Liverpool FC Forum

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:33 pm

I disagree with selling Gerrard to raise money.

I say we keep the good players we have rather than rip up the script and start buying guys who may or may not work out.

Sure, sell Gerrard and buy average players like Parker and SWP (decent Premiership players but no world beaters) but what happens if those new guys don't work out?

Money will come from somewhere, as Leon says, I think Moores will cough up some money for Benitez to spend. If he doesn't cough up, he'll hand to reigns over to someone else. I'm not kidding myself into thinking that Moores will give Bentiez 50million between now and the end of the summer out of his own pocket, but the club will find the money.

Those people who say we have sold better players before and survived make a bad arguement: Keegan, Souness and Rush were all sold after delivering big time at Liverpool and wanted a new challenge, and they left the club in an extremely healthy state. The club then wisely respent the money received from those sales on the likes of Daglish and Aldridge, but our track record in the market has been poor since the end of the 1990s.

As for Owen, time will tell if we will prosper and be a better side without him.

The only scenario I would accept (grudingly) where we sell Gerrard is where he is seriously unhappy and wants to go himself.

We will have a better chance of long term success if we hold on to our good players now, try to improve on the weaker ones and slowly but surely add some more quality to other areas over the next two or three seasons.

BTW Leon, do you think that 8million player is the young Italian forward from Brescia that we were linked with today?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:39 pm

I have it on good authority that it is not him, but a quality player.

I wont put my neck right on the line, but I have PM'd one or two people, and I will throw it on here when I know a little bit more.

From my man, his agent has been at the club today, discussing personal terms, and the only problem appears to be persuading his club to let him go. The figure is around £8m.

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:42 pm

If you don't want to put your neck on the block then PM me.

by **adayinthelife** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:43 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I have it on good authority that it is not him, but a quality player.

I wont put my neck right on the line, but I have PM'd one or two people, and I will throw it on here when I know a little bit more.

From my man, his agent has been at the club today, discussing personal terms, and the only problem appears to be persuading his club to let him go. The figure is around £8m.

Morientes by any chance

by **fivecups** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:46 pm

John Barnes' Granny wrote:The only scenario I would accept (grudingly) where we sell Gerrard is where he is seriously unhappy and wants to go himself.

We will have a better chance of long term success if we hold on to our good players now, try to improve on the weaker ones and slowly but surely add some more quality to other areas over the next two or three seasons.

Agree completely. Cashing in on one of our truly world class players is counterproductive.

by **adayinthelife** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:02 am

Just read the thread and wow mick and stu are u2 ok

Sell our best player and driving force of the team to buy average players like King 15m

SWP 10m

Gravesen

You mad ****** :laugh:

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:04 am

All fair JBG as long as you realise that I'm not saying sell Gerrard. (jeez I'm getting tired of saying that. Now I know how A.B. feels sometimes.)
On the question of SWP and Parker being 'average' players, that is a touch harsh in my view. I think they're both better than that. All the players I suggested buying if we were forced into selling Gerrard play in the Premiership with the exception of Morientes. If we are going to go searching La Liga and Serie A which I'm sure we would then I've got nothing intelligent to offer. I don't really watch any football other than English, don't get the time TBH.
That said, proven Premiership wouldn't be a bad addition on a CV of a prospective player at the moment. We've all had enough of silly gambles over the last couple of years.
I'm not saying sell Gerrard though. There, I'm not going to say that again. If people don't want to read it and slag me anyway then good luck to em.

by **A.B.** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:07 am

bigmick wrote:All fair JBG as long as you realise that I'm not saying sell Gerrard. (jeez I'm getting tired of saying that. Now I know how A.B. feels sometimes.)
On the question of SWP and Parker being 'average' players, that is a touch harsh in my view. I think they're both better than that. All the players I suggested buying if we were forced into selling Gerrard play in the Premiership with the exception of Morientes. If we are going to go searching La Liga and Serie A which I'm sure we would then I've got nothing intelligent to offer. I don't really watch any football other than English, don't get the time TBH.
That said, proven Premiership wouldn't be a bad addition on a CV of a prospective player at the moment. We've all had enough of silly gambles over the last couple of years.
I'm not saying sell Gerrard though. There, I'm not going to say that again. If people don't want to read it and slag me anyway then good luck to em.

Nicely said ........[dont feel like adding much more than that]

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:09 am

Stu the better players that have left the club did so after producing the goods for a good few seasons first.

I would tell you to watch this space on the purchasing of players. David Moores, love or loathe the man has ALWAYS stumped up plenty of cash for all the managers under his tenure.

Do you really think that Rafael Benitez would have left Valencia, where he was well settled and already enjoying GREAT success if he had not received very strong in fact cast iron guarantees that he could do what he wanted, and that he would be backed to the hilt with the required cash.

Lest we forget, Moores has backed Houllier twice with huge sums of money, twice smashing our record transfer fees in Diouf and Heskey, and I bet Moores will have had more than one or two reservations about both of them. If memoy serves, did the same not happen with Souness (Dean Saunders) and Roy Evans (Stan Collymore) and none of these players where exactly straight forward in that they where not top of the pile. But what Moores did was back his managers to the hilt.

I do see the logic, ie funding the purchase of a few players in problem positions, however you simply DO NOT sell your best players, before or at their peak.

Mark my words, I know that £8m has almost been agreed for one striker already, and the gaffer is still looking for two other top class players.

You don't KNOW That and seconly Owen left before his peak.

Leon, I've always jumped down peoples throats who suggest selling our best players and i also wouldnt' be suprised if we spent money on players in the window, but its a massive risk, its money we haven't actually got and if Benitez does make a mistake... which is possible, we're all human then we could be up shits creak. What if he does sign Morientes and he turns out to be another Veron, or we sign Anelka and he sulks and walks out, that could cost us a champions league place which would be fatal after spending that kind of money.

We are £15m in dept, it is a managable dept, but if we were to sell Gerrard, we could improve the squad immensely WITHOUT increasing the dept.

Like i've said to you, if he stays its an improvement of 1 top class player per year for the next three or four years. That still may not be enough.

by **Stan Laurel** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:16 am

banana wrote:We should only sell Gerrard when all other options have been tried. If you wan't to move forward, a rule of thumb must bee keep your best players, sell your worst players. Keep Gerrard sell Diao. The worst thing that can happen is sell Gerrard, keep Diao. Only buy players that strenghten the team. We are in an awkward position, Houllier has left a f@ckin mess. I am very happy that we have Benitez since I think he is one of the few men capable of turning us around. Next CL game vs Olympiakos is a massive one. Our hole season rest upon success in that game, since progressing in CL will allow us to sign a quality striker in January. The fans must turn up in numbers and be EXTREMELY VOCAL in that game.

What the hell are you talking about, for feck's sake!!!

You are unbelivable!!!

Just think carefully before you going to type this post, cos you are going to be make a fool of yourself!! Just think about it!

by **adayinthelife** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:16 am

stu_the_red wrote:We are £15m in dept, it is a managable dept, but if we were to sell Gerrard, we could improve the squad immensely WITHOUT increasing the dept.

Like i've said to you, if he stays its an improvement of 1 top class player per year for the next three or four years. That still may not be enough.

You don't have to spend 10m+ on a player for him to be a class act.

Like I said before I reckon Benitez will sign a few players whose contracts are up in June either on the cheap in January or on a free at the end of the season.

Selling Gerrard is not the answer unless he wants to leave.

by **JBG** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:19 am

stu_the_red wrote:, but if we were to sell Gerrard, we could improve the squad immensely WITHOUT increasing the dept.

I hear what you are saying Stu, but thats a massive IF!!

What happens if we sell Gerrard and the money is badly spent? Neil Ruddock, Paul Stewart, Stan Collymore, Jlian Dicks, Phil Babb etc were all quality Old Division One?Premiership players before we signed them yet look what happened (and before anyone says that those guys were always ****** then they should remember how good those guys were for their previous clubs).

Of course if we got funny money for Gerrard and bought 4 guys of great quality who delivered then there MIGHT be an arguement, but objectively, at least 50% of our signings since Daglish's management have been failures by one degree or another.

BTW Mick, I wasn't talking about you in my ealrier post, but was directing my comment towards those people who say that we sell Gerrard to raise funds.

If Gerrard is happy and wants to stay and roll up his sleeves, I wouldn't entertain selling him under any circumstances.

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:29 am

Proven players like Parker, Angel, Anelka, Malbranque, Duff, Vicente, Gallas, King, Baraja aren't bad players.

None of those would fail. We have a manager who can get the best out of players now. I'm not advocating gambling on unknown players, i'm on about signing the right players and quality players.

If someone offered you, Parker, Angel, Malbranque and Vicente... would you turn them down?

The only player out of those who wouldn't get into our side is Parker. Thats not because he's a bad player, thats because he'd have to get past Gerrard and Alonso who are both potentially world class.

However, Parker in my opinion, isn't as good as Gerrard, as good as Parker is he's a class below, but he's still a quality player who'd walk into most sides in the country.

If you were to sell Gerrard you would be able to sign those players.

Malbranque on the right, Vicente on the left, Angel upfront with Baros or Luis Garcia and Parker in to replace Gerrard.

You're losing a bit in one position but gaining ALOT in three other very weak (at the moment) positions. Also Vicente is top class and probably as good a player (obviously different) to Gerrard (although i feel Gerrard has slightly more potential).

by **adayinthelife** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:41 am

stu_the_red wrote:Proven players like Parker, Angel, Anelka, Malbranque, Duff, Vicente, Gallas, King, Baraja aren't bad players.

None of those would fail. If you were to sell Gerrard you would be able to sign those players.

You are making a huge assumption saying none of those players would fail as every player has some risk involved.

Duff or Vicente would cost close to 20m if the clubs involved would sell to us which I very much doubt.

The rest of those players would cost near 10m each at least and considering chelsea's bid for Gerrard was 30m your maths is way off.

by **JBG** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:53 am

Obviously I'd love those players, but look at it a little more closely:

Sell Gerrard to Chelsea for 35million (the price talked about last summer). Get 32million or so of that after agent fees and a cut for the player. Gerrard is rumoured to be on something like 60-70,000 a week at Liverpool. Therefore selling Gerrard would save Liverpool 3.3-3.5million a season (probably a small bit more allowing for bonuses), around 13-15million over the next 4 years.

Therefore selling Gerrard would raise around 45-47million over the next four years (when looked at in a vacum, all things being equal and not thinking about loss of merchandising, possible reduction in gate reciepts and possible loss of CL money due to his contribution on the playing field).

1. Damien Duff: signed for almost 17million by Chelsea and has lived up to his transfer fee. Earns just under 70,000 a week in wages. Peter Keynon has stated that Chelsea probably paid over the odds for some of their players under Ranieiri, and he thinks Duff's "real" value is 12-13million. Duff MIGHT become availbale at the right price given the form of Robben and the rumours that Chelsea want to sign another winger. To sign Duff, it would cost a club at least 12million, probably 17million. Lets give an average figure of 14million. Duff won't take much of a wage cut to join Liverpool, so in rough terms, keeping him for 4 years would instantly wipe out the savings made from not having Gerrard on the pay roll.

That leaves us with around 18million to play with.

2. Sign Scott Parker as Gerrard's replacement. Parker cost Chelsea 10million, but they won't get that back, no matter who the buyer is. Parker could fetch anywhere from 4million to 8 million, depending on the market. I don't know what he's on at Chelsea, but its definitely not less that 35,000 a week, probably 40,000 and could be as high as 45,000.

So lets say we sign Parker for a round figure of 6 million, and pay him 35,000 a week (these figures are generous to us, the club buying him). Keeping Parker for 4 years would cost around 1.7million a season (at least), possibly closer to 2million. Over 4 years thats between 6.5-8million. Total cost: minimum 12.5million, possibly closer to 15million.

Even going on the lower figure of 12.5million, that leaves us with only 5.5million to spend on a third player, which won't leave you much change after wages are paid. What you are looking at then is an average Bosman signing.

Of course, it could be argued that these players could retain a transfer value and could be sold on towards the end of their contracts, but few money men now look at players like that nowadays, as nothing can ge guaranteed.

Of course, we could get extra leeway by getting rid of some other big earners at the club which would allow us to spend more of the Gerrard money on players, but that's not guaranteed either: look at Diouff, Diao and Cheyrou. We had to subsidise Heskey's move to Birmingham, and if Kewell or Diouff were to be sold in January, they would insist (and be legally within their rights to do so) that they will not take a big pay cut at another club unless Liverpool pay out the balance of their contracts.

The cold reality is that selling Gerrard would not allow us to buy 4 or 5 quality players in his place, but probably one top bracket guy, one decent guy, and the other a pot shot at a bigish name Bosman signing.

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To develop stu's point.

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