Liverpool FC Forum

Boxscarf » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:31 pm wrote:

LFC2007 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:34 pm wrote:Concern is fine, but I think it's only fair to wait and see what business we actually do before slating the owners.

I find it concerning that Rodgers has come out and said he might have to dip into the loan market to bring in some players to bolster up our squad ahead of the new season. Where is the investment? We're losing footballers left, right and centre and it doesn't appear that they'll be replaced and that's worrying to me. These Owners want Champions League football and the extreme wealth that comes with competing in such a rich competition, yet they don't seem to want to investment in the team. In order for us to get back into contention with the top English clubs for a place in the competition, we need a much better team and a much better squad, yet we won't achieve our aspirations if we're forced to dip into the loan market for players.

We've bought just one player in this transfer window and that worries me, because most teams will make a vast majority of their signings in early July, so those players can get pre-season under their belt at the club. So far it's Borini and he alone won't transform our fortunes. It's time for FSG to open up the cheque book and allow Rodgers to bring in a better array of talent and if they aren't prepared to do that, then I'm afraid they aren't the right owners for us, because we cannot get better without investment in the team.

I dont think its fair to blame our owners (current or past) for a lack of investment. The only 2 clubs that have spent more than Liverpool in the past 5 years or so have been Chelsea and ManCity. Even the likes of ManUtd and Arsenal who obviously have better finances than us have spent less yet seemingly have better squads. Our problems unfortunately extend beyond simple 'investment' as you put it. In the last 18months we spent close to 130million in players who are probably worth half that amount. You also have the issue of changing managers and all the losses resulting from that. Ill give you a simple example: 2009, we sign Aquilani. The next manager doesnt want him so thats 18-20 mill wasted. 2010, we sign the likes of Meireles, Jones, Cole, Poulsen, Jovanovic..etc , the next manager wants nothing to do with them, and thats another 20mill or so wasted. 2011, we sign Carroll, Henderson, Adam, amongst others. All players the current manager seemingly doesnt deem good enough for a starting spot. Might be too early to tell whether these transfers are going to backfire the same way the other ones did but its more or less 60mill spent on players who aren't in our starting plans.

Again to put things in perspective, you look at the likes of Chelsea, Manutd, Arsenal and Spurs and they all seem to do much much better than we do in the transfer market. Obviously Chelsea spend more than we do but the other who don't spend as much as we do have all signed better players who have had a significant impact on the side.

I dont care what anyone says i know we should of used Aquilani. Dont care all your rubbish excuses blaming him. A good manager would of least given him a chance. The reason we have failed is simple. Alonso leaving yes big loss but also Stevie G. Up tiill a couple of years ago how many times did he get us out of jail. So with not playing Aqua and stevie always injured we have no-one in the middle to create things. It seems to me the managers have all dismissed Aqua because of his defensive qualities wanting to keep it tight. So theyve replaced him with the same type as in henderson and adam and next Allen. So you tell me between Adam henderson Allen Lucas. who is gona be our creative maestro. If were playing 4-3-3 surely we need someone in the middle who is comfortable on the ball. Plus another mistake instead of buying 1 maybe 2 top class players we keep 3 or 4  good players because of wages.

aCe' » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:09 pm wrote:Even the likes of ManUtd and Arsenal who obviously have better finances than us

Again to put things in perspective, you look at the likes of Chelsea, Manutd, Arsenal and Spurs and they all seem to do much much better than we do in the transfer market. Obviously Chelsea spend more than we do but the other who don't spend as much as we do have all signed better players who have had a significant impact on the side.

Man Utd don't have better finances than us, they were able to cover the cracks because they were consistently successful. The sale of Ronaldo for example, hardly any of it was reinvested to the squad. And the Glazers recently admitted that about 50% of the sale of shares will be used to pay debts. But I do agree that the 4 teams you mentioned have spent WAY better than us over the years, and that's not down to being in Europe, that's simply down to having better scouts, an eye for talent and common sense whereby paying for overrated British "talent" is concerned. Chelsea might have spent more but they do occasionally sign players at bargain prices, players whom we could have easily afford - Cahill and Marin.

Any stattos feeling bored? Id like to know the total amount FSG have spent not taking into account money generated through players sales.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/liver ... in_31.html

useful site for transfers and associated revenue.

Period - 2009/2010 - 2012/2013

Gross spend ~ £155m
(the one that matters - Net spend ~ £37m)

Need to dig up non transfer related spending, besides the initial investment to clear up debt, but tbh can't think of anything other than fees to commission plans for a new stadium. I don't think there's been added investment in the youth academy above and beyond previous years.

Interesting comparisons over the same period (Gross/Net):

Arsenal ~ £110m / -£12m
Man U  ~ £120m / -£8m
Newcastle ~£40m / -£38m
Spurs ~ £85m / £0.25m
Man C ~ £370m / £270m
Chelsea ~ £300m / £250m

Arsenal, Mancs, Spurs have made money over the same period through transfers ...

And just for kicks:

Real Madrid ~ £350m/£265m
Barcelona ~ £230m/£120m

Dunno what the net spend is.  Obviously alot was done last summer, I'd put it at about 40 million or so.  Keep in mind they never said they were going to put their own money into the squad.

The Good Yank » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:27 am wrote:Dunno what the net spend is.  Obviously alot was done last summer, I'd put it at about 40 million or so.  Keep in mind they never said they were going to put their own money into the squad.

That's fair enough, but where is the money coming from for transfer fees? Is it coming from the 'profits' the club makes through merchandising, gate receipts, competitions etc? Or is that money coming from player sales out of the club? Rodgers so far has made one signing in Fabio Borini who has cost anywhere from £7m to £11m and Rodgers coming out a few days ago and suggesting that he's going to have to bring in a few players on loan sent alarm bells ringing inside my head. I understand that FSG want to run us the right way, they want the club to only spend what it generates, they know it's unsustainable to constantly pump their own personal fortune into the club. However with Chelsea and City's spending, that's two of the four Champions League places gone for next season which leaves Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United, Newcastle and Tottenham Hotspur fighting it out for the other two spots which makes it even more important and vital that we get better calibre of footballers into the club. I fail to understand how we can do that without investment from the Owners directly. It's just frustrating to see that over the last three years we've lost vital players like Alonso, Arbeloa, Aurelio, Hyypia, Mascherano and Torres and we haven't replaced them with like for like quality because we don't have Champions League football.

It's like we're locked into a vicious cycle here, we need to spend more money on better players because of years of wastage, more recently under Dalglish if we are to get into the Champions League football. The club knows that it cannot do this because of the Fairplay rules and wants to do things the right way, the sustainable way, yet by doing this we are going to find it very difficult to move forwards, especially when City and Chelsea are snapping up some of the World's finest footballers with little or no adherence to the rules on spending with regards to the Champions League.

The regression of this club over the last three years has been phenomenal and while the likes of Chelsea, City and United continue to improve I'm scared that we're in danger of slipping further and further behind, we could end up becoming the next Aston Villa. A big club which is just so far behind that the only way they'll get back to the highs they enjoyed under Tony Barton is by having a sugar daddy owner like Abramovich.

tubby » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:34 pm wrote:Sorry but if Allen and Borini are the only permanent players we sign this window I'll be fking fuming. Is their plan wait for the redeveloped stadium before putting in any more money? Fk sake it's like de ja vu all over again.

Allen hasn't signed for us has he?

Boxscarf » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:13 am wrote:

The Good Yank » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:27 am wrote:Dunno what the net spend is.  Obviously alot was done last summer, I'd put it at about 40 million or so.  Keep in mind they never said they were going to put their own money into the squad.

That's fair enough, but where is the money coming from for transfer fees? Is it coming from the 'profits' the club makes through merchandising, gate receipts, competitions etc? Or is that money coming from player sales out of the club? Rodgers so far has made one signing in Fabio Borini who has cost anywhere from £7m to £11m and Rodgers coming out a few days ago and suggesting that he's going to have to bring in a few players on loan sent alarm bells ringing inside my head. I understand that FSG want to run us the right way, they want the club to only spend what it generates, they know it's unsustainable to constantly pump their own personal fortune into the club. However with Chelsea and City's spending, that's two of the four Champions League places gone for next season which leaves Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United, Newcastle and Tottenham Hotspur fighting it out for the other two spots which makes it even more important and vital that we get better calibre of footballers into the club. I fail to understand how we can do that without investment from the Owners directly. It's just frustrating to see that over the last three years we've lost vital players like Alonso, Arbeloa, Aurelio, Hyypia, Mascherano and Torres and we haven't replaced them with like for like quality because we don't have Champions League football.

It's like we're locked into a vicious cycle here, we need to spend more money on better players because of years of wastage, more recently under Dalglish if we are to get into the Champions League football. The club knows that it cannot do this because of the Fairplay rules and wants to do things the right way, the sustainable way, yet by doing this we are going to find it very difficult to move forwards, especially when City and Chelsea are snapping up some of the World's finest footballers with little or no adherence to the rules on spending with regards to the Champions League.

The regression of this club over the last three years has been phenomenal and while the likes of Chelsea, City and United continue to improve I'm scared that we're in danger of slipping further and further behind, we could end up becoming the next Aston Villa. A big club which is just so far behind that the only way they'll get back to the highs they enjoyed under Tony Barton.

Not too concerned with the likes of City, Chelsea. PSG, Barca, RM, but I was a bit taken aback looking at United's net spend over the same period (since NESV took over). I'd have to agree with some of the posters here that some teams (and their managers) have been far more astute in their spending.

I would still maintain that when the premiership bubble bursts (and this is not a question of IF, but WHEN) we need to be in a position where we can sustain ourselves through revenue generated from LFC and not through sugar-daddies.

I can see a point were by Fenway will come under pressure from fans because I personally
find it hard to beleive we can be 'competitive' on the cheap.

I understand they have great faith in the Rodgers style and philosophy but it can only take
you so far and you still need top players to compete.

You have to give these guys a chance though and I dont think we are at that point yet but
fans here have been burnt before so will keep a close eye on events.

If Fenway ever have a moment when they feel a few of the right words will fool anyone they
better think again as if there are signs they are not willing to to go the whole hog to get us
back amongst it fans will be all over them no doubt about that.

parchpea » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:31 am wrote:I can see a point were by Fenway will come under pressure from fans because I personally
find it hard to beleive we can be 'competitive' on the cheap.

I understand they have great faith in the Rodgers style and philosophy but it can only take
you so far and you still need top players to compete.

You have to give these guys a chance though and I dont think we are at that point yet but
fans here have been burnt before so will keep a close eye on events.

If Fenway ever have a moment when they feel a few of the right words will fool anyone they
better think again as if there are signs they are not willing to to go the whole hog to get us
back amongst it fans will be all over them no doubt about that.

They are taking a gamble and there's not much we can do except go along with it and pray that it works. BR has a definitive style and it will take him a while to find the players to fit into it. The challenge on hand is that the domination that Man U and Barca have had in their respective years has been down to a strong, core group of kids coming through the academy. BR won't be so lucky and will really need to dig in deep to find the sort of talent that can not only play to his style, but lift us back into the challenging group.

Let's not kid ourselves, this is a long-term project and I will re-iterate that as fans, we really do need to reset our expectations.

Simari » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:38 am wrote:

parchpea » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:31 am wrote:I can see a point were by Fenway will come under pressure from fans because I personally
find it hard to beleive we can be 'competitive' on the cheap.

I understand they have great faith in the Rodgers style and philosophy but it can only take
you so far and you still need top players to compete.

You have to give these guys a chance though and I dont think we are at that point yet but
fans here have been burnt before so will keep a close eye on events.

If Fenway ever have a moment when they feel a few of the right words will fool anyone they
better think again as if there are signs they are not willing to to go the whole hog to get us
back amongst it fans will be all over them no doubt about that.

They are taking a gamble and there's not much we can do except go along with it and pray that it works. BR has a definitive style and it will take him a while to find the players to fit into it. The challenge on hand is that the domination that Man U and Barca have had in their respective years has been down to a strong, core group of kids coming through the academy. BR won't be so lucky and will really need to dig in deep to find the sort of talent that can not only play to his style, but lift us back into the challenging group.

Let's not kid ourselves, this is a long-term project and I will re-iterate that as fans, we really do need to reset our expectations.

the thing is though mate it`s £50 to go to a game these days, it`s one thing turning up through the bad days when it`s half a crown or £1.20 to get in to the game but £50 is a lot of money, especially up here. people will pay that money to watch top players playing for an ambitious team but imo they arent going to pay that to watch a team of also rans.
when hodgson was struggling there were some alarming gaps around the stadium even on a saturday afternoon, if it cost £25 then i`m sure the stadium would be full but if we as fans have got to lower and re-set our expectations then maybe the club has to as well.

it is indeed a long-term project and we can't afford to be changing managers every season anymore. There needs to be continuity so we need to have faith in Rodgers. Rodgers saying we may need to look at the loan market is perfectly understandable... if we can't find a player that can fit into our system, it is better to loan players than make a panic buy like we did with Carroll...

maguskwt » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:53 pm wrote:it is indeed a long-term project and we can't afford to be changing managers every season anymore. There needs to be continuity so we need to have faith in Rodgers. Rodgers saying we may need to look at the loan market is perfectly understandable... if we can't find a player that can fit into our system, it is better to loan players than make a panic buy like we did with Carroll...

whats has rodgers achieved to justify that `backs to the wall` type loyalty though? look at what dalglish has done for this club and yet he wasnt allowed 1 poor season (in the league), why should the wagons be circled around a protege of mourinho who`s won nothing but not around a genuine anfield legend who`s won everything?
rodgers has had 4 managerial jobs, in his first at watford they finished 13th after spending half the season in the relegation zone, in his second at reading he was sacked because results were so poor, in his next job at swansea he took them up via the play offs after finishing behind neil warnocks QPR and paul lamberts norwich and now he`s here. this isnt ancient history this all happened in the last 4 years.
it`s all very noble backing rodgers but what if he just isnt up to the job, apart from a few inspiring words and an ability to write 180 page dossiers he`s done nothing. this really is a critical stage in our history, with owners with a philosophy of keeping wages low and buying up and coming players undervalued by the market and with clubs looking at poaching our best players the wrong manager now and we could join the ranks of the fallen giants of english football.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:30 pm wrote:

maguskwt » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:53 pm wrote:it is indeed a long-term project and we can't afford to be changing managers every season anymore. There needs to be continuity so we need to have faith in Rodgers. Rodgers saying we may need to look at the loan market is perfectly understandable... if we can't find a player that can fit into our system, it is better to loan players than make a panic buy like we did with Carroll...

whats has rodgers achieved to justify that `backs to the wall` type loyalty though? look at what dalglish has done for this club and yet he wasnt allowed 1 poor season (in the league), why should the wagons be circled around a protege of mourinho who`s won nothing but not around a genuine anfield legend who`s won everything?
rodgers has had 4 managerial jobs, in his first at watford they finished 13th after spending half the season in the relegation zone, in his second at reading he was sacked because results were so poor, in his next job at swansea he took them up via the play offs after finishing behind neil warnocks QPR and paul lamberts norwich and now he`s here. this isnt ancient history this all happened in the last 4 years.
it`s all very noble backing rodgers but what if he just isnt up to the job, apart from a few inspiring words and an ability to write 180 page dossiers he`s done nothing. this really is a critical stage in our history, with owners with a philosophy of keeping wages low and buying up and coming players undervalued by the market and with clubs looking at poaching our best players the wrong manager now and we could join the ranks of the fallen giants of english football.

Every new manager talks about it taking time to build a team and Rodgers is no different but in
reality you dont get time and frankly you dont need it either.

Football teams can be built quickly if you get the right players in but these guys buy themselves
breathing space by kidding us we have to buy into a 'project' scenario and keep it shut when the
team plays poorly whilst the thing 'evolves'.

Despite having a reputation for being a patient support I am not convinced the club has the
stomach for a long term project anymore (I admit I dont!) and the longer it goes
without meeting expectation (which will always be high here) the harder it gets to buy into
another rebuild job.