Liverpool FC Forum

RUSHIE#9 wrote:I read a very good article about this last week in the footy echo (unfortunately not available on their website). In it the staff of Melwood and Kirkby are labelled as competing factions on the subject of how the academy should be run and the team at Melwood have been vying for more control of the academy setup for years. I remember that alot of aggro developed between Heighway and Houllier a few years back and I believe that was root of this current 'battle' for control. The time may have come were Steve Heighway has gotten fed up of the hassle coming from Melwood. He may feel that after all his years of service he deserves more respect, only Steve Heighway knows his reasons for leaving.

I myself believe that it's only right that the Manager has input into how the young players are brought through. When the time comes he will have the final say as to whether they are good enough for the first team or not and when they are being moulded for the professional game it makes sense that they are moulded into the ways of the first team. This may already happen I don't really know but if the academy staff are resisting this then I think that is wrong.

Incidentally the article goes on to say that Gillett and Hicks may look to Rafa for guidance on who should take over and apart from bringing somebody like maybe John Barnes or Gary McAllister in they may possibly go for Alex Miller. Apparently Rafa has been really impressed by Miller's coaching background and had Houllier taken notice of Miller's eye for emerging talent then we'd have had some real talent in the squad. The article mentions that Miller is rumoured to have scouting files from five years ago urging Houllier to sign players like Petr Cech and Robben.

It may all be bollox but coming from a local journo it does provide some interesting information on what is supposedly going on regarding the future stars of the team.

If you can get your hands on last weeks Football Echo it was in Chris Bascombe's BLOOD RED column.

Personally I think Benitez taking over the academy will be a huge mistake. He's been poor enough judging fully developed players level's of ability, let alone young kids. The problem is, to many kids simply slip into no mans land.

I've been playing fairly regularly with a premiership player this season who's played for England at a senior level (no not Dean Ashton ), I won't give more away than that as I don't want to get the player into any trouble with his club, and I have to say the gap isn't as big as some would imagine.

Obviously he's the best player on the pitch by a mile, but it makes you realise the gap in some of these players isn't as big as people think as no matter how good this lad is, he's not always on the winning side. The main things that stand out about him are obviously his unbelievable fitness, his concentration and his ability to do what you think he should be doing. IE when you see him play a pass, you think, ok, now you should be doing this... and he does it... where as the difference when I sometimes play a pass I'll stand there and think... ok now I should be doing this... But I can't be arsed because I've just ran 50 yards.

You can put a good sunday league player against this lad and he'll do things better in some places though and he'll also get frustrated with the odd decision the premiership player makes.
Obviously the ability to step up a level or two counts for alot, but thats down to general ability.

The point is though, there are to many managers out there who look for this and look for that and look for would he fit my system? When the fact of the matter is you can mould a young footballer into the system and the key is to find a footballer. To many are looking for "pace", "power", "ability in such an area". Where as if you put a natural footballer into a side from a young age they "mould themselves" into a style of player using their attributes and they gain know how and the ability to maximise what they are good at.

The first three things you should look for in any footballer are ability to pass a ball, first touch and early movements (IE anticipation) or off the ball movements. Also how much time a player has on the ball. They create that time for themselves with either a touch or there movement. If you look at all good players, they all have these attributes in abundance, weather they are a centre half, striker, midfielder. Obviously certain players will be better than others at these and thats then were other attributes come in, but even the likes of Campbell and Hyypia who aren't considered technically excellent are still very good at passing and first touch, no matter how underated they are by the majority.

Robbie Fowler coming through todays academy wouldn't stand a chance for any club. Because of his lack of height, lack of pace, lack of strength. No-one would look at him or consider him because of these things unless he scored a silly amount of goals.

Theres a lad I played with called Neil Fitzhenry. Played for Whiston (same team as Barton, Nugent and Gerrard) and scored 157 goals in a season. The season before he score 129. Obviously a striker. He went to Wigan... and they played him as a centre half because he was aggressive and good in the air... he now stacks shelves in asda...

A lad who scored 157 goals in a season when he was a kid for probably the best youth side in the country. At 17 the lad was a monster aswell. He was unbelievabley strong (a hell of alot stronger than the premiership player I play with and a hell of a lot quicker with a far better shot. He could also head a ball with power and accuracy). He beat me in the St Helens schools 100m by about a couple of yards, I finished second with a time of 12.02.

Stu.Murph wrote:Too many are looking for "pace", "power", "ability in such an area". Where as if you put a natural footballer into a side from a young age they "mould themselves" into a style of player using their attributes and they gain know how and the ability to maximise what they are good at.

The first three things you should look for in any footballer are ability to pass a ball, first touch and early movements (IE anticipation) or off the ball movements. Also how much time a player has on the ball. They create that time for themselves with either a touch or there movement. If you look at all good players, they all have these attributes in abundance, weather they are a centre half, striker, midfielder. Obviously certain players will be better than others at these and thats then were other attributes come in, but even the likes of Campbell and Hyypia who aren't considered technically excellent are still very good at passing and first touch, no matter how underated they are by the majority.

Robbie Fowler coming through todays academy wouldn't stand a chance for any club. Because of his lack of height, lack of pace, lack of strength. No-one would look at him or consider him because of these things unless he scored a silly amount of goals.

stmichael wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:Too many are looking for "pace", "power", "ability in such an area". Where as if you put a natural footballer into a side from a young age they "mould themselves" into a style of player using their attributes and they gain know how and the ability to maximise what they are good at.

The first three things you should look for in any footballer are ability to pass a ball, first touch and early movements (IE anticipation) or off the ball movements. Also how much time a player has on the ball. They create that time for themselves with either a touch or there movement. If you look at all good players, they all have these attributes in abundance, weather they are a centre half, striker, midfielder. Obviously certain players will be better than others at these and thats then were other attributes come in, but even the likes of Campbell and Hyypia who aren't considered technically excellent are still very good at passing and first touch, no matter how underated they are by the majority.

Robbie Fowler coming through todays academy wouldn't stand a chance for any club. Because of his lack of height, lack of pace, lack of strength. No-one would look at him or consider him because of these things unless he scored a silly amount of goals.

Good points Stu.

I have a lot of sympathy towards the 'players', the Fowlers, the Terry Macs in the discussion about 'athletes versus players' debate. I do think you do have to be pretty physical now to break through at 18, either strong or quick or preferably both. Rooney is an example, Micah Richards another.

I think there's a fundamental problem in the whole English game in terms of the transition period between youth, reserve (shambles) and first team football. I think someone needs to look at how best to progress lads between say 18 and 21. How do you ensure that a cultured player is given time and space to progress at the expense of the yarddogs?

Send him on loan to Spain ?

Anyway, has Heighway succeeded? I'd say so yes, if only for the FA Youth Cup wins. Ok clearly there has been no top class lad coming through from our immediate catchment area in the last half a dozen years other than Rooney. Nobody else has come through in the Premiership in that time from Merseyside that I can think of (please don't say Tony Hibbert). .

I do honestly feel that Liverpool's academy tends to focus on producing footballers ahead of athletes. In the Final against City last season our on-the-whole much smaller footballers' football grabbed us a 3-0 lead at Anfield before City's bigger more powerful athletes overpowered our lads at their place to pull 2 back and they could easily have saved it.

Half a season later and City's athletes like Richards (that's not entirely justified, he does have very good technique for a big strong lad) and Onuoha and no doubt Sturridge at some point are breaking through into the first team picture at City.

It's hard to imagine the dimunitive but intelligent Ryan Flynn, a sort of junior Vladi Smicer, making a similar impact anytime soon.

So, objectively, maybe City have got it right and we have got it wrong, but I'm a firm believer in The Liverpool Way and I'd always want to see us try to bring through footballers, at the right end of the pitch at least, if at all possible.

Its not you have to be physical though. Thats the point. Thats what managers tend to wrongly look for and thats why standard of the national team and the standard of local players is slipping by the season.

Micah Richards is a prime example for me of a player who's been manufactured, I really don't believe him to be a great player, granted I haven't seen alot of him, but I'd say he's a centre half if anything. He's one I'd need to watch more closely.

I also completely disagree with what you say about yard dogs. Its part of football, you're going to get a Robbie Savage and Sissoko, good players will just simply out play these types of players. Its as simple as that. Can you imagine either of them coming up against Joe Cole or someone in central midfield? They wouldn't get near him. The other problem with academies is doing what they done with Fitzy, playing players out of position... Whats the point? I'm sorry right, education my . Owen only ever played as a striker as did Robbie. Obviously it helps if they understand the movements of a winger, but they won't understand properly by playing there, they'll only understand by playing and forging and understanding with a player. Different players bring different things and movements and quality adapts to quality.

On your point of local lads, theres hundreds who never get a look in. To name a few that we've missed out on, Barton, Nugent, McEveley, Nolan.

On the point of Sturridge. Its not about power or pace with him. A blind man can see he's a player. If he doesn't make it at the top level theres something seriously wrong with this country. He is a hell of a lot better than all the other no hopers at City and I also have that opinion backed up by a player there who knows what he's talking about.

Ace Ventura wrote:I have said for years that i think all clubs release youth team players far too early.
My mate same age as me was with Tranmere as a kid, imo (possibly biased) he was the best kid about and played for Merseyside same team as Gerrard and Jason Koumas and was in the same Tranmere team as Jason, and another few lads, well only Jason was taken on from Tranmere after the YTS, which was obviously the right choice, the others ended up at welsh clubs one of them Tommy Holmes (year below me in our school) played for TNS against us last year.
Point is they were on peanuts, and just discarded when Tranmere were bringing in ageing players on bumper contracts and hardly playing them like Liam O'Brien. I know this is an LFC forum but we are just as guilty Davey Thompson was f'cked off on the cheap cos we wanted to persevere with Leonhardson who cost 4 million but was sh!te.

Just a couple of examples that baffle me, there will be many more, i cant see why these young lads arent given longer as we are paying them next to nothing anyway.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Ace Ventura wrote:I have said for years that i think all clubs release youth team players far too early.
My mate same age as me was with Tranmere as a kid, imo (possibly biased) he was the best kid about and played for Merseyside same team as Gerrard and Jason Koumas and was in the same Tranmere team as Jason, and another few lads, well only Jason was taken on from Tranmere after the YTS, which was obviously the right choice, the others ended up at welsh clubs one of them Tommy Holmes (year below me in our school) played for TNS against us last year.
Point is they were on peanuts, and just discarded when Tranmere were bringing in ageing players on bumper contracts and hardly playing them like Liam O'Brien. I know this is an LFC forum but we are just as guilty Davey Thompson was f'cked off on the cheap cos we wanted to persevere with Leonhardson who cost 4 million but was sh!te.

Just a couple of examples that baffle me, there will be many more, i cant see why these young lads arent given longer as we are paying them next to nothing anyway.

Thompson in fairness was sold for Barmby, not Leonhardson. Thompson also said he wanted to go as he felt he wouldn't have had the chance. Which was a mistake on his part as Houllier wasn't about to beg him to stay.

Stephen Wright was the one for me. He could have been and should have been a quality player and our current right back. Instead we sold him and brought in Xavier... Why?

Stu.Murph wrote:I also completely disagree with what you say about yard dogs. Its part of football, you're going to get a Robbie Savage and Sissoko, good players will just simply out play these types of players. Its as simple as that. Can you imagine either of them coming up against Joe Cole or someone in central midfield? They wouldn't get near him.

I seem to remember Sissoko kept a certain goofy trisha looalike very very quiet during a recent game against barcalona. Cant get much better than that for a creative and brilliant player.

However im not saying robbie savage could do the same.