Liverpool FC Forum

by **neilE** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:54 pm

What are the odds on finding a champions league/international standard player
from scratch? Well I can't work it out but there can't be many. The academy could never really be guaranteed to turn 2/3 decent players into top class players every year.There has to be a big chunk of luck involved, even if you have the best setup imaginable. Eventually - once every 5 years or so? - a top class player will come through, and that'd justification enough for me, especially if we also produce 1 or 2 basic championship/premier league standard players that we can sell on

by **7_Kewell** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:58 pm

man utd are in a similar position....one year they produced Beckham, Neville's, Scholes, Butt and Giggs....the next noone. Just how it goes i'm afriad....you can't make stars from players who don't have the ability.

by **JC_81** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:07 pm

Started a thread on this myself a while back i think, and to be honest I don't think the academy is in a bad state as people make out. The players that some have written off are not actually bad players, and as others have said, give the academy a chance, its not been up and running that long.

To say Potter etc will not make the grade is bollox. Unless you are watching him week in week out you can't really comment and even if he has looked poor in his first team outings to date, it means very little. I remember Gerrard being blooded into the team at first around the same time as owen. He looked well out of his depth, whereas Owen was ready, but the fact is that players' games develop at different rates when they're young, its a learning curve. Beckham wasn't getting a game for the scum regularly until he was 20, whereas Rooney was ready sooner, it means little in the grand scheme of things.

I personally feel that this season will see Warnock establish himself as first choice left back. Theres your first academy success IMO. For the others its too early to say, but an Owen or a Rooney come along once in a blue moon, most youngsters need a couple of seasons of getting the odd first team game before you can tell if they've got what it takes.

The academy WILL produce, and in addition Rafa is expanding our worldwide scouting network as well as the local ones. Rafa wants scouts in south america and africa, we have never had that before. The future looks good imo and we are in the best hands.

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:19 pm

Started a thread on this myself a while back i think, and to be honest I don't think the academy is in a bad state as people make out. The players that some have written off are not actually bad players, and as others have said, give the academy a chance, its not been up and running that long.

To say Potter etc will not make the grade is bollox. Unless you are watching him week in week out you can't really comment and even if he has looked poor in his first team outings to date, it means very little. I remember Gerrard being blooded into the team at first around the same time as owen. He looked well out of his depth, whereas Owen was ready, but the fact is that players' games develop at different rates when they're young, its a learning curve. Beckham wasn't getting a game for the scum regularly until he was 20, whereas Rooney was ready sooner, it means little in the grand scheme of things.

I personally feel that this season will see Warnock establish himself as first choice left back. Theres your first academy success IMO. For the others its too early to say, but an Owen or a Rooney come along once in a blue moon, most youngsters need a couple of seasons of getting the odd first team game before you can tell if they've got what it takes.

The academy WILL produce, and in addition Rafa is expanding our worldwide scouting network as well as the local ones. Rafa wants scouts in south america and africa, we have never had that before. The future looks good imo and we are in the best hands.

To say that Potter, Whitebread, Raven etc won't produce is bollox is it?

Well ok, i'll say it again and i'll bet you in 3/4 years time Whitebread and Potter will not be Liverpool players and will not be CLASS footballers. You can see from the first time a lad plays weather he's got the ability or not. To say Gerrard was out of his depth is bloody daft, i went to his debeut at Tottenham and he bossed the midfield and was launching 50 yard passes everywhere along with crunching tackles. The lad looked class from the second he came through, as did Carragher, Owen, Fowler, Thompson, Warnock... when these players play, you can instantly see the potential they have. Le Tallec and Pongolle were good players as kids but they'll never be superstars, good players maybe, but they were MILES behind the Owens, Fowlers, Rooney's of the world.

Yes you get late developers like Zidane and Beckham, but in general these are VERY RARE and usually have the ability frmo day one anyways.

Players like Whitebread and Potter just don't have it. Potter... one day, MIGHT make a bog standard premiership player, Whitebread MIGHT one day make a division 1 or 2 player. Nothing more. I'll put money on that.

by **JC_81** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:34 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
Started a thread on this myself a while back i think, and to be honest I don't think the academy is in a bad state as people make out. The players that some have written off are not actually bad players, and as others have said, give the academy a chance, its not been up and running that long.

To say Potter etc will not make the grade is bollox. Unless you are watching him week in week out you can't really comment and even if he has looked poor in his first team outings to date, it means very little. I remember Gerrard being blooded into the team at first around the same time as owen. He looked well out of his depth, whereas Owen was ready, but the fact is that players' games develop at different rates when they're young, its a learning curve. Beckham wasn't getting a game for the scum regularly until he was 20, whereas Rooney was ready sooner, it means little in the grand scheme of things.

I personally feel that this season will see Warnock establish himself as first choice left back. Theres your first academy success IMO. For the others its too early to say, but an Owen or a Rooney come along once in a blue moon, most youngsters need a couple of seasons of getting the odd first team game before you can tell if they've got what it takes.

The academy WILL produce, and in addition Rafa is expanding our worldwide scouting network as well as the local ones. Rafa wants scouts in south america and africa, we have never had that before. The future looks good imo and we are in the best hands.

To say that Potter, Whitebread, Raven etc won't produce is bollox is it?

Well ok, i'll say it again and i'll bet you in 3/4 years time Whitebread and Potter will not be Liverpool players and will not be CLASS footballers. You can see from the first time a lad plays weather he's got the ability or not. To say Gerrard was out of his depth is bloody daft, i went to his debeut at Tottenham and he bossed the midfield and was launching 50 yard passes everywhere along with crunching tackles. The lad looked class from the second he came through, as did Carragher, Owen, Fowler, Thompson, Warnock... when these players play, you can instantly see the potential they have. Le Tallec and Pongolle were good players as kids but they'll never be superstars, good players maybe, but they were MILES behind the Owens, Fowlers, Rooney's of the world.

Yes you get late developers like Zidane and Beckham, but in general these are VERY RARE and usually have the ability frmo day one anyways.

Players like Whitebread and Potter just don't have it. Potter... one day, MIGHT make a bog standard premiership player, Whitebread MIGHT one day make a division 1 or 2 player. Nothing more. I'll put money on that.

Stu, you can't tell from one game whether a player has got it or not mate, and Gerrard's debut (as far as i can remember) was actually in a european game and he was a passenger the whole game. Thats no fault of his, he just wasn't ready.

I'll say this again, you can't write young players off unless you watch them on a regular basis. You may be right about potter and whitbread not making it, and by the law of averages of the amount of players that actually make it, theres a very good chance you will be right, but thats not the point. If there was NO chance in them making it, then why would LFC be keeping them? What would be the point? Why have a reserve and youth team just for the sake of it if none of the players are any good?

To say that warnock looked class from the minute he came through isn't true either mate. He didn't look like he had it at first and LFC let him go to coventry for a season's loan with a view to him staying there when the loan was up. Warnock, and Coventry were shocked when LFC brought him back and offered him a new contract. He needed the games at coventry to develop as a player, as Beckham did at Preston.

I'll agree with you on le tallec, I've seen enough of him now to be convinced he's not good enough. Pongolle, again, I wouldn't write off yet. You're probably right that he won't be a superstar but the point is that some players need time and you can't write them off so easily.

I'm not taking that bet on whitbread by the way

by **stmichael** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:52 pm

The truth of the matter is this.

With regards to developing new Academies, etc... I agree it's not something that can happen overnight... sometimes you get a good bunch of youngsters in sometimes you don't...

Our youth development excelled in the 90's with quite a few top notch young lads coming through (McManaman, Fowler, Owen etc) but after the feast comes the famine.

There are question marks over how the academy was run.. Houllier expressed his disappointment over the lack of quality youngsters being produced and Benitez has apparently instigated an overhaul... time will tell whether it'll be successful.

Also you might argue that top teams are casting their nets wider these days with youngsters from the continent being picked up more frequently than ever before.

You could argue that very few of the top teams are producing large amounts of home grown talent at the moment.. certainly Chelsea have only really brought through Terry, Arsenal tend to bring through young foreigners more so than locals these days with Cole being the only local and Man Ure's system seems to have stalled with their youngsters being distinctly limited these days.

Following that you could argue that the actual talent level of the youngsters hasn't necessarily dropped but their opportunities to gain first team experience is limited and therefore their progress in some way barred, which adds weight to the reason why sometimes the best youngsters don't come through the top teams academies... they get more forst team opportunities to progress.

A good recent example would be David Thompson who never really looked like making it at Liverpool, but after going to a smaller club, got the first team experience required and started to progeress.

Consider the example of Stephen Warnock... did remarkably well at Coventry but hasn't developed much more at Liverpool because he doesn't get a regular first team game... but the paradox is... do you give a youngster like Warnock the chance to progress over time or sign someone with more experience. Stephen wright was sold because he wouldn't get much experience... while Jamie Carragher was persisted with and has found his feet after a few years where his career could have gone either way.

Warnock faces a question soon about his future at Liverpool.. as does youngster Raven, Whitbread, Madjani and more than likely Mellor, Pongolle and Le Tallec.

At the end of the day... we're looking for youngster to come through of international class and at any one time there are probably 30 odd players in England of international class... given the amount of Academies around is it any wonder that they are unlikely to produce large volumes of quality youngsters at any one time.. it's a bit of a lottery...

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:25 pm

great players are born and not made, if you could teach that x factor the league would be full of gerrards and rooneys.
these acadamies will take an average player and turn him into a decent one but they`ll never take a decent player and make him a great one. they produce footballing robots and the players with real true genius like maradona and pele taught themselves by playing in the streets and developing their natural intuition and feel for the game.
it`s down to luck if you produce great players.

by **El Nino_#9** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:30 pm

give it time.
the last quality player to come out of the arsenal academy would of been ashley cole!
for man utd it would of been the beckhams,nevilles,etc.
and for chelsea......god knows! probally john terry!
quite a while ago!

by **The_Rock** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:13 pm

another reason why our academy don't seem to produce quality players is because of the in-flux of foreigners to the english game....

think about it.....

the academy is not as bad as what some make it out to be.

by **76-1115222408** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:37 pm

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:great players are born and not made, if you could teach that x factor the league would be full of gerrards and rooneys.
these acadamies will take an average player and turn him into a decent one but they`ll never take a decent player and make him a great one. they produce footballing robots and the players with real true genius like maradona and pele taught themselves by playing in the streets and developing their natural intuition and feel for the game.
it`s down to luck if you produce great players.

Excellent point mate. I totally agree!!!

However it also comes down to luck and circumstances as well!
I grew up with MANY players that could easily have made the grade, but were never picked up by scouts or if they were, often fell into the wrong crowd of fellas and football became second best to either CRIME or DRUGS.

For example, I grew up with (and still know) and played in the same football team as Jody Morris. Now believe me when i say that he was an excellent player (completely diferent from how he plays now, he had so much SKILL it was unbelieveable) but he was by no means the best player in the team. There were at least 3 or 4 players better than he (arguably I was one of these!! I was just as good as he was and definetly more versatile in playing position but hey thats life innit!! Not being big headed btw!!).
But the thing was his father had a link into Chelsea and so he was picked up. All the rest of the lads in the team are either in Prison at the moment, just come out or addicted to drugs.

As i say it comes down to luck, and Jody was the lucky one from OUR area. He wasnt the best, BUT was the luckiest.
Look how much trouble over the years Jody has found himself in, this comes from the environment that he grew up in our area, as they say 'you can take the boy out of his area, but you cant take the area out of the boy' and this is the main reason he used to get into trouble, as we ALL used to get into trouble with the police etc; As i say he was lucky enough to escape the street and get a chance at a club, with proper facilities and coaching staff etc;
Otherwise Jody Morris could so easily ended up another drug dealer or drug addict on the West Kensington Estate 'Frontlines' as they are known down here!!!

However, the grass isnt always greener on the other side as i will go onto explain now.

As i stated above Jody had so much skill, it was just wrong really!!
But as soon as he hit the Chelsea youth set-up THEY changed the way he played. THEY stopped all his flair coming out and made him into more a tackling midfielder (which was never his strength!). Thus (for me) they STIFLED his NATURAL ability, which was being skillful, going past players and being creative.
This was NEVER seen from him when in Chelsea colours and even less evident in his Leeds days (as he basically became a hatchet man FFS!!).

Another example of academies or youth set-ups STIFLING ability (but not to the same extent) is Joe Cole.
My brother played against Joe Cole on numerous occasions when playing District football (my bro played for 'West London', whilst Cole {and Jay Bothroyd} were playing for 'Highbury and Islington'.
Now I only witnessed Cole play once, but all i can say he was AMAZING. But when he emerged at West Ham he was different, not as much skill being used (obviously it is a higher level of football, no doubt) but he was similar to a maradona type player and i only think we are starting to see this from him now due to JOSE MOURINHO!!!

Why??

My view is that the academies and youth set-ups in this country tend to make players able to play the 'english' game as opposed to developing their 'natural' abilities and i think that is where the crux of the problem lies to be honest.
And i think that as Jose Mourinho (being Portugese) has a different mentality this is the reason we are beginning to see Cole's REAL ability starting to come out. He nurtured the talent that must have been clearly evident in training, but added other skills so he is able to use these skills in the Premiership and CL.

So I am hopeful that as we have Rafa (and therefore a european mentality at the helm) that this may go on to have a beneficial effect on the way our academy is run.

For me it is all about the mentality of the academies changing to develop the talent as it comes to them, and not trying to impose a style of play onto them.

PS- Other players i know/grew up with that had the same problems - Julian Gray (C.Palace), DJ (dudley junior) and Dharti Brown of Yeading fame!!
There are tens of others that didnt get that far, as those above!!

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