Liverpool FC Forum

by **jacdaniel** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:21 pm

red till i die!! wrote:surprised to see that so many blame our problems solely on carroll and it isnt fair on him as he isnt responsible for all this mess.

I don't think anyone is really solely blaming things on Carroll. I think Carroll has been rubbish so far. He hasn't shown anything to suggest he'll ever be a good striker. The other new signings have all at least had some really good moments.

But overall I wouldn't even say we're in a mess. If we can win a couple of games in a row we could be back up there at the beginning of the new year with a cup semi final to play also. Thats progress considering last January we were 12th in the league and were out of the Carling Cup in our first game.

We just need to stop forcing the Carroll issue and leave him on the bench for now.

by **Octsky** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:42 pm

Kerry07 wrote:To criticise Suarez is the lowest form of defence. Oh but but... Suarez scored f**k all against Man U in the 3-1 win...yes he created all three goals but he didn't score. Suarez has the 2nd highest amount of passes this season (behind only Rooney) and has created umpteen chances (twice for the awkward big lump vs Fulham). Luis Suarez is the type of player who could go through an entire season without scoring and be man of the match in 90% of them.

There is no question hes frustrated when paired with Carroll...who is the worst possible foil for him. Carroll does not have the skillset to play alongside technical players, his game is in the air, direct, long balls, getting on the end of stuff, bypassing midfield entirely.

If we aspire to be Wimbledon (Bolton under Sam) and finish where we currently sit, then Carroll is our man. If we aspire to play pass and move, retain possession, have fluid interchanging with people moving around, and finish top 4/challenging for league titles, then Carroll is discarded pronto and the error made 12 months ago dealt with.

agreed with you on Suarez 110%, he can go on and score zero
goals all season and still win LFC player on the season.

but you need to calm down on Carroll, "big strikers" can still succeed in a "pass and move" team. i rmb Kanu and Adebayor playing well at Gooners. Ibra also played at top teams in the world (Barca, Inter, AC). and Van Nesteroy scored bunch of goals for manu and Real scum.

imagine yourself buying a real expensive Adidas boots which is very uncomfortable, you are still going to try to wear it a few more times before selling it at ebay.
thats the logic, play Carroll maybe half a season more to prove himself before deciding to sell him away (maybe at a 10m loss) and move on.

by **Kenny Kan** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:51 pm

Octsky wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:To criticise Suarez is the lowest form of defence. Oh but but... Suarez scored f**k all against Man U in the 3-1 win...yes he created all three goals but he didn't score. Suarez has the 2nd highest amount of passes this season (behind only Rooney) and has created umpteen chances (twice for the awkward big lump vs Fulham). Luis Suarez is the type of player who could go through an entire season without scoring and be man of the match in 90% of them.

There is no question hes frustrated when paired with Carroll...who is the worst possible foil for him. Carroll does not have the skillset to play alongside technical players, his game is in the air, direct, long balls, getting on the end of stuff, bypassing midfield entirely.

If we aspire to be Wimbledon (Bolton under Sam) and finish where we currently sit, then Carroll is our man. If we aspire to play pass and move, retain possession, have fluid interchanging with people moving around, and finish top 4/challenging for league titles, then Carroll is discarded pronto and the error made 12 months ago dealt with.

agreed with you on Suarez 110%, he can go on and score zero
goals all season and still win LFC player on the season.

but you need to calm down on Carroll, "big strikers" can still succeed in a "pass and move" team. i rmb Kanu and Adebayor playing well at Gooners. Ibra also played at top teams in the world (Barca, Inter, AC). and Van Nesteroy scored bunch of goals for manu and Real scum.

imagine yourself buying a real expensive Adidas boots which is very uncomfortable, you are still going to try to wear it a few more times before selling it at ebay.
thats the logic, play Carroll maybe half a season more to prove himself before deciding to sell him away (maybe at a 10m loss) and move on.

Kanu, Ibra and even Crouch all had FEET.

by **jacdaniel** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Octsky wrote:play Carroll maybe half a season more to prove himself before deciding to sell him away (maybe at a 10m loss) and move on.

It would currently be a much heavier loss than 10M. I reckon we'd only get 10M for him at the moment. And his impact on the team could also cause us to miss CL which is probably about 30M.

by **only me** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:02 pm

Kenny Kan wrote:
Octsky wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:To criticise Suarez is the lowest form of defence. Oh but but... Suarez scored f**k all against Man U in the 3-1 win...yes he created all three goals but he didn't score. Suarez has the 2nd highest amount of passes this season (behind only Rooney) and has created umpteen chances (twice for the awkward big lump vs Fulham). Luis Suarez is the type of player who could go through an entire season without scoring and be man of the match in 90% of them.

There is no question hes frustrated when paired with Carroll...who is the worst possible foil for him. Carroll does not have the skillset to play alongside technical players, his game is in the air, direct, long balls, getting on the end of stuff, bypassing midfield entirely.

If we aspire to be Wimbledon (Bolton under Sam) and finish where we currently sit, then Carroll is our man. If we aspire to play pass and move, retain possession, have fluid interchanging with people moving around, and finish top 4/challenging for league titles, then Carroll is discarded pronto and the error made 12 months ago dealt with.

agreed with you on Suarez 110%, he can go on and score zero
goals all season and still win LFC player on the season.

but you need to calm down on Carroll, "big strikers" can still succeed in a "pass and move" team. i rmb Kanu and Adebayor playing well at Gooners. Ibra also played at top teams in the world (Barca, Inter, AC). and Van Nesteroy scored bunch of goals for manu and Real scum.

imagine yourself buying a real expensive Adidas boots which is very uncomfortable, you are still going to try to wear it a few more times before selling it at ebay.
thats the logic, play Carroll maybe half a season more to prove himself before deciding to sell him away (maybe at a 10m loss) and move on.

Kanu, Ibra and even Crouch all had FEET.

It really doesn't matter ,we played 13+ games so far ,Carrol started maybe half (?) ,if that is enough for you to pass final judgment good for you. If i apply this standard of yours on the rest then i guess we should have departed with more then half the squad (Carra ,Johnson ,Skertle ,Hendo ,Downing ,Lucas to name a few...).

by **Thommo's perm** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:58 pm

I guess I'll have to say it again for all those enlightened people who keep going on about Carrolls feet
Am I wrong in thinking the only goal hes scored with his head for us was against Man City? And the rest have been with his...ahem...feet?
Correct me if Im wrong
Please

by **supersub** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:35 pm

I would just like to say I don't think we are in a mess;I do however believe Carroll is sh!t and will never be a decent footballer...We will succeed without him , we will fail if he plays

by **destro** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:44 pm

I heard on the radio that he has played the full 90 minutes in 5 games this season, out of those 5 games we won 4 of them. The one we lost was when we played Spurs with 9 men. Carroll is hardly solely to blame for any lost points. I think that sometimes we just decide to hit a cross with out any precision and hope he gets his head to hit, a bit of work on set pieces IMO would not be a bad idea ( see the thread about corners ). I have looked at him closely a couple of times this season pointing to the ground for balls to be played in to his feet after he has watched yet another cross fly feet over his head. At least he is trying, he isn't hiding out on the pitch ( taking the penalty ) he is trying to justify his place in the starting 11 and get rid of the ridiculous price tag he has hanging round his neck.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:00 pm

He is working really hard for the team, his touch has improved since when he first arrived last year after his injury, oppostion defenders hate playing him which mean he makes space for other people in the box, he doesnt hide in a match. I have no problem with him, his only fault at the moment is he is not finding the back of the net but he is getting the odd chance, even when the supply to him has been poor, and lets face it, we have nobody scoring loads of goals at the moment.

A few years ago it was Lucas. he proved loads of people wrong

Earlier this season it was Adam. he proved loads of peoplw wrong

Now its Carrolls turn.

YNWA (well sometimes you do now, coz fans have no patience and are as fickle as fu<k, shocking)

by **Kerry07** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:24 pm

only me wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:
only me wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:As i said before, Andy Carroll will be a 13 to 14 goal a season player at a direct long ball team. There is no pedigree there, hence there is no "coming good". This is not a player who was highly touted, a player with rave reviews. This is a player who was on the market for 2 million pound sterling in August 2009, 1 season in the Dean Windass championship, and 5 months winning flick ons for a direct long ball midtable team. Michael Ricketts had more pedigree in January 2002 after his spell at Bolton. Andy Carroll is a limited player technically, a player who is alien to a pass and move technical style of play. A player with pedigree Robbie Keane did far more in his 5 months here than the big awkward fella Carroll has done in almost a year and he was turfed out. How long do we persist with a player who makes us worse? Fulham away this season, Fulham away last season.... chalk and cheese.

We paid 35 million for Carroll, he is on 80k per week, on a 5 and a 1/2 year contract...thats 57 million expenditure on Andy Carroll. This season we almost certainly won't get Champions League football (theres 20 million plus lost) due largely to poor team selection of leaving inform players on the bench (Maxi) who also make us fluid, and playing players (Carroll) who have never done it and wreck the fluidity of the team. Thus far thats 77 million, another season of this and the 100 million pound barrier has been breached due to a solitary transfer decision on transfer deadline day of January 2011.

If we were being run by a sheik and could afford to throw money down the toilet then fine, but we arent. This will cost us bigtime. How long can we keep haemorrhaging money? "Give the lad time, yes hes only 23 and has never done it, but give the lad another 2 or 3 years by which time the 200 million cost barrier will be breached, we will be hovering around the 7th place where we are now, playing the same disjointed cr@p when the awkward cumbersome big fella plays... give it time lads, while the top clubs leave us out of sight"

Nicely written but what does it has to do with our team condition? you spend so many words and i still don't get the connection to the topic of the thread which is Andy Carrol.

How many Goals did our Mega Star Suarez netted this season? And the rest of the strikers and chicken Wingers? We have a problem as a TEAM scoring so far ,be it Carrol for the big part but the rest are quick to follow. How many games did Carrol play so far? Did he get a chance to play 5-10 games straight? You are talking of Maxi which is fluid as old man bowl movement (yes he scored twice so what?) ,Is Kuyt more effective? Is Hendo ,Downing and Adam delivering the results so far? So the only difference is the price tag right? You can thank Chelsea for that don't blame Andy.

Let him play straight games till the end of the year at least and then decide if he is worth the bother.

To criticise Suarez is the lowest form of defence. Oh but but... Suarez scored f**k all against Man U in the 3-1 win...yes he created all three goals but he didn't score. Suarez has the 2nd highest amount of passes this season (behind only Rooney) and has created umpteen chances (twice for the awkward big lump vs Fulham). Luis Suarez is the type of player who could go through an entire season without scoring and be man of the match in 90% of them.

There is no question hes frustrated when paired with Carroll...who is the worst possible foil for him. Carroll does not have the skillset to play alongside technical players, his game is in the air, direct, long balls, getting on the end of stuff, bypassing midfield entirely.

If we aspire to be Wimbledon (Bolton under Sam) and finish where we currently sit, then Carroll is our man. If we aspire to play pass and move, retain possession, have fluid interchanging with people moving around, and finish top 4/challenging for league titles, then Carroll is discarded pronto and the error made 12 months ago dealt with.

So if Carrol is replaced we would contend for the CL spot? By stating that you close a blind eye ,close the curtain ,go into the cupboard ,lock the doors and totally ignore our Mediocre Midfield which bears the responsiblity for our lack of attacking power.

you are missing the point, no one thinks that Andy is having a good year ,he is highly not effective and looks pretty lost ,but to say that his presence is what is holding back Adam and Hendo and Downing and Yes Even Suarez is pure BS. I only state that giving him a chance to play full games in a row (If Kuyt and Lucas got it for god sake for years) is a minimal requirment before letting him go. The rest of the MD needs to pick up as well ,Scoring only 17 goals isn't Carrols fault.

And Suarez ,which i'm not trying to belittle ,has been miles from being clinical and effective as he can be.

The team that played against Fulham last season would be contending for Champions League spots yes..and following that performance everyone outside the club saw us being a force this season. We got rave reviews and created umpteen chances, wave after wave of pass and move, turned them inside out. We sacrifice this style of play when we accomodate a player who is alien to this, and does not possess the technique/skillset of those around him. The ilk of Suarez, Bellamy, Maxi and Adam are who we should be building the team around, technical players with a football brain. The attack that beat Chelsea in the league... Bellamy-Suarez-Maxi...combined in the very type of move that Carroll could never pull off. The lumbering, slow turning, awkward big fella is best suited to a direct, long ball midtable team that bypass midfield...Newcastle.

Hes not a prolific finisher however i couldnt care less about his misses.. even the best can miss.. the criticism is he lacks the ability to play in a team that play a fluid, pass and move, constant interchanging, high tempo style, that all the top teams do. He does not possess the skillset and it affects the players around him as moves break down, the movement is not there, we become static, ponderous, predictable, and dont carve chance after chance. Suarez is at his best when hes next to Maxi or Bellamy, a foil where he can link up..the one-two with Bellamy at Chelsea for instance who then fed Maxi for the goal.

Andy Carroll makes us worse, we sacrfice creating numerous more chances when he is in the team, we sacrifice keeping possession and having constant movement/interchanging of play when he is in the team. He will score the odd goal every now and then... at the cost of us scoring umpteen more, and playing in a fluid manner that successful teams do. Someone mentioned Crouch, Adebayor, Kanu, Ibrahimovic.. these are all highly technical brainy players (Crouch not at the level of the other three) whose best asset is their feet.. they all want to play on the deck (tho even Ibrahimovic was turfed out of Barca as he slowed down the fluidity of their attacking play).

The fee was ludicrous as the entire world knows.. hes a 13-15 million pound player (in this vastly inflated era) and is suited to the very substandard direct long ball team that he left. Bobby Zamora is a more technically sound player and we would never consider him. The fee is the sole reason Kenny is persisting with him, rather than bite the bullet and admit he got it horribly wrong in a last day shopping dash.

by **only me** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:49 pm

Kerry07 wrote:
only me wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:
only me wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:As i said before, Andy Carroll will be a 13 to 14 goal a season player at a direct long ball team. There is no pedigree there, hence there is no "coming good". This is not a player who was highly touted, a player with rave reviews. This is a player who was on the market for 2 million pound sterling in August 2009, 1 season in the Dean Windass championship, and 5 months winning flick ons for a direct long ball midtable team. Michael Ricketts had more pedigree in January 2002 after his spell at Bolton. Andy Carroll is a limited player technically, a player who is alien to a pass and move technical style of play. A player with pedigree Robbie Keane did far more in his 5 months here than the big awkward fella Carroll has done in almost a year and he was turfed out. How long do we persist with a player who makes us worse? Fulham away this season, Fulham away last season.... chalk and cheese.

We paid 35 million for Carroll, he is on 80k per week, on a 5 and a 1/2 year contract...thats 57 million expenditure on Andy Carroll. This season we almost certainly won't get Champions League football (theres 20 million plus lost) due largely to poor team selection of leaving inform players on the bench (Maxi) who also make us fluid, and playing players (Carroll) who have never done it and wreck the fluidity of the team. Thus far thats 77 million, another season of this and the 100 million pound barrier has been breached due to a solitary transfer decision on transfer deadline day of January 2011.

If we were being run by a sheik and could afford to throw money down the toilet then fine, but we arent. This will cost us bigtime. How long can we keep haemorrhaging money? "Give the lad time, yes hes only 23 and has never done it, but give the lad another 2 or 3 years by which time the 200 million cost barrier will be breached, we will be hovering around the 7th place where we are now, playing the same disjointed cr@p when the awkward cumbersome big fella plays... give it time lads, while the top clubs leave us out of sight"

Nicely written but what does it has to do with our team condition? you spend so many words and i still don't get the connection to the topic of the thread which is Andy Carrol.

How many Goals did our Mega Star Suarez netted this season? And the rest of the strikers and chicken Wingers? We have a problem as a TEAM scoring so far ,be it Carrol for the big part but the rest are quick to follow. How many games did Carrol play so far? Did he get a chance to play 5-10 games straight? You are talking of Maxi which is fluid as old man bowl movement (yes he scored twice so what?) ,Is Kuyt more effective? Is Hendo ,Downing and Adam delivering the results so far? So the only difference is the price tag right? You can thank Chelsea for that don't blame Andy.

Let him play straight games till the end of the year at least and then decide if he is worth the bother.

To criticise Suarez is the lowest form of defence. Oh but but... Suarez scored f**k all against Man U in the 3-1 win...yes he created all three goals but he didn't score. Suarez has the 2nd highest amount of passes this season (behind only Rooney) and has created umpteen chances (twice for the awkward big lump vs Fulham). Luis Suarez is the type of player who could go through an entire season without scoring and be man of the match in 90% of them.

There is no question hes frustrated when paired with Carroll...who is the worst possible foil for him. Carroll does not have the skillset to play alongside technical players, his game is in the air, direct, long balls, getting on the end of stuff, bypassing midfield entirely.

If we aspire to be Wimbledon (Bolton under Sam) and finish where we currently sit, then Carroll is our man. If we aspire to play pass and move, retain possession, have fluid interchanging with people moving around, and finish top 4/challenging for league titles, then Carroll is discarded pronto and the error made 12 months ago dealt with.

So if Carrol is replaced we would contend for the CL spot? By stating that you close a blind eye ,close the curtain ,go into the cupboard ,lock the doors and totally ignore our Mediocre Midfield which bears the responsiblity for our lack of attacking power.

you are missing the point, no one thinks that Andy is having a good year ,he is highly not effective and looks pretty lost ,but to say that his presence is what is holding back Adam and Hendo and Downing and Yes Even Suarez is pure BS. I only state that giving him a chance to play full games in a row (If Kuyt and Lucas got it for god sake for years) is a minimal requirment before letting him go. The rest of the MD needs to pick up as well ,Scoring only 17 goals isn't Carrols fault.

And Suarez ,which i'm not trying to belittle ,has been miles from being clinical and effective as he can be.

The team that played against Fulham last season would be contending for Champions League spots yes..and following that performance everyone outside the club saw us being a force this season. We got rave reviews and created umpteen chances, wave after wave of pass and move, turned them inside out. We sacrifice this style of play when we accomodate a player who is alien to this, and does not possess the technique/skillset of those around him. The ilk of Suarez, Bellamy, Maxi and Adam are who we should be building the team around, technical players with a football brain. The attack that beat Chelsea in the league... Bellamy-Suarez-Maxi...combined in the very type of move that Carroll could never pull off. The lumbering, slow turning, awkward big fella is best suited to a direct, long ball midtable team that bypass midfield...Newcastle.

Hes not a prolific finisher however i couldnt care less about his misses.. even the best can miss.. the criticism is he lacks the ability to play in a team that play a fluid, pass and move, constant interchanging, high tempo style, that all the top teams do. He does not possess the skillset and it affects the players around him as moves break down, the movement is not there, we become static, ponderous, predictable, and dont carve chance after chance. Suarez is at his best when hes next to Maxi or Bellamy, a foil where he can link up..the one-two with Bellamy at Chelsea for instance who then fed Maxi for the goal.

Andy Carroll makes us worse, we sacrfice creating numerous more chances when he is in the team, we sacrifice keeping possession and having constant movement/interchanging of play when he is in the team. He will score the odd goal every now and then... at the cost of us scoring umpteen more, and playing in a fluid manner that successful teams do. Someone mentioned Crouch, Adebayor, Kanu, Ibrahimovic.. these are all highly technical brainy players (Crouch not at the level of the other three) whose best asset is their feet.. they all want to play on the deck (tho even Ibrahimovic was turfed out of Barca as he slowed down the fluidity of their attacking play).

The fee was ludicrous as the entire world knows.. hes a 13-15 million pound player (in this vastly inflated era) and is suited to the very substandard direct long ball team that he left. Bobby Zamora is a more technically sound player and we would never consider him. The fee is the sole reason Kenny is persisting with him, rather than bite the bullet and admit he got it horribly wrong in a last day shopping dash.

What you are saying might be true but it wasn't tested in this Liverpool squad as the rest of the players are still not up to expectations! The Barca example is a great one ,Ibra was way out of his depth but in a highly functioning proven excellent midfield ,Our Midfiled is still a long way from being a cohesive efficient unit thus not testing Carrols real skills.

I highly doubt Maxi ability to deliver what you just described ,from what i've seen he is barely noticed and other then the goals has been a non factor ,i'm not sure on which fluid game you are talking off ,we seen this only in spurts and in certain games.

Again ,Carrol might continue to fail but untill i see him getting enough chances both by Kenny and by our Midfield and wingers i will not write him off that quickly. We need Easy goals from Set pieces which he should be able to deliver.

As to the price tag i guess we all can agree on this and it should not be used as a reason to criticize him ,blame Kenny and Commoli for that matter.

by **Kerry07** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:38 am

"until i see him getting enough chances"... you've just echoed my point. Inorder for him to get his 13 to 14 goals a season provided for him on a plate, we have to sacrifice a successful pass and move style that carves out chance after chance with slick passing on the deck, and become a direct long ball, swinging in crosses, predictable, unsuccessful one.

No top team in Europe plays this way. Possession is king, pass and move is the formula, and one which we displayed last season at Fulham, that is the pathway to success. We sacrificed this in the following game vs Spurs when the big lump came back and we looked toothless. We are sacrificing a tried and trusted successful method to accomodate a player alien to it. Andy Carroll is a plan B player... hes the big lump you stick up front for the last 10-15 minutes when you are having an off day trying to carve out chances on the deck, so you start launching it.

Kenny got it wrong with this bizarre signing. Hes not a Kenny Dalglish player which is the one thing above all i cant understand with the signing.

The Maxi comment is nonsensical given the guy averages almost a goal per game this calender year and links up fantastically well with Suarez and Bellamy.

by **shanks** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:59 am

i think we should take a gamble sell him in the jan transfer window hoping that some body will panic buy and hope we can recoup as much as we can for him cut our losses it as not worked out for him or us

it does bring back memories i.e Keane

Also look abroad for a better replacement

by **Octsky** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:26 am

jacdaniel wrote:
Octsky wrote:play Carroll maybe half a season more to prove himself before deciding to sell him away (maybe at a 10m loss) and move on.

It would currently be a much heavier loss than 10M. I reckon we'd only get 10M for him at the moment. And his impact on the team could also cause us to miss CL which is probably about 30M.

we bought Keane for 20m he played for us for 5 mths, n spurs was still willing to take him back for 16m.

so there is always a greater fool, selling Carroll for 25m is no prob if we want to.

the Keane business was the only time i felt that our beloved club was in the wrong. we destroyed his career and lost a good player. I hope that we dont repeat the mistake with Carroll.

by **Kenny Kan** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:46 am

Re - "FEET" I'm not talking about him finding the back of the net every game - he isn't in my view a prolific goalscorer and I wouldn't expect that much from him. He is no Robbie Fowler, he is no John Toshack either, so I wouldn't set the bar that high for him.

His feet look like there're in roller skates, between him falling over most of the time and his lack of control and ability to lay it off there doesn't leave much room or time to show us that he hasn't got the ability of a donkey. If he could even control the ball, stand on his feet and use his upper body strength more then I'd be pleased with that. On top of that, when the ball has been delivered into the box (whipped in), Andy is usually caught flat footed without an IOTA of anticipation in him. He's been more useful to us at defending set-pieces this season, I maybe wrong but I don't think the lad is mentally up for the challenge here. On top of that our whole team's approach changes when he's playing and the fluidity lost - at this moment in time there are more things going against him on the pitch than for, his movement too isn't the best - he's usually a sitting duck for oppo center halves. He should be used as a sub, an impact sub until this perceived "confidence" comes back.

I'm honestly struggling to see how Andy can help the team at the moment. Perhaps the coaching staff could start by getting him and Suarez some sort of understanding. Linking up together on the training field against Johnson, Skertel, Agger, Enrique and Spearing. Changing their movement together and working on something, otherwise I'm at a loss.

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