Liverpool FC Forum

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:30 am

Kerry07 wrote:
yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:The main problem among the fanbase is the reluctance to hammer Kenny over this shocking transfer.... its Kenny.. the King... our greatest ever player... many who witnessed what he did for the club cant bring themselves to be honest on this. Its the emperors new clothes syndrome...every man and his dog knows Carroll is a terrible player, zero pedigree.. but... its a Kenny Dalglish signing so the fans bite their lip. Imagine Hodgson had signed this donkey...the guy would be getting slaughtered.

After 5 years of Keegan building Newcastle between 1992 to Januray 1997, Kenny then came in put the nail in their progress when he spent big (at the time) in signing 3 strilkers: Andreas Andersson, Jon Dahl Tomasson, Stephane Guivarc'h.. in his 18 months at the club (quite a drop from Ferdinand, Beardsley and co.). I mention this as many of our fans have rose tinited glasses when it comes to the King. His manmanagement is exceptional, his love for the club unquestionable, and he has signed quality in Suarez, Enrique.. and possibly Adam. But the 70 million forked out for Carroll... and to a lesser extent Downing and Henderson... has seen us worse this season than the games we impressed toward the end of last season (Fulham especially). Contrast Spurs to us.. they spent NOTHING on Adebayor.. a loanee who's talent dwarfs Carroll.. they look slick/fluid when they attack. They win their game in hand (vs Everton) they go 10 points clear of us and theres no catching that. Over 100 million spent... 70 million of that wasted...and this season is almost a write off. Kenny will get another season after this one but if he doesnt rectify this transfer blunder (and that means shifting Carroll out pronto) then his tenure will end with us the same as it did with Newcastle.

what a load of baloney, why just pick out kenny`s record at newcastle? why not mention him signing alan shearer when no one had hardly heard of him or why not mention his first stint at the club where he was literally seconds away from winning 4 titles in 5 seasons not to mention appearing in 3 F.A cup finals (when they meant something) with a side that played some of the best football ever seen in english football.
even at newcastle he took them to their first F.A cup final in a generation, finished second in the league and they even beat barcelona in the champions league.
re carroll who`s to say he wont come good? john toshack was signed for quite a big fee and he started out quite slow but he developed into one half of the striking partnership that took this club to the top of english and european football.

Alan Shearer was a top top striker at Southampton. In 1991/92 he was regarded as the heir apparent to Lineker for England. Yes that was a top sigining by Kenny.... but the point im making is that Kenny can make major blunders...which might shock a few of our hardened Kenny worshippers.

You have just highlighted the problem i mentioned by bringing up what he did at Liverpool over 20 years ago... the rose tinted specs ensure Kenny gets a smooth ride not afforded to almost anyone else. He could sign that Everton carthorse Tony Hibbert and the rose tinted brigade would be thinking its a shrewd bit of business by Kenny. When you spend 35 million pound on a forward with no pedigree, you have left yourself open to ridicule. I'm fortunate in that ive been supporting Liverpool since 1991 so im not afflicted by the red tinted bias that many of our fanbase has and so can give a viewpoint that is honest.

Andy Carroll has never done it, Andy Carroll has shown nothing that he will ever do it... the gif of a horse falling over a ball is the best highlight reel i've seen that sums up Andy Carroll.

1991? unless your from liverpool you probably wouldnt even be supporting the club if it wasnt for dalglish.
dalglish took over a team that had been in a tailspin for nearly 2 years and transformed them during the second half of last season, before dalglish arrived we had won 2 away games in a calender year.
from when he took over to the end of the season our form was as good as anyone`s plus he had to deal with the bombshell that our star center forward wanted to f##k off.
no one could have done more last season.
this season we have stuttered at home but our away form is quite good and we are still only 4 points off a champions league place with over half the season still to play and in the semi finals of the league cup.
i`m not sure what you want out of him tbh

by **Kerry07** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:52 am

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:
yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:The main problem among the fanbase is the reluctance to hammer Kenny over this shocking transfer.... its Kenny.. the King... our greatest ever player... many who witnessed what he did for the club cant bring themselves to be honest on this. Its the emperors new clothes syndrome...every man and his dog knows Carroll is a terrible player, zero pedigree.. but... its a Kenny Dalglish signing so the fans bite their lip. Imagine Hodgson had signed this donkey...the guy would be getting slaughtered.

After 5 years of Keegan building Newcastle between 1992 to Januray 1997, Kenny then came in put the nail in their progress when he spent big (at the time) in signing 3 strilkers: Andreas Andersson, Jon Dahl Tomasson, Stephane Guivarc'h.. in his 18 months at the club (quite a drop from Ferdinand, Beardsley and co.). I mention this as many of our fans have rose tinited glasses when it comes to the King. His manmanagement is exceptional, his love for the club unquestionable, and he has signed quality in Suarez, Enrique.. and possibly Adam. But the 70 million forked out for Carroll... and to a lesser extent Downing and Henderson... has seen us worse this season than the games we impressed toward the end of last season (Fulham especially). Contrast Spurs to us.. they spent NOTHING on Adebayor.. a loanee who's talent dwarfs Carroll.. they look slick/fluid when they attack. They win their game in hand (vs Everton) they go 10 points clear of us and theres no catching that. Over 100 million spent... 70 million of that wasted...and this season is almost a write off. Kenny will get another season after this one but if he doesnt rectify this transfer blunder (and that means shifting Carroll out pronto) then his tenure will end with us the same as it did with Newcastle.

what a load of baloney, why just pick out kenny`s record at newcastle? why not mention him signing alan shearer when no one had hardly heard of him or why not mention his first stint at the club where he was literally seconds away from winning 4 titles in 5 seasons not to mention appearing in 3 F.A cup finals (when they meant something) with a side that played some of the best football ever seen in english football.
even at newcastle he took them to their first F.A cup final in a generation, finished second in the league and they even beat barcelona in the champions league.
re carroll who`s to say he wont come good? john toshack was signed for quite a big fee and he started out quite slow but he developed into one half of the striking partnership that took this club to the top of english and european football.

Alan Shearer was a top top striker at Southampton. In 1991/92 he was regarded as the heir apparent to Lineker for England. Yes that was a top sigining by Kenny.... but the point im making is that Kenny can make major blunders...which might shock a few of our hardened Kenny worshippers.

You have just highlighted the problem i mentioned by bringing up what he did at Liverpool over 20 years ago... the rose tinted specs ensure Kenny gets a smooth ride not afforded to almost anyone else. He could sign that Everton carthorse Tony Hibbert and the rose tinted brigade would be thinking its a shrewd bit of business by Kenny. When you spend 35 million pound on a forward with no pedigree, you have left yourself open to ridicule. I'm fortunate in that ive been supporting Liverpool since 1991 so im not afflicted by the red tinted bias that many of our fanbase has and so can give a viewpoint that is honest.

Andy Carroll has never done it, Andy Carroll has shown nothing that he will ever do it... the gif of a horse falling over a ball is the best highlight reel i've seen that sums up Andy Carroll.

1991? unless your from liverpool you probably wouldnt even be supporting the club if it wasnt for dalglish.
dalglish took over a team that had been in a tailspin for nearly 2 years and transformed them during the second half of last season, before dalglish arrived we had won 2 away games in a calender year.
from when he took over to the end of the season our form was as good as anyone`s plus he had to deal with the bombshell that our star center forward wanted to f##k off.
no one could have done more last season.
this season we have stuttered at home but our away form is quite good and we are still only 4 points off a champions league place with over half the season still to play and in the semi finals of the league cup.
i`m not sure what you want out of him tbh

Of course i dont want Kenny out (never once suggested it)... i'm focusing on the shambles that is Andy Carroll... thats who i want out.

We are better when he doesnt play... i don't rate the guy, i have never rated the guy.. i cringed when i saw the yellow ticker going across the screen on Sky Sports News that we had bid 30 million for him...the second bid sickens me. For me he is not a 10 million pound player (wont type the scandalous fee we forked out again as its absurd).. he ruins everything we do. I was at the Spurs game last season (lower main stand) which wasnt long after the excellent performance against Fulham with Suarez, Maxi, Kuyt, Meirelies. Andy Carroll ruined everything we did that day, and everything we have done since. Imagine him at Barcelona...upfront... he would destroy that fluid attack and ruin everything Barca do. The interchanging, the one twos, the slick, fluid play...with Carroll upfront all that goes out the window. That breakaway goal we got at Chelsea when Adam stole the ball.. then Bellamy played the one-two with Suarez and played in Maxi. Technical players produce technical play... Carroll kills this. Even the very very rare moments that he has contributed... against West Brom his touch was shocking.. beautiful ball from Suarez that puts Carroll clear.. and then the donkey shins it with his first touch leaving himself stretching to poke it in.

Everyone at Newcastle was dumbfounded at this signing, Alan Shearer, the technical staff.. no one rates the guy. Bobby Zamora features in the England squad ahead of him. Kenny alone has forked out 35 million pounds on a player with no pedigree. Andy Carroll will be a 13 to 14 goal a season player with a lower team that play long ball...he has no place in a top team that aspire to play slick/fluid technical football.

by **mart** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:04 am

Kopite-Jud wrote:Yes signing Andy was a rush of blood or a panic buy if you like, BUT Kenny HAD to react after we lost Torres

I dont agree at all.
Carroll was injured when we bought him, and we knew he would hardly play for the 2nd half of the season. We already knew we would not be able to reach top 4 to get a CL spot. Why then waste a huge amount on a completely unproven and injured player that we knew would miss a large part of the 2nd half of the season?

by **Kerry07** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:24 am

mart wrote:
Kopite-Jud wrote:Yes signing Andy was a rush of blood or a panic buy if you like, BUT Kenny HAD to react after we lost Torres

I dont agree at all.
Carroll was injured when we bought him, and we knew he would hardly play for the 2nd half of the season. We already knew we would not be able to reach top 4 to get a CL spot. Why then waste a huge amount on a completely unproven and injured player that we knew would miss a large part of the 2nd half of the season?

Agreed... it was nonsensical no matter how you look at it.

We were out of the European spots, we were chasing nothing. We had a 50 million pound warchest (to add to the summer kitty) and could have had 3 months of scouring Europe for the best. At the time i had two players in my mind.. Javi Martinez, and Fernando Llorente. Somone mentioned Toshack previously..well theres the spanish version.. a tall, technical, class act.

I have held this belief.. and nothing will change my mind on this.. that the sole reason Kenny forked out 35 million on Carroll was self preservation. Kenny had 5 months to impress, to get the job permanently...he wasnt thinking *huge kitty in the summer for someone else to spend*.. he was thinking i have 5 months to impress and we are short of strikers.. and in doing so he threw everything at a striker with no pedigree. Ironically, what transpired is that 35 million pound signing contributed zilch to him getting the job full time.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:31 am

I cant take anyone seriously who says KK should go if we dont finish in the top 4
And bring in who? And start all over again, and if that manager doesnt get in the top 4 sack him, and on and on like Fu*king chelsea?
Behave yourselves. We didnt win because we lack the clinical finishing that the teams above us have. We are having numerous attempts and chances but not converting them.
I think KK got it absolutely wrong by playing Carroll instead of Maxi. Carroll should be used as an impact sub at the end of games. Maxi played brilliantly with Bellamy last week and deserved his place. Saying that Johnson shouldnt have let Murphy get his shot off and Reina should have done better with it.
If KK is half the man I think he is he should hold his hands up and learn from his mistakes. I will start worrying if he keeps repeating these fu'ck ups.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:32 am

mart wrote:
Kopite-Jud wrote:Yes signing Andy was a rush of blood or a panic buy if you like, BUT Kenny HAD to react after we lost Torres

I dont agree at all.
Carroll was injured when we bought him, and we knew he would hardly play for the 2nd half of the season. We already knew we would not be able to reach top 4 to get a CL spot. Why then waste a huge amount on a completely unproven and injured player that we knew would miss a large part of the 2nd half of the season?

I know he was injured when we got him but i still think it was a panic buy.

He had 24 hours to find a striker after Torres got off

So took a HUGE gable with Carroll

I think he thought he needed to react but unfortunatly its proving to be a awful desicion.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:38 am

Kerry07 wrote:
mart wrote:
Kopite-Jud wrote:Yes signing Andy was a rush of blood or a panic buy if you like, BUT Kenny HAD to react after we lost Torres

I dont agree at all.
Carroll was injured when we bought him, and we knew he would hardly play for the 2nd half of the season. We already knew we would not be able to reach top 4 to get a CL spot. Why then waste a huge amount on a completely unproven and injured player that we knew would miss a large part of the 2nd half of the season?

Agreed... it was nonsensical no matter how you look at it.

We were out of the European spots, we were chasing nothing. We had a 50 million pound warchest (to add to the summer kitty) and could have had 3 months of scouring Europe for the best. At the time i had two players in my mind.. Javi Martinez, and Fernando Llorente. Somone mentioned Toshack previously..well theres the spanish version.. a tall, technical, class act.

I have held this belief.. and nothing will change my mind on this.. that the sole reason Kenny forked out 35 million on Carroll was self preservation. Kenny had 5 months to impress, to get the job permanently...he wasnt thinking *huge kitty in the summer for someone else to spend*.. he was thinking i have 5 months to impress and we are short of strikers.. and in doing so he threw everything at a striker with no pedigree. Ironically, what transpired is that 35 million pound signing contributed zilch to him getting the job full time.

I don't think the self preservation argument is correct, Carroll was bought injured and was likely to be out for 5-6 weeks and therefore not going to have much effect on the season. IMHO Kenny wanted him, and the new owners, after seeing the pressure we put on ol' hicks n Gillette, panicked and decided that they had to replace the top player at the club, and a fans favourite. I agree it was a huge error to buy Carroll at that time, and in the Summer we could have had good look around. I can't believe the brain trust at Anfield didn't figure out that the only rival for Carrolls services would have been Spurs and that they would never pay close to 25m let alone 35.

by **Kerry07** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:47 am

Thommo's perm wrote:I cant take anyone seriously who says KK should go if we dont finish in the top 4
And bring in who? And start all over again, and if that manager doesnt get in the top 4 sack him, and on and on like Fu*king chelsea?
Behave yourselves. We didnt win because we lack the clinical finishing that the teams above us have. We are having numerous attempts and chances but not converting them.
I think KK got it absolutely wrong by playing Carroll instead of Maxi. Carroll should be used as an impact sub at the end of games. Maxi played brilliantly with Bellamy last week and deserved his place. Saying that Johnson shouldnt have let Murphy get his shot off and Reina should have done better with it.
If KK is half the man I think he is he should hold his hands up and learn from his mistakes. I will start worrying if he keeps repeating these fu'ck ups.

No one is suggesting that... i concur with everything u stated btw.

As the camera panned on Maxi.. and then Kenny... everyone thought the same thing. What on earth does Maxi have to do to start?, and what on earth has Carroll done to start?

I'm wondering, is there pressure on Kenny to play Carroll?... a player with a 35 million pound fee over his head...to have that sitting in the stands doesnt look good for anyone at the club. There is no other reason for him playing.

The next move that Kenny takes on Carroll will be crucial... do you compound the signing error by persisting with a player who makes us worse... or bite the bullet and take decisive action transfer wise. Its an easy decision.. as unlike the Torres situation for example (waiting for a player with pedigree to come good) Carroll has no pedigree to come good.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:47 am

Carroll has to be dropped if we want to challenge for the top 4
He is not firing or even assisting at the moment. He is an impact sub who should be used at the end for best effect until he realises what he has to do to make the team better. I know how much he cost and that he shouldnt have to be shown what to do, but unfortunately thats the way it is and we have to deal with it.

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:27 am

Kenny Kan wrote:Andy at Fulham

by **alwayslfc** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:26 am

Thommo's perm wrote:I cant take anyone seriously who says KK should go if we dont finish in the top 4
And bring in who? And start all over again, and if that manager doesnt get in the top 4 sack him, and on and on like Fu*king chelsea?
Behave yourselves. We didnt win because we lack the clinical finishing that the teams above us have. We are having numerous attempts and chances but not converting them.
I think KK got it absolutely wrong by playing Carroll instead of Maxi. Carroll should be used as an impact sub at the end of games. Maxi played brilliantly with Bellamy last week and deserved his place. Saying that Johnson shouldnt have let Murphy get his shot off and Reina should have done better with it.
If KK is half the man I think he is he should hold his hands up and learn from his mistakes. I will start worrying if he keeps repeating these fu'ck ups.

[quote]

Spot on there. I still believe KK is the best man to manage LFC at the moment. I hope Henry wouldn't sack him if we fail to finish in top 4 unless Liverpool perform like under the Hodgson era. Instead Henry should let Kenny finish his 3 year contract and then see what happens, otherwise we'll be like Chelsea or RMadrid where sacking of managers is almost an annual event.

Carroll is looking more like the 'Hodgson' of Liverpool football players ie does well at mid table/championship clubs but not a big club like Liverpool. And if he doesn't improve by Christmas, he should go the way of Hodgson in January.

We got 33 pts from 18 games last season under Kenny. Now 14 games 23 points and we seem to be going backwards. I'd put all that down to our inability to put away our chances plus frequent hitting the bl**dy woodwork and poor refereeing. The last 2 we cannot do anything about. But the first one is down to our front men lacking the killer instinct to bang in the goals when the opportunity arises. Suarez doesn't have it, IMO he should play as an attacking midfielder providing the assists because of his dazzling ball controls but his finishing is inconsistent. That's why, I hope to see us signing a quality striker in Jan. regardless of his age, because this is a department where reinforcement is needed.

by **damjan193** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:40 am

I am sure that there is pressure on Kenny to play Carroll, but we're doing this all wrong. We all know that Kenny, Clarke, Commoli and the rest believe in Carroll and that they're trying to help him get to his true form and unleash his full potential and in order to do that, we need to give him more game time. But starting him when he doesn't deserve it is bad for him and obviously for us as well. He needs to be placed on the bench so players who deserve to play and who could actually help us to score goals can step in, like Rodriguez at the moment, and if we want to give him game time we can always use him as an impact sub, in which he's proved to be very useful at.

So we play the players that deserve to play, we use Carroll as a sub so he can get game time and since he's good as an impact sub he can also even be useful and have impact on the game. Everybody wins.

I'd suggest the same with Henderson, but at the moment we don't really have anyone else to play instead of him.

by **jacdaniel** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:42 am

After last night I think its clear that Carroll shouldn't be starting any game anytime soon. That GIF of the horse tripping over the ball is sadly accurate. He should only be used as an impact sub if we are desperate for a goal. Now some people will say that he needs games to come good but at what cost?

Us missing out on CL football for another season? Kenny losing his job? The club is more important than Andy Carroll.

We need to play to our strengths. That seems to be when Maxi, Bellamy and Suarez are all in the same side. Kenny is really close to finding his best 11 but he needs to stop trying so hard to include Carroll.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:52 am

I'm guessing it's easier to point the blame at Carroll when last night he was actually ok , he was showin for the ball to feet, controlling it and passing it off , dragging their cb's around , winning a lot of knock ons and actually getting his shot on target as opposed to bit Suarez and Bellamy who had shockers.

And I would of thought people by now would of realised there is no such thing as a best 11 ?! How many seasons now have teams means rotating and restin players ? Its a squad game and clubs looking for a best 20 now not 11 .

by **lakes10** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:04 pm

ANDY CARROLL = better with his feet than with his head.
stop putting in high balls for him.

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