Liverpool FC Forum

by **Emerald Red** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:11 pm

Exactly right, stmichael.

I watched the United game against Bolton yesterday and was left feeling a bit green for how United scored their second goal. I was thinking, "are Bolton really that poor to let United ransack them like that?".

The Answer was yes and no. Rooney's second was something that I hadn't seen all season in an attacking sense from us. They were defending, and as soon as Ronaldo got a sniff of the ball on the edge of his own area, he was away down the pitch along with two other players breaking just as fast with him. Bolton couldn't cope, and Rooney was there to chip the ball over the keeper.

It was this type of goal that I've not seen from us in a while (with the acception to Risse's in the Sheild game). We lack the direct pace and attacking instinct to score such a goal. Arsenal also score similar kind of goals just when it looks like they are about to concede, they break directly down the pitch and only pass wide once they get a clear opening.

It's the opposite for us. We seem to spray the ball wide to the wings, where it gets carried then held up for a useless cross into the box. It's partly down to the fact that Either Crouch and Kuyt are just too slow and not direct enough with their runs. We've had this problem for feckin too long. When Cisse was here, we were thinking he'd be a central striker, and where did he play? Yes. Out the bloody sides! Bellamy is played in a similar way also.

I watched the Barca V Real game the other week, and was in awe of Van Nistelrooy. Ex Manc as he may be, he's downright f*ckin leathal and is always in the right area, which is in the area! Rafa better sort this out!

by **76-1174245250** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:37 pm

In answer to the first question. An absoloute mile away.

We need two first choice strikers. A right back. A left winger and a centre half before we can even think about winning the league.

Last season we had a far better side than this season. We had a fit Harry Kewell. Robbie Fowler upfront and Sami Hyypia at the back. This season we've failed to replace Kewell. We've missed Fowler every game he hasn't played and we've clearly failed to replace Sami Hyypia with a player of equal or better quality and no amount of make up can disguise this fact.

Last seasons team needed maybe one or two additions. This seasons needs at least 5 or 6. Simple as that.

by **lakes10** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:26 pm

on Sky today they said that Rafa has come and said that it might be 2 or 3 years before we clopse the cap.....sorry but he got the job as we could not waite that long and that is why GH lost his job after saying the same thing.

yes i feel that we are at least 3 years away if we keep geeting players from other teams that are unfit or are well past the best.
we need young english players, if its going to take 3 years then put the money into the youth team and bring up our own players.

by **76-1174245250** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:36 pm

lakes10 wrote:on Sky today they said that Rafa has come and said that it might be 2 or 3 years before we clopse the cap.....sorry but he got the job as we could not waite that long and that is why GH lost his job after saying the same thing.

yes i feel that we are at least 3 years away if we keep geeting players from other teams that are unfit or are well past the best.
we need young english players, if its going to take 3 years then put the money into the youth team and bring up our own players.

If you're reffering to Fowler just get lost. You're the typical idiot who only comes out and speaks when we lose. You're known for it on here.

by **weringo** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:15 pm

Week after week people come out and critisise players such as Riise and Reina, they are very much not the problem we have. Our back four is excellent and has been for a number of years, and we also have good enough backup in those positions for now.

The real problem we have is clear and was highlighted today, Pennant, Gonzales, Aurelio, Kuyt, Crouch, Bellamy and Fowler are all not good enough to have as first team players if you have ambitions of winning the league. We definately need a top class left winger and right winger, as well as 2 top class strikers. Kewell would be good enough but I seriously doubt he is ever going to be able to stay fit for a full season.

If you look at title winning sides of the last few years they all have very talented players in those positions.
Arsenal: Pires, Ljunberg, Henry, Bergkamp
United: Van Nistlerooy, Beckham, Giggs. As well as Rooney and Ronaldo assuming the win the league this year.
Chelsea: Robben, Joe Cole, Duff, Drogba.

The players we currently have on the wing and forward positions come no where near the quality of the ones mentioned above.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:35 am

Ladeulcateg wrote:We need two first choice strikers. A right back. A left winger and a centre half before we can even think about winning the league.

Last season we had a far better side than this season. We had a fit Harry Kewell. Robbie Fowler upfront and Sami Hyypia at the back. This season we've failed to replace Kewell. We've missed Fowler every game he hasn't played and we've clearly failed to replace Sami Hyypia with a player of equal or better quality and no amount of make up can disguise this fact.

Last seasons team needed maybe one or two additions. This seasons needs at least 5 or 6. Simple as that.

I disagree.

We certainly do not need a right back as we've one of the best around already in Steve Finnan. I can't see how you reckon we've a worse side than last season. Hyypia is a rock, yes, but he lacks pace and was showing his age in the latter days of last year. I'd rather Aggar fill his shoes now and gain experience than having a player that's rapidly becoming dead wood.

Same as with Fowler. For those saying to keep him in the team is just folly as he is past his best. No one can argue with this. His finishing is there, yes, but he lacks vital things required for the top flight these days and that is power and pace to backed up with a killer stroke. To keep him in the side is just clinging to ghosts. Let it go, people.

Indeed we do need a right-winger and even a right-winger. Pennant isn't making the grade, but he had a hard task to begin with. We don't really need a center-half either. In fact, in any defensive area of the team, it's as good as it gets. We DON'T need more of that. A pacey, skilled left and right wide player, or maybe one central and two quality strikers and we're sorted.

by **76-1174245250** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:21 am

One of the best around in Finnan? I'm sorry mate but take your rose tinted specs off. Finnan is very very very solid and very dependable. He makes hardly any mistakes aswell and his consistency is excellent.

But, and its a big but... he offers NOTHING going forward. Attend a few games and try watching the lad. The amount of times today (and over the past season and a half) I've found myself standing there screaming for him to overlap or even be ahead of the play to offer the option for the pass has worn me down. He always takes a touch instead of playing first time passes aswell. He's a good player, but for you to sit there and suggest he's in the class of Neville, Alves, Zambrotta or Eboue is laughable. Theres a lad who plays for Wigan for :censored:

sake who's a far better player aswell, Ryan Taylor. Used to play for Tranmere. Top quality full back but not fasionable and not at a "big club".

You then go onto Hyypia's famous lack of pace arguement... well am sorry but pace is nothing if you don't have class. Hyypia has class in abundance. He reads it, heads it, intercepts, passes, tackles and marshalls a defence. I'm sick of the experience arguement. Its again :censored:

by idiots who don't have a clue what they are talking about. Owen wasn't experienced at 17 when he scored 23 goals in his first season. Fowler wasn't at 18 when he scored 18 goals then 30 odd the next season... Rooney wasn't when he broke into the England team and took the euro's in 2004 by storm.

Agger is lazy, sloppy and not arially dominant. He's also not the most mobile. He's a good player, who's decent at everything a defender needs and he's better on the ball than most with his dribbling which can create space but he's not by any stretch of the imagination top class. Never has been and never will be.

You then start with the common Fowler arguement about how you need pace and power to play in the premier league blah blah. I'm starting to get wound up, I shouldn't because I'm bored of the :censored:

... In football the three most important things are passing and movement. Followed by touch. If a player has those three things they are more than useful. Fowler has a very good level in all of these.

He can also finish. The problem is Benitez doesn't know how to use him. The players are there in this country, infact, they're everywhere if I'm honest. Barton, Taylor, Bullard, Ashton, the problem being people don't know how to get the best out of these players so therefore don't take a chance on them and they end up never fullfilling there potential.

Fowler can spot a pass, control a ball, pass a ball, link up, play a one two, keep the play moving on the deck, head a ball, read the flight of the ball quicker than a defender and move into space far better than all of our strikers. He is only as quick as Crouch, he's not as strong as Crouch, Bellamy or Kuyt but the fact is he's never been great physically. He once had upper average pace. Now he's got lower average. So what? He was on the pitch for 9 minutes today an looked more likely to score than Bellamy and Kuyt did for the whole time they were on the pitch. Infact, If Fowler had played 5 games more this season I reckon he'd of outscored Bellamy and Kuyt.

What i do find funny is peoples use of cliche's and common terms used by "experts".

What I also find funny is that because of footy manager the experts think that when you hit 30 all your attirubtes drop and you become useless. When the fact is Robbie now is probably just as good as the Robbie of 2003/2004. The only difference is he's probably physically not able to play 90 mins every game due to his fitness.

Fowler will never make a ball stick consistently, he'll never stretch a defence either, but i tell you what, give him a chance and more often than not its in the back of the net.

The last paragraph. A right winger isn't essential at the moment. The main area's in order to be a great side. Two strikers, a left winger, a centre half, a right back. The right back we can get away without. JUST!

by **babu** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:25 am

Hi Stu,
Couldn't you come on here and pretend to be someone else? I enjoy reading most of your posts that don't inolve AB, i like your football debate (harsh as it is), but at least pretend to be a nicer bloke so you don't get banned again.

thanks

by **kobashi** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:43 am

Emerald Red wrote:
Ladeulcateg wrote:We need two first choice strikers. A right back. A left winger and a centre half before we can even think about winning the league.

Last season we had a far better side than this season. We had a fit Harry Kewell. Robbie Fowler upfront and Sami Hyypia at the back. This season we've failed to replace Kewell. We've missed Fowler every game he hasn't played and we've clearly failed to replace Sami Hyypia with a player of equal or better quality and no amount of make up can disguise this fact.

Last seasons team needed maybe one or two additions. This seasons needs at least 5 or 6. Simple as that.

I disagree.

We certainly do not need a right back as we've one of the best around already in Steve Finnan. I can't see how you reckon we've a worse side than last season. Hyypia is a rock, yes, but he lacks pace and was showing his age in the latter days of last year. I'd rather Aggar fill his shoes now and gain experience than having a player that's rapidly becoming dead wood.

Same as with Fowler. For those saying to keep him in the team is just folly as he is past his best. No one can argue with this. His finishing is there, yes, but he lacks vital things required for the top flight these days and that is power and pace to backed up with a killer stroke. To keep him in the side is just clinging to ghosts. Let it go, people.

Indeed we do need a right-winger and even a right-winger. Pennant isn't making the grade, but he had a hard task to begin with. We don't really need a center-half either. In fact, in any defensive area of the team, it's as good as it gets. We DON'T need more of that. A pacey, skilled left and right wide player, or maybe one central and two quality strikers and we're sorted.

Finnan is solid and thats it. These days u need more than that. Full backs have to be like wingers. No good having full backs who are useless once they cross the half way line. You look at Cole, Eboue, Evra, Neville, Cliche, they all are very comfortable in the final 3rd and constant threat down the flanks. Finnan offers nothing going forward and we need better than him if we want to progress. Cicinho would be fine with me.

by **Sabre** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:51 am

But, and its a big but... he offers NOTHING going forward. Attend a few games and try watching the lad. The amount of times today (and over the past season and a half) I've found myself standing there screaming for him to overlap or even be ahead of the play to offer the option for the pass has worn me down. He always takes a touch instead of playing first time passes aswell. He's a good player, but for you to sit there and suggest he's in the class of Neville, Alves, Zambrotta or Eboue is laughable. Theres a lad who plays for Wigan for sake who's a far better player aswell, Ryan Taylor. Used to play for Tranmere. Top quality full back but not fasionable and not at a "big club".

Not that you haven't got a point about the few times he overlaps, but what he provides is more than nothing and I remember several good crosses this season. I mean you have a point saying sometimes he's a bit conservative, but I think you're a bit harsh saying that he has not a place in a big club like LFC.

You mentioned somewhere else something similar about Alonso being too deep. As far as I see football, I'm a bit Italian. Meaning that when I see a team with two clear strikers, an attacking midfielder like Gerrard and a pure winger I start trembling for the defensive balance. You NEED players that cover the backs of such an attacking display -- I laugh a lot when I read in the english press that Rafa's game is defensive when I see lots of teams in Spain with just one striker and two defensive midfielders.

The opposite to Finnan would be a Roberto Carlos type of LB in this case, lot of support to the attacking game of the team ---> lots of defensive gaps aswell.

So, should Finnan have sometimes more decission to go up? Yeh. Is that enough to make that a big mistake of Finnan? I don't think so. Has Finnan the stamina to go up and down repeteadly like Riise? I don't know. Should Alves improve what Finnan gives us? Definitely. Would Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, Internazionale, Manchester and Bayern sign up Alves aswell? I think so, so it's difficult to get him even if we can be serious competitors. And if you forget about Alves, or Lahm in the other side of the pitch, I cannot see LOTS of players that would improve what Finnan gives us. At the least, he should be present in our team as a squad player, and I stress "at the least".

Teams like Deportivo are playing CB like Coloccini in the RB position, and when they don't they're playing Barragan who played for our reserves and is on loan. A team like Barcelona was playing a shíte RB like Oleguer or Belletti before signing up Zambrotta, so as you can see, there are not dozens of good RB available in the market neither.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:36 am

Ladeulcateg wrote:I'm sick of the experience arguement. Its again by idiots who don't have a clue what they are talking about. Owen wasn't experienced at 17 when he scored 23 goals in his first season. Fowler wasn't at 18 when he scored 18 goals then 30 odd the next season... Rooney wasn't when he broke into the England team and took the euro's in 2004 by storm.

Agger is lazy, sloppy and not arially dominant. He's also not the most mobile. He's a good player, who's decent at everything a defender needs and he's better on the ball than most with his dribbling which can create space but he's not by any stretch of the imagination top class. Never has been and never will be.

What are you talking about?? strikers and defenders are different when it comes experience...defenders always get better with age and experience...strikers on the other hand doesn't need to rely on experience early on in their career because they can use their speed, power and fitness to outpace defenders like in the case of owen, anelka and alot others. but for defenders the older and more experienced they get the better. Did you even remember how carragher was like when he was 22 (that's how old Agger is)

Cause I remember thinking he must be the worst player in the liverpool squad cause he kept getting caught out of position and outpaced by strikers. But look what he has become now...a world class defender. Agger now is much more polished than Carragher was at 22. I won't be surprised if he becomes a world class defender too. On top of that his style and Carragher's styles compliment one another just like previously with Hyppia. That's bascially the main reason Reina is looking so good with alot of clean sheets. And he also has Hyppia acting as his mentor.

by **peterc1992** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:06 am

After todays performance,i think we are far from it,We didnt get anthing going,maybe we just didnt play good footballl today but i got so fustrated....

At the back were ok,i think we have a good back line and there are no problems there with a good keeper.

In midfield,we have 2 world class centre midfielders,and the mascherano and sissoko,two young mids that have nothing going forward,im not going to criticise them because i think there good and they must be given time.On the left i think we need to improve,we have Gonzalez,whos quick,but what else is he good for,and i can't see him on any team that will win a premier league.We have Zenden to replace him and Kewell who is STILL injured,Zenden is :censored:

and if we think we can win the league,we dont need wasters like him in the team.Pennat played well today when he came on and i'd like to see more of that from him,but we dont have a cristiano ronaldo or wayne rooney that can change a game in minutes,we have gerrard and alonso,but neither of them will get the ball and run at defenders and cause them all sorts of trouble .We need to bring in a world class left midfielder during the summer if we are going to win the league next year.

Up front we have no brilliant goal scorer besides fowler,who can't keep fit,and is too slow.Dirk kuyt is worth 14 million and for that money we could have brough michael owen back.Dirk kuyt works hard for the team but is not a goalscorer,Crouch isnt either and either is bellamy,and none of them are anything near Shevchenko,Drogba,Rooney,Ronaldo,Henry or even Baptista.

by **peterc1992** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:07 am

kobashi wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Ladeulcateg wrote:We need two first choice strikers. A right back. A left winger and a centre half before we can even think about winning the league.

Last season we had a far better side than this season. We had a fit Harry Kewell. Robbie Fowler upfront and Sami Hyypia at the back. This season we've failed to replace Kewell. We've missed Fowler every game he hasn't played and we've clearly failed to replace Sami Hyypia with a player of equal or better quality and no amount of make up can disguise this fact.

Last seasons team needed maybe one or two additions. This seasons needs at least 5 or 6. Simple as that.

I disagree.

We certainly do not need a right back as we've one of the best around already in Steve Finnan. I can't see how you reckon we've a worse side than last season. Hyypia is a rock, yes, but he lacks pace and was showing his age in the latter days of last year. I'd rather Aggar fill his shoes now and gain experience than having a player that's rapidly becoming dead wood.

Same as with Fowler. For those saying to keep him in the team is just folly as he is past his best. No one can argue with this. His finishing is there, yes, but he lacks vital things required for the top flight these days and that is power and pace to backed up with a killer stroke. To keep him in the side is just clinging to ghosts. Let it go, people.

Indeed we do need a right-winger and even a right-winger. Pennant isn't making the grade, but he had a hard task to begin with. We don't really need a center-half either. In fact, in any defensive area of the team, it's as good as it gets. We DON'T need more of that. A pacey, skilled left and right wide player, or maybe one central and two quality strikers and we're sorted.

Finnan is solid and thats it. These days u need more than that. Full backs have to be like wingers. No good having full backs who are useless once they cross the half way line. You look at Cole, Eboue, Evra, Neville, Cliche, they all are very comfortable in the final 3rd and constant threat down the flanks. Finnan offers nothing going forward and we need better than him if we want to progress. Cicinho would be fine with me.

Finnans a quality right back and i think we need a new right midfieldr rather than a right back.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:10 am

it says it all when none of our forwards are in double figures for this league season

by **puroresu** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:52 am

peewee wrote:it says it all when none of our forwards are in double figures for this league season

Exactly. While this year we have strikers that work harder for the team, the facts are none of them have scored anymore than the strikeforce we had last year. Kuyt was given a target of 18 goals and he will fail to achieve that. Many would say this side is better than last season's so is it unfair to expect at least one striker to get more goals than what Cisse got last year?

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