Liverpool FC Forum

by **DAV** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:10 pm

I no we had a good win against Newcastle but this point still annoys me.
Shanks always called the domestic Football League his Bread and Butter. Winning the league is the number 1 priority. Europe is nice bonus to go with it.
Why dosent Houlier follow this theory if like he says "I have been a Liverpool Supporter all my life and want to take the club back to where they belong (Champions)".
Again like Shanks said if your not the best in your own country then how can you compete with the best in Europe.
What does everyone else think.
Lets say we come 4th in the League and qualify for the champions League.
How far does everyone think we will get in the competion?
Do you believe we would win it?
I personally think depending on the draw we could get to the quarter finals.
Would you class this a success because I wouldn't
People still go on about about when we lost to Leverkusen.
Well again if it was the final I would 2 but the fact is it wasn't.

by **big al** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:46 pm

The leauge is no longer the bread & butter sadly the champions leauge is now were the money is.
Thats why its so important to get into the champions league because if you can get to the group stages then you can then begin to use it as a springboard to mount a creditable title bid. Yes the League is still the top aim for us all but the way to getting that aim has dramatically changed. Especially with the growth in cosmopolitan football. No longer is it possible to win the League with home grown players. Its Ironic in a way - Once the cycle worked like this

Build a team to = win the league to = Play in europe

Now its

Play in europe to = get the money = build a team = to win the league = To play in Europe= To Get the money etc.

Makes it all the much harder for the smaller clubs to climb to the great heights Ie The Forrests and Aston villa's
Just look north to Celtic and Rangers can you imagine whatwould happen if they got further in the cahmpions league. The rest of the Scottish Premiership could forget about ever winning a game infact its actually getting to that point now. Once the top two used to be challenged by Aberdeen and the rest. Now they're just the whipping boys of Celtic.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:58 am

Hmm interesting. I actually agree with you for once.

But doesn't this prove how long it takes to build a championship side? 5 years... without making a mistake. Thats how long it took Ferguson who is probably one of the greatest managers ever (as much as i hate to admit it).

As for Wenger that was different, he inherrited a largely talented squad, the goalkeeper and a proven defence that knows each others game. He knew he didn't have to touch that. He could replace it once he'd built the rest of the team. Houllier and Ferguson both had to build from scratch.

Houllier will get it right. If not he'll leave Thompson a team that will win the league title and champions league.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:21 pm

DAV wrote:Again like Shanks said if your not the best in your own country then how can you compete with the best in Europe.
What does everyone else think.

100% right. Note how the only English club to reach the final of the Champions League and fluke it are manu, who also happen to have dominated the top flight for a decade now. Arsenal have been disappointing and other clubs have come and gone. I sometimes wonder why people get excited by the money in the Champions League. You have to spend the money from being in it to maintain any kind of challenge and cope with the extra games. Newcastle bought Woodgate and that didn't guarantee them anything. The money from Champions League is a pittance compared with the money clubs need to spend to win it or at least compete for it

by **big al** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:02 pm

Stu Wenger inherited a largely talented squad! ITWNTBLOBIWSHACBIIALOS

by **DAV** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:20 pm

As far as the money aspect of the champions league goes that dosent interest me. Trophy's do how ever.
In 10 years time if u look in a history book of football.
It will probabley say for the forth coming years.
Winners Real Madrid
Winners Ac Millan
and various other teams.
What it wont say is Liverpool lost to Leverkuson in an earlier round but played well and deserved to win.
or Liverpool have a side of potential but underachieve.
or Liverpool had many injuries with a full squad they could of won.

Anyway Houlier has spent over £100million on players and look where that has got us and where we are now.
Yes people might argue we could beat any team on our day.
True i agree with that statement only prob is we dont have many of these days.
Their seems to be a lack of commitment,ambition dedication and loyalty dosent come into it with these over paid imports we have.
Most of our players have no passion or desire to go to the next level.
I personally put the manager totally at fault for this.
If shanks had any player like that in his team they would be on loan faster to crewe untill their attitude changed.

by **oldredeyes** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:21 pm

Dav, you have raised some good points about Shanks and GH and I agree with your assessment of the Champions league and all that goes with it.
Shanks would never settle for fourth place in any competition and it wasn't the money that motivated him - it was winning!
I loved Shank's attitude in those heady days in the 60's when he took on the world - with very little money but tremendous conviction. He knew he could build a good side and he knew the supporters at Liverpool would work with him in a partnership that had never been seen before in the history of football.
Shanks really did start from scratch.
Shanks never made stupid promises (like GH!)
He just said the club had the potential to be the best in the world and he just got on with the job of proving it.
No false promises just results. No wonder the fans like me worshipped the ground he walked on.
If you saw one of my earlier posts you will recall the time I was in the KOP when Shanks joined the fans on the terraces to talk about the team and ask their opinion before the game started.
How many managers in todays game would do that?
I'm glad you drew the comparison with Shanks Dav, because you have shown that there actually is no comparison to be made. Shanks was a great football man and a supporters man. He had no hidden agendas and didn't seek to confuse people with infantile excuses when things went wrong - which wasn't very often.
He was just bloody honest!
Shanks would never settle for fourth in any competition - and neither should we!

by **HOMELEIGHKOP** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:50 pm

by **supersub** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:05 am

4th place.....it's a sad that a position that is not rewarded in any other competition,sport or non-sport is deemed a bigger goal than the greatest club cup competition in the world.This has been Houllier's objective every season to hopefully finish 4th or possibly higher.He always said he holds the champions league as his ultimate goal,whereas I like to start with the premiership first and then produce a team to conquer Europe and stay there.

by **leothelion** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:45 am

OLD RED EYES HAS SAID IT AGAIN LIVERPOOL WERE NEVER HAPPY TO SETTLE FOR ANYTHING BUT THE TOP SO WHY SHOULD THAT CHANGE NOW
WOULD ANY TEAM UNDER SHANKS,PAISLEY,KENNY OR ANY OTHER MANAGER FOR THAT MATTER HAVE GIVEN UP IN NOVEMBER DONT THINK SO
BUT WHEN I HEAR THE LIKES OF OWEN AND GERRARD SAYING ON TV IN EARLY NOVEMBER THAT THE BEST THEY CAN HOPE FOR IS TO QUALIFY FOR CHAMPIONS LEAGUE THAT DOESNT GIVE US MUCH TO LOOK FORWARD TO WHOSE FAULT IS THIS WHOSE SUPPOSED TO MOTIVATE THE TEAM
WOULD SHANKS HAVE GIVEN UP HELL NO HE WOULD STILL BE FIGHTING

by **Starbridge42** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:04 pm

I was quite annoyed when GH said that Liverpool was out of the title run and would settle for fourth place, they weren't even that far behind. If Liverpool have another loss he'll suddenly be saying he'd settle for 6th (the final UEFA Cup place) even if he was only 6 or 7 points behind whoever was in fourth. Come on GH, get your act together and inspire your side!

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:14 pm

We're in a funny situation at the moment. We have good players so we shouldn't a) get into relegation trouble or b) get into financial trouble. What we need is a team not just a group of good players. What we had when we were doing well was a solid defence but still no team. What we have now is a lot of good players and still no team - that is why we are struggling for consistency IMO. If Houllier could have sorted out the attacking problems without affecting the defence then we'd probably be in a far better position right now.

by **big al** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:36 pm

I've said this so many times before but 'Its totally impossible to compare Bill Shankily to Gerald Houllier.
Bill Shankly played competitive football and lived the ups and downs as a player
Houllier got into football through the back door as a teacher.

Bill Shankly understood the fans, the people who pay to be entertained.
Houllier works on a theory basis the fans are stupid and arogant!

That's all fine but;
Shankly loved the game as only someone who stood on a football field on a bitter cold winter afternoon, with the smell of winter green filling your nostrils and the andrenalin coursing through your blood with the anticipation of battle ahead.

The shouts of the supporters is dulled by the focus on your job for each man depends of the absolute convition and concentration of each individual team mate. Before is the enemy and they will try to stop you reaching your goal.

The bracing air and the sting of the centre halves studs on your calf remind you your alive and for those who are lucky they enter a place where few mortals go to more than once in their lives.

Today we name it the zone. Here in this place is nirvana, the ultimate experience, where everything you do is perfect, lesser players like most of us visit their rarely it compares with junkies who talk of their first Heroin rush.

The great players don't just visit there the dwell in the zone.
Houllier has never and will never experience this.

He will never know the other side of the zone, when no matter what you do its wrong, he will never no the frustartion that a player feels when they cannot find there place. They no its somewhere on the pitch somewhere they need to go and they will start to enter the zone, its like looking for a door to a different dimension you believe its somewhere and you convince others to swap positions so you can get your hit.

Houllier can and will never experience this thats why he's wrong for Liverpool, thats why the theory is desserting him because at times he needs to acknowledge that his team and himself are looking for the door.

Great managers like Shankly learn from there experience as a player that if you keep your shape, if you keep your discipline, if you believe in your team mates, if you hang on in there the door will find you. They know that football is the greatest sport because it demands perfection, one mistake and all your efforts are for nothing. I get very emotional and depressed when I look and reflect on whta we where, especially when My concerns make me an idiot and arogant, when other fans say I'm not a real fan.

Those of us who remember our greatness owe it to Bill Shankly to shout from the roof tops that what is happening to his legacy is wrong. we owe it to his memory and to the memory of every player, fan, and manager who have loved Liverpool. Love is not about accepting every thing its also about development, growth and esteem. It means we should say no as ofetn as yes and that we should never give up hope. Am I a true fan? I think so saying NO MORE MR HOULLIER does not take that from me.

I would add to all who feel offended by such daft comments. Its not important what others think as long as in your heart you no the truth 'Walk on with hope in your heart' and as long as we faithfully we remember what Shankly taught us we will 'never walk alone'

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:38 pm

Strikes me the only thing Houllier knows about the fans is where they sit! Maybe he misunderstands what "being behind him" actually means!

by **DAV** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:27 pm

al u said it all. we are not here to except whats going on, we have a voice. We will still be here supporting our team long after GH is gone.
GH wants to understand if their were no fans their would be no club.

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