police in Athens could not stop them. It might take a disaster to do that.

If it does, then it will be a very different tragedy to Hillsborough. Because then we - the men and boys whose desperation to get into the game makes us take wild risks - will have to shoulder the blame. And that's too high a price to pay to see a football match.

— Tony Evans is Deputy Football Editor of The Times and author of Far Foreign Land: Pride and Passion the Liverpool Way .

by **supersub** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:05 pm

WILL COMMENT ON THIS LATER

by **grayghost** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:32 pm

That stadium was never made to host a football match. If there is a way for a fan to get in to the stadium with out paying then some idoitswill try.
You hardly see this at outher games because the entrance to the stadiums are made for football and it's harder for a bunnker to gain entry.

by **puroresu** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:40 pm

"In recent years, there have been a number of incidents mostly unreported where Liverpool supporters have charged turnstiles in massive numbers, setting up dangerous situations."

That quote suggests it doesnt matter what the stadium is.

by **stmichael** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:45 pm

Correct policing = no crush

There are parralells with Hillsborough, ticketless fans are not one of them. Poor choice of stadium, inadequate stadium, refusal of authorities to accept their share of the blame, immediate response from UEFA blaming fans.

If tickets had been checked properly then the problem would not have been as bad. Although I've said before the gobsh#tes who caused the crush at the gates should be ashamed of themselves.

by **puroresu** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:53 pm

stmichael wrote:Correct policing = no crush

There are parralells with Hillsborough, ticketless fans are not one of them. Poor choice of stadium, inadequate stadium, refusal of authorities to accept their share of the blame, immediate response from UEFA blaming fans.

If tickets had been checked properly then the problem would not have been as bad. Although I've said before the gobsh#tes who caused the crush at the gates should be ashamed of themselves.

Agree. To hear stories of officials not even checking tickets is crazy.

by **grayghost** » Fri May 25, 2007 1:02 pm

puroresu wrote:"In recent years, there have been a number of incidents mostly unreported where Liverpool supporters have charged turnstiles in massive numbers, setting up dangerous situations."

That quote suggests it doesnt matter what the stadium is.

It happens but not a lot there was no way that stadium was right for that game with that demand should have bean policed better with a check point a bit further away from the stadium maybe.

by **BOODIDDY** » Fri May 25, 2007 6:18 pm

correct policing= no crushes.

That should be true but those who had tickets on weds were patient, it was the yobs who caused the problems. I really felt scared for some fans. Ayoung lad at the side of me no older than ten screaming at his dad that he was gonna die.

That for me, puts it all into perspective. Its football ffs. No one should be put in that situation.

I seen too much the other night and it saddened me to follow this great club. once inside the stadium the atmosphere was great agian. but we have to stop this behaviour.

At the crush my mum was pushed over and some t.wat stole her ticket. However, a police-man seen it and made sure she got in to the stadium. That just isn't on. I must admit also that most of the thugs were scousers. Im a oot, and i ain't condoning all scousers. But the main thugs were scouse. I aint going down that route but we must as a club stop these scallies.

by **Emerald Red** » Fri May 25, 2007 7:51 pm

puroresu wrote:It doesnt matter about the allocation as there will still be those who cant get a ticket who decide robbing another fan is worth it or rushing the gate to get in. The only real solution is for the fans to police themselves and try and get rid of the scum element.

UEFA must have been so relieved to see a Liverpool v Milan final. LFC v UTD would of been crazy.

We seen eliments of this happening on Sky Sports News when it showed certain pictures of incidents outside before the game. I recall one supporter being punched, then running into a crowd of fellas, where he was punched again and told to F off. He then ran over to a spot where he took his top off for fear of being recognised again. I'm not saying it was anyone else's right to punch someone else, but if he was out to start sh*t, then he deserved it.

At the end of the day, 80% of the blame lies with UEFA. To hold a final of this calibre in a stadium like that, with 2 of the most followed and decorated sides in Europe is nothing short of short sightedness. Almost blindness.

by **destro** » Fri May 25, 2007 8:06 pm

Heard this from a guy on the radio tonight, his suggestion at what can be done in the future to prevent this sort of thing happening

UEFA should look at building a Champions league final stadium in one of the lesser known countries.

They should also station police at all major airports flying out to that country and make fans travelling to the game show their final ticket aswell as their plane ticket, no ticket no flight.

And how about sending stewards from the two finalists over to help police the venue, and to have some sort of chip system built into the ticket to speed up the waiting to get into the ground

What are your thoughts on this ?

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri May 25, 2007 8:38 pm

destro wrote:Heard this from a guy on the radio tonight, his suggestion at what can be done in the future to prevent this sort of thing happening

UEFA should look at building a Champions league final stadium in one of the lesser known countries.

They should also station police at all major airports flying out to that country and make fans travelling to the game show their final ticket aswell as their plane ticket, no ticket no flight.

And how about sending stewards from the two finalists over to help police the venue, and to have some sort of chip system built into the ticket to speed up the waiting to get into the ground

What are your thoughts on this ?

clearly you have never been to the game in your life.

There are ALWAYS spare tickets for EVERY game.

by **LFC2007** » Fri May 25, 2007 8:44 pm

I don't think it is feasible both financially or practically to build a stadium solely for the champions league final. The lgoistics and rights to the stadium etc. would problem be too much hassle.

UEFA are tight enough as it is.

The solutions are clear to me:

1) Reduce the number of corporate tickets given out by both UEFA and the clubs.

2) Better organisation of the event, well planned etc....

3) Tickets put through machine to check validity.

4) Reduce the UEFA ballot

This coupled with just generally better planning and organisatuion would solve some of th eprblems.

With regard to some of your points aboutsending stewards over, that already happens I think.

And about not allowing fans without tickets to travel, fans will want to be there for the event anyway which is understandable as the atmosphere in the host city alone is something they can look forward to.

It would be impossible anway as how do you determine who is a football fan flying out there and who is a tourist, fans would simply masquerade as holidaymakers to be there.

by **destro** » Fri May 25, 2007 9:12 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
destro wrote:Heard this from a guy on the radio tonight, his suggestion at what can be done in the future to prevent this sort of thing happening

UEFA should look at building a Champions league final stadium in one of the lesser known countries.

They should also station police at all major airports flying out to that country and make fans travelling to the game show their final ticket aswell as their plane ticket, no ticket no flight.

And how about sending stewards from the two finalists over to help police the venue, and to have some sort of chip system built into the ticket to speed up the waiting to get into the ground

What are your thoughts on this ?

clearly you have never been to the game in your life.

There are ALWAYS spare tickets for EVERY game.

Read the first line of the post Leon then comment, saves any confusion !

by **bigmick** » Fri May 25, 2007 10:23 pm

Clearly from anecdotal evidence (as I obviously wasn't there) the stadium wasn't a wise choice. Also, by all accounts the stewarding and policing was rubbish as well to go along with the fact that the ticket allocation was patently ridiculous.

That said, clearly some supporters let themselves and the club down with their behaviour. We can't continually condone bad behaviour, but equally fans can't seriously be expected to police themselves (it would take a big or a brave man to confront four lads who've bunked into some seats next door and then tell the rightful owner to get fecked when he arrives). Yes we can tut-tut, and yes we can roundly condemn, but ultimately the responsibility to behave properly lies with the individual, and the ultimate responsibility to ensure that good behaviour lies with the authorities. Collectively I don't think Liverpool supporters should be hanging their heads in shame. While there probably was some regretable behaviour, it is possible to underatand some of it even if we don't necessarily agree with it.

It's hard to imagine how a fan, who was say taking his little lad accross Europe to see the final would feel when he was refused entry at the gate with a legitimate ticket. Would I storm the gates in such a situation? Fecking right I would, OOTer scouser or whatever you are, when your little 'un is bawling his eyes out you're going to try and remedy the situation somewhat.

Equally, if you've travelled accross Europe with a few of your mates who have tickets, hoping to pick up a ticket somewhere along the way and the opportunity comes to sneak in, would you take it? Course you would. I defy anybody to say hand on heart that they wouldn't. You wouldn't tell the rightful owners of the tickets to get fecked but you would sneak in no question, well I would anyway.

No the answer is not to build a new stadium, its to build a coherent plan for stopping those without tickets getting within a half mile of the ground. It's about building a facility via a big screen with scaffold terracing and a beer tent on the outskirts of a town for those fans from both clubs who havent got tickets. It's about a festival is a final, and the authorities who happily took the fans money but then on the night hadn't taken necessary measures to ensure those fans could take their seats to see the game should be hanging their heads in shame, not ordinary Liverpool supporters.

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