Liverpool FC Forum

by **Liverpool 4 EVA** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:39 pm

bavlondon wrote:
andy_g wrote:my point is really a wider one -as much as i am puzzled and annoyed by refas tactics in this game, i understand our shortcomings are in more areas than just that.

i'm really wondering about the great history of liverpool football club. we all seem to accept that we are going through a transitional stage but maybe that transition is and needs to be a bigger thing than we all suspect. we have our first foreign manager with a very different outlook on the game and a very different attitude about liverpool football club. we not even have anfield in a few years.

the question is 'do we go with him all the way?'. i suspect that for all he talks up his passion for english football and his knowledge of its history, that when it comes to the crunch he isn't really that bothered. all he's interested in is taking the club forward in his own way and hang the history.

a liverpool supporter feels more closely attached to his/her club than just about any other supporter anywhere on earth and the history and tradition of the club is uppermost our minds. but maybe its time to forget that? we have the trophies in the trophy room but they, to be honest, will get us nowhere any more. they're history - includiing last may.

to really move on we may have to disconnect ourselves from the baggage of the last. the manager already seems to have made up his mind to do just that.

I disagree with you !!!!!!!!!

Its ironic you should speak of Liverpool Footbal Club having so much depth and historical importance yet after one defeat you seem to have no depth in support whatsoever. Im sure none of you were "concerned" for the welfare of the club when we went past Juve Chelsea and in the final ? ?

Have some balls you people. Thats your problem you have no balls. Ive seen women on their periods who moan less than you. Are you just not mentally capable of keeping quiet for a few weeks. Im starting to think all this incesent whinging must mean that half the people on this forum are ages between 10 and 14.

LOL, great post mate, SPOT ON

by **andy_g** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:51 pm

LOL, idiot

by **Woollyback** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:15 pm

I don't think it's a question of abandoning all the principles and ideas of the Liverpool of old in the search for success, I think it's more a case of adapting those principles to the new footballing climate. Benitez is clearly one single-minded motherf*cker who believes in his plan 110% and I for one believe he will get it right sometime soon. Think of it this way, imagine somebody telling Shanks in his early days with Liverpool that his tactics aren't working and he shouldn't try to change the way we play too much? Imagine the response theyd've got? Most great managers will completely change the way the team plays out ON the field but that doesn't necessarily have to mean we have to change as an institution OFF it. Sure we have to perhaps become a bit more ruthless as a corporate entity but we certainly son't need to sell our soul to the devil in the process, just as we need to change the way we are set up as a team but without losing any of our heart and soul.

To make the best of what we have available is perhaps a quick-fix to our shortcomings and is nothing more than a sideways step, or even a backward one. Maybe we need a time where things just don't go right so we can see clearly where we do need to change things and where we need to add to the squad and trim it where needed. The alternative to me is going back to how we've played for the last 5/6 years and making no progress at all

Allow me to use a couple of well-used cliches to illustrate my point - "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" and "sometimes you need to take one step back to take 2 forward"

Too much has been made of the Chelsea game, for 2 reasons - firstly (and obviously) the scoreline flattered them in the extreme; we were the better side in the first half and they were better than us in the 2nd but certainly not 3 goals better. Secondly it's not Chelsea we should be measuring ourselves by this season, they are in a league of their own and to suggest we can challenge them for the title this season is pure folly. We need to measure ourselves against Manu & Arsenal

Don't get me wrong I'm not happy with our start to the season and would love to see us play a bit of 4-4-2 with Cisse & Crouch up front, but let's not get all fickle now. I am utterly convinced Rafa has a definite plan and will bust his balls to make it work and if that means a rough transition from the old to the new then I'm ready for the ride

by **zarababe** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:00 am

..I'm up for the ride too Woolls.. common sense prevails .. well a little at least

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:47 am

I love Liverpool since I was a teenager. It's my second team, if any Spanish team plays against Liverpool, I support Liverpool wholeheartedly. I reckon that I could never have the same love you do have for Liverpool though, because it's your first team, and you are all supporters of long tradition, and Liverpool fans are respected everywhere.

However, when a lover is scratched, passionated answers arise, I'll try to give you an opinion from "outside", with all due respect to all of you.

About Rafa not getting what Liverpool means: he does at some extent. He'll love Liverpool, but he will never be ABLE (even if he wanted) to be Bill Shankly, he can learn everything about Liverpool, as I do, but he cannot match the feeling for Liverpool that Shankly or all you have: you must have Liverpool on blood from childhood for that. But that doesn't mean he's not the right man for Liverpool.

About the "we lost only 3 points" answer. It's an standard answer you can listen here often when this kind of defeat comes. THe point of this answer is to avoid to put players in shame on the media, since that is what brings poisonous atmospheres. A different matter is what is said in the dressing room, though. I remember a decade a go Benito Floro just saying that after a full of Shame defeat of Real Madrid. He said exactly that to the media, we los 3 points. Somebody sneaked a micro in the dressing room though and what was listened "We are Real Madrid, and we should f*ck this f*ckin team with our penis" as he yelled the players. I think Rafa's reminder about "This is Anfield" plaque, and what Liverpool means, will come in the dressing room, looking to the player's eyes. There's no need to humilliate further the players on the media, and give another reason for Chelsea's fan joy. IMHO.

About "I'm tired of this guys who say we are champions of europe". fact: 2 weeks ago nobody was being THAT harsh with Rafa. fact: after the CL game against Chelsea, everybody was quite optimistic. fact : If now comes 5 victories in a row, every body will be happy, but nobody will remember that in 2009. People will remember the CL victory in 2009, though. Chelsea fans can be happy this week, but cannot say that they have 5 continental titles, and they can't say that Liverpool's European victories are a matter of the past, a thing of the XX century.

About current situation: I'm concerned, but not that much. I trust in this team to be honest. Betis (1) is in the bottom of the Liga, but yet, we all can see that they'll end around the CL positions. The same will happen to Liverpool. It's very difficult to play Sunday - Wednesday - Sunday, you need a DEEEEEEEEP roster to do that and actually not noticing it. YOu'll probably see that whenever Barcelona loses a game or draws at home, it's after a CL game. Real Madrid won 4-0, but with individualities and a weak opponent. Patience!!!!!! What Liverpool needs for sure to go up in the table, is your support.

Hope this post won't annoy anyone, it's not my will. I just wanted to send a possitive message from outside.

Sabre

(1) For the Joaquin trackers: Made excellent game in the CL. IN Anoeta he played as second forward due to the lack of forwards (Oliveira was banned) and was :censored:

at that position, unsurprisingly. He was put in the wing in the second half, and did harm, as always does the little b*stard.

by **76-1115222408** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:10 am

Anyone anooyed by this post is a p.rat to be honest.

Great post Sabre, I have to say I enjoy your input from the Spanish angle, it really is different - keep it coming mate!

we should f*ck this f*ckin team with our penis

Classic

by **JohnBull** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:15 am

Just before Shanks came we had the biggest load of garbage wearing red shirts, I remember getting beat by Middlesborough (I think) 2-1 and OUR centre half scored all three goals (2 OG and 1 header).
We are better now than for years and if Sunday hurts than that's good . Last May was great but there is, and always will be , only one cup worth winning - the Championship of England.
It will come, Stick with it !!!!!!!!

by **daddyo** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:13 am

Woollyback wrote:I don't think it's a question of abandoning all the principles and ideas of the Liverpool of old in the search for success, I think it's more a case of adapting those principles to the new footballing climate. Benitez is clearly one single-minded motherf*cker who believes in his plan 110% and I for one believe he will get it right sometime soon. Think of it this way, imagine somebody telling Shanks in his early days with Liverpool that his tactics aren't working and he shouldn't try to change the way we play too much? Imagine the response theyd've got? Most great managers will completely change the way the team plays out ON the field but that doesn't necessarily have to mean we have to change as an institution OFF it. Sure we have to perhaps become a bit more ruthless as a corporate entity but we certainly son't need to sell our soul to the devil in the process, just as we need to change the way we are set up as a team but without losing any of our heart and soul.

To make the best of what we have available is perhaps a quick-fix to our shortcomings and is nothing more than a sideways step, or even a backward one. Maybe we need a time where things just don't go right so we can see clearly where we do need to change things and where we need to add to the squad and trim it where needed. The alternative to me is going back to how we've played for the last 5/6 years and making no progress at all

Allow me to use a couple of well-used cliches to illustrate my point - "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" and "sometimes you need to take one step back to take 2 forward"

Too much has been made of the Chelsea game, for 2 reasons - firstly (and obviously) the scoreline flattered them in the extreme; we were the better side in the first half and they were better than us in the 2nd but certainly not 3 goals better. Secondly it's not Chelsea we should be measuring ourselves by this season, they are in a league of their own and to suggest we can challenge them for the title this season is pure folly. We need to measure ourselves against Manu & Arsenal

Don't get me wrong I'm not happy with our start to the season and would love to see us play a bit of 4-4-2 with Cisse & Crouch up front, but let's not get all fickle now. I am utterly convinced Rafa has a definite plan and will bust his balls to make it work and if that means a rough transition from the old to the new then I'm ready for the ride

I just love it when someone talks some sense!!!!!!

Every point on that post a winner!!

by **lakes10** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:18 am

JohnBull wrote:Just before Shanks came we had the biggest load of garbage wearing red shirts, I remember getting beat by Middlesborough (I think) 2-1 and OUR centre half scored all three goals (2 OG and 1 header).
We are better now than for years and if Sunday hurts than that's good . Last May was great but there is, and always will be , only one cup worth winning - the Championship of England.
It will come, Stick with it !!!!!!!!

hope it will not take 13 more years, i was not a great lover of GH but i feel we have taken a few steps back in the prem now we have RB, again Dont get me wrong RB is a great european manager but he still has very little understanding the premiership, and i truth i feel he is a bit slow in picking it up.
It will be interesting to see where he moves on to from here in the next few games...i just hope he dont feel that as soon as FERNANDO MORIENTES comes back all will be ok.

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:11 pm

andy_g wrote:during the post game interviews today Benitez was asked what he thought about the fact that this was the first time liverpool had conceded 4 at anfield for so many years. his reply was to the effect of 'no, not really. the important thing is that we lost 3 points'.

while in terms of the league he's absolutely right, in the greater scheme of things i'm not so sure. if this had happened during the reign of shankley and we'd lost a similar record i'm sure the response would have been very very different. he knew what liverpool football club is all about - the Kop, the anfield roar, the 'this is anfield' placque, the ground that everyone hates to come to. the signs that we are a great club with a great history and a great future. these are feelings that need to be upheld and are vitally important to LFC.

does benitez really recognise these facts? would we be better saying that with him we turn over a new leaf and start again? or do we need to have a belief around the club that these traditions are sacred and that to concede 4 at home is more than just 3 points lost?

To many fans it may be a shock but I think that Shankly's statistics are actually the worst of ALL our managers since the second world war up till the late 80s. If I'm not mistaken we lost nearly two hundred games with him in charge and only just managed to get a win ratio of over 50%. Despite this, in my humble opinion however he IS/WAS our greatest manager of all time

Jumping back to our present time, Rafa Benitez has one of the best records since Kenny Dalglish left after his spell in the 80s. We have won more games than we have for years, conceded less goals a game, even scored more to the amazement of some, and won our first major European trophy for 21 years.

If you want you can tint your glasses to see what you want, but its simple to see (if you want to) Rafa is without a doubt the best manager we have had since Kenny left, and possibly even as great as Paisley, Fagan and Shanks if time is allowed to tell.

by **Judge** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:47 pm

bring back dalgleish, then we can settle the stats back to how we used to be

going back to the chelsea game, unfortunately rafa had no answer to maureens tactics. if rafa had sprung a surprise or two, then maybe we'd be in the shouting position with a win. we will never know

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:23 pm

I think Paisley was the greatest manager we ever had... But Shanks set everything up, and Bob took it 2 or 3 stages on,

Its kinda impossible thing to measure, Bill Shankley was trully iconic, which is why we all love him, he put hunger into the club and set up on our way as the mopst succesful British club ever!

Bob Paisley won more trophies and continued the legacy.

Either way Benitez has started the journey well, but still has a long, long, long way to go to be able to match those 2 great forefathers of Liverpool Football Club.

I hope he does it and gets back to playing simple football, passing to the nearest red shirt, attacking every team, especially at Anfield and behaving like a gentleman, with a little sly dig every now and then.

I also hopes he gets the players to touch the "This is Anfield" sign, a tradition that is lost on many, the other day I only saw Reina and Carrager touch it!! Whats goin on?

by **andy_g** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:13 pm

the reason why i started this thread wasn't because i think benitez is a bad manger or that he should leave. i actually believe exactly the opposite and he has my support, though not quite to the 'in rafa we trust degree. many people chose to miss the point completely and see my posts as a tirade against the manager and a general lackk of support (i'm especially talking to you, bavlondon).

the interesting point is, i believe, rafael benitez's relationship with the history of liverpool football club. the fact that he didn't seem too bothered, on the surface, by the fact of us shipping 4 goals at home for the first time in god knows when - (people have various ideas about exactly how long). i believe that earlier managers, the shankleys, the paisleys, the fagans, who built the reputation and traditions of the club would have responded very differently. for them the honour and image of LFC was the most important thing in the world and they went to great lengths to ensure that people were aware of that.

so does benitez believe that the best way to take the club forward is to let go of those traditions? maybe he believes we're a club too hung up on its own history to really look to the future? maybe this isn't such a bad thing?

in a couple or three seasons we may not have our beloved anfield anymore. there'll be no Kop and no 'this is anfield' plaque to remind the players who they're playing for and against. maybe the truth is that we do have to let go to move on, to be a fully modern and once again dominant club.

again, i'm posing these as open questions because i think the issue is worthy of discussion.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:47 pm

Andy I think I understand exactly where you are coming from and you were probably correct in your assumption that some of the earlier posters had got the wrong end of the stick.
I wouldn't be too worried to be totally honest. 2-1 down to the team with possibly the meanest defence in Europe, you take off a defender and go 3-1 down so what do you do? You take off another and immediately go 4-1 down. Them's the breaks. I don't think that Rafa is unaware of the great traditions of LFC it's just that he's painfully aware of the current state of play. Reading between the lines of his post-match interview he seemed to be saying "they'll beat just about everybody anyways, don't worry about it" and annoying as it may be he's probably right.
The change in the traditional way of looking at things is reflected in the National side. We lose to Australia and Sven shrugs, "but it's only a friendly" and it's accepted. I've grown up watching football and watching England believing that there's no such thing as a friendly where they are concerned. Y'know what though? Even though it was bloody annoying for those of us who work with Australians, he was probably right as was Rafa on Sunday.
A while ago I posted up that Chelsea would probably win the title for the next five years at least. There should be an absolute stewards enquiry if they don't to be fair when you look at their vastly superior finances compared to all the other clubs added together. Somebody posted earlier that Chelsea's second string would probably get in the top four and they probably would. I was as gutted as anybody on Sunday but Rafa is right, our season will be defined in games other than the ones against Chelsea.
He's wrong about 4-5-1 though.

by **JBG** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:31 pm

I can see the following happening:

Chelsea go on to win the title this year by a country mile. Attendences and TV rating continue to fall. Chelsea then go out and buy another two top players next summer. They win the league at a canter again next year. TV ratings and attendances start to fall to their lowest level since the 1980s. The other top clubs get into a panic as does Sky, who doesn't want to cough up much money for TV rights. The other clubs get the smaller clubs to vote in a wage cap and a more equitable distribution of tv money. UEFA might also get involved if Chelsea start to dominate Europe and we start to see 15,000 show up for AC Milan v. Bayern Munich matches. I wouldn't put it past Chelsea to be involved in a huge agent/finance scandal in the next couple of years also. The Mikel Obi and Frank Arnesen things are a disgrace and probably a foretaste of whats to come.

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