Liverpool FC Forum

by **jimmy brighton** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:14 pm

tubby wrote:Under twit and we would have given anything to be able to spend this kind of money. Now we are people are questioning it. Give me strength.

Brilliantly put.

by **tubby** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:28 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
ethanr wrote:We need a LB and a CB and that's quite obvious the more we watch.

Agreed .

If Agger stays fit we can probably get by without a new CB this season but the LB position is a real weakness. We've got lads that can play there but no nailed on starter.

I gave a shout for Leighton Baines a while back , pity that while we're tossing money about like confetti we couldn't get some one of that calibre, hopefully it's something the club are still working on.

A lot of talk of us agreeing a fee for Aly Cissokho mate. He'd be a good buy too. Baines is good but he's 27, plus the bitters wouldn't sell him unless we offered silly money for him. If he was younger like say 22/23 I could see Kenny and Comolli going all out for him but given his age it probably doens't make any sense in the long run in terms of resale value.

by **aCe'** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:00 pm

On downing: So what he was voted player of the season ? What does that actually say about the quality of the guy ?
As far as I'm concerned, its a bit hypocritical citing it as a reason why he'd make a good signing especially given the fact that OUR player of the season (Lucas) isnt even amongst the best 7 or 8 players in the squad. Add to that the fact that many of whom are saying he is 'Villa player of the season' dismissed Meireles as surplus to our needs despite him winning the league's fans Player of the Season !

On Adam: I still maintain that we didnt/dont need him. That said, he might bring something different to the side, and the fact that we didnt pay 20mill for him means that he is under considerably less pressure to go out there and justify a price tag... If he doesnt perform, someone else steps in ( we ave plenty of backup for his position) and we sell at a small loss. Nowhere near the case for Downing. If he doesnt step up and play to the level his price tag suggests, then we'll probably bench him and ultimately sell him at a considerable loss. Not only that, we also lack a strong backup option in case it doesnt work out as planned for Downing, thus increasing the pressure on the MANAGEMENT getting it right (regardless of the price).

On our spending, which according to my math is somewhere around the 50mill mark for summer and 100mill mark in the last 7months , I think many pundits who say they are surprised we spent as much without signing any big names have a point. While Im pretty sure that Downing and Adam will help improve the squad overall, I have no confidence in them ever improving to the degree that they would be good enough for a title winning side. If we are planning on sneaking a top4 spot this year and then going out next year and spending another 20-30 mill on a top class left winger then it might work but I fail to see the logic in it.

On the ManUtd deals which are mentioned on pretty much every thread, to my knowledge they signed De Gea, Jones and Ashley Young... and are chasing W.Sneijder ? Well, I have one simple question... What are the areas in their squad that they needed to improve ?

My answer would have been : GK, CM and maybe a wide player to allow Giggs to play a more central role given his age. They went out and got a top goalkeeping talent who will probably command the spot for many years to come. They got a very highly rated winger in Young who has much much better statistics (goals, assists) than Downing for cheaper. And they got the top young talent in the country as backup for their already formidable CB partnership...

Compare that to what we did and then come back and explain to me how 'we absolutely outdid them in the transfer market' or how 'they overspent yet no one talks about them'

Im sorry but if Henderson is worth 20mill then how is De Gea (who is younger, more established and will be a consistent starter) not worth 18mill ?
If Downing is 18.5-20 mill, how is A.Young who is a much better player not to mention a more effective one, not worth 17mill ?
And Jones, we offered him more than what ManUtd payed... enough said...

by **aCe'** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:06 pm

tubby wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
ethanr wrote:We need a LB and a CB and that's quite obvious the more we watch.

Agreed .

If Agger stays fit we can probably get by without a new CB this season but the LB position is a real weakness. We've got lads that can play there but no nailed on starter.

I gave a shout for Leighton Baines a while back , pity that while we're tossing money about like confetti we couldn't get some one of that calibre, hopefully it's something the club are still working on.

A lot of talk of us agreeing a fee for Aly Cissokho mate. He'd be a good buy too. Baines is good but he's 27, plus the bitters wouldn't sell him unless we offered silly money for him. If he was younger like say 22/23 I could see Kenny and Comolli going all out for him but given his age it probably doens't make any sense in the long run in terms of resale value.

Resale value or not, Baines would have been one hell of a signing and would have truly improved our starting 11 significantly...

If the Aly Cissokho rumours are true then he'd improve our starting 11 by quite a margin too. I rate both highly but given their respective suggested prices I think Cissokho represents better value for money at this point...

Given how things have gone so far though, I dont expect either to sign.... We're more likely to see Bridge for 15 mill than Cissokho for 10 imo..

by **Benny The Noon** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:19 pm

1. Young was cheaper because of one reason only - his contract had one year to run - had he got two years left then the price would be better .

2. Downing at Villa - forget your stats - the fans who saw him week in week out recognised that Downing was the better player last season - that says a lot .

3. Mancs - De Gea - he has proved nothing yet and he will be under more pressure than anyone else this season and it would not surprise me to see him make a number of crucial mistakes . As for wide players to enable Giggs to move inside - he hasn't played wide for years on a regular basis due to Nani and Valencia and Park being at the club . He has had to play central due to their lack of options there . Snejder is not going to go there - they know he doesn't want to leave Italy and they are certainly not going to pay his wages he gets at Inter .

I could ask you who would you of preffered we got but I know what the answer would be - a list of foriegn " hyped stars " who have proven nothing and would be a massive risk and prob mote expensive than what we have bought .

The management look like they want to build a team of solid experienced players as well as securing players for the future . Kennys team in the past have always contained decent team players who do the job .

Man City have spent millions upon millions on overhyped foreign stars yet there best player ( who sits on their bench ) is a young English lad .

We will look to buy players now who fit into the team no matter where they played before hand .

If people want us to be looking at foriegn media "hyped" players then be prepared to be disappointed . We are moving back to the way we used to be , the way that made our team and manager successful .

We have been down the foriegn route and it didnt work - time for a new approach

by **ethanr** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:25 pm

Alright ace.. No offense man but you just gave A LOT of opinions there in a matter-of-factly sort of way.

Lucas won player of the season for the work he put in. Last season throughout the season he was one of our better players overall because he was consistent. He stepped up and played really, really well at times. He was a player we always expected to start because he was playing so much better than everybody else. Good players don't always play their best, so it's hard to justify that claim when we had a season like we did last season. Fan's player of the year is voted at the dumbest time in the middle of the season... Right when Meireles had scored 5 goals in 6 games including a wonder-striker against Wolves and a very important goal against Chelsea. The voting worked in his favor.

With Adam, what you say is true concerning the pressure, but I've personally never been worried about it.

You have also claimed we haven't signed any big names. Well I highly disagree with that. For one, Carroll was lighting up the premier league with his power and ability and he became a big name. Is Gareth Bale a big name? Yes he is. I'm not saying he's as good or like Gareth Bale, but it was a very similar circumstance where he did very, very well for the first half of the season out of nowhere. Luis Suarez was a big signing. A couple years ago he was touted as the best young player in the world after an incredible season. He had a great world cup as well and people really thought he was a good player, and he is. Downing is no Ronaldo, but once again as people continually agree on here, we aren't buying the expensive players that are considered the best, we're buying players who will be productive for our squad. Madrid have tried to buy all the best players, but they don't play as a single unit because their styles clash. We are trying to go after our playing style, not trying to buy the most talented players.

On manure's signings... Nobody has said the Dea Gea signing was bad. Is it risky? a little bit, tho I'm not sure keepers are much affected by the change in leagues. Not everybody agrees that Ashley Young is better than Downing. Their stats are very similar, but Young took all their pks. I watched Villa a lot because my friend is a fan and because I thought Young would be a Liverpool player this season. Young missed a lot of pks, he made a lot of mistakes and the media was going to his head. Also I don't see how they needed a winger considering fergi rates Valencia so high and Nani were one of their best players last season. A CM? yes, but they haven't bought Sneijder and fergie has said they aren't bidding for him.

You can't compare Hendo and Dea Gea because they play different positions and manure brought Dea Gea in as a starter and replacement for a player clearly better then him while Hendo was brought in more likely for the future. Like I said earlier, I think Downing was the better player last year and he will be able to do more for our club then Young will for manure. And the Jones things was beyond speculation... BEYOND speculation... Just like how Jones "failed his medical" when he never did and then we "put in a higher bid" this was never confirmed by anybody other than Twitter.. I wasn't aware Twitter has become fact on here tho...

Not trying to be disrespectful or be an @ss hole, but too many people are just complaining about what has happened before the players have a chance to prove themselves. We hate manure and it's nice to be able to sit here and talk about how we've done better, it's just being optomistic, and I do think we have done better than manure.

by **aCe'** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:58 pm

Alright lets try to sum it up here:

Benny:

You think Downing is a better player than Young despite the stats showing that Young scored more and had more assists every single year since both player broke into the scene - fair enough despite the fact that most A.Villa supporters I know think Young is the better player

You think De Gea is going to fck up - we'll have to wait and see about that

You think ManCity's best player is A.Johnson ?

Sums it up and dont know how its relevant but okay

And finally, you think we shouldnt be signing foreign players because we've already tried that and it didnt work - what you base that on, I still dont know but okay

Ethan :

The Lucas thing wasnt meant to be a criticism of the guy, just to show that someone being voted player of the season doesnt mean they are the best player at the club....

On Carroll and Suarez, I wasnt referring to either of those signings.. Suarez was an excellent signing. The best we've made to date since Torres imo and funny enough he's one of those "foriegn media "hyped" players" who disappoint and dont fit into squads like British players do. Carroll despite the hefty tag is an understandable purchase given his scoring record and the situation we were in at the time...

The rest of the stuff I dont really get....

A.Young and Downing, their stats are not even comparable... In the last 5 years (all in the Premier League for Watford, Boro, and Villa):

Downing : 172 games - 20 goals - 23 assists

Young : 165 games - 30 goals - 44 assists

So in less games, Young has managed to score/assists 31 goals more than Downing, who is a year older than him

I also dont get you point regarding Henderson and De Gea... So one is a starter and younger than the other yet cheaper... but you cant compare or say one is a better deal than the other because

And Again... "We hate manure and it's nice to be able to sit here and talk about how we've done better, it's just being optomistic, and I do think we have done better than manure." .... Just brilliantly sums it up

Its a Liverpool forum... Everyone here supports the club, ffs a little objectivity wouldnt kill you ! I'd understand throwing such arguments when talking to supporters of other clubs or whatever but makes no sense doing it down here...

by **Benny The Noon** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:09 pm

I don't actually think Downing is better than Young - i think Downing is a better fit for our needs and our team - yes you can keep putting stats up but how many set pieces did young take including Pens ? I'm going to guess from open play they will be on about the same level - stats never tell the whole story .

In reference to Man City I wasn't including Tevez who is leaving - but Johnson is their best player apart from him IMO .

I base the fact we haven't won a trophy for 5 years , we haven't won the league in how many years now ? From 99 the majority of our signings have been foreign and in those years how many realistic title challenges have we had ? 1 or 2 maybe .

All your recommendations for players to sign are the same - foriegn "media hyped football manager specials" who would be a massive risk and some still very unproven and would command bigger transfers fees

Mata is the most popular one - would cost more but would also be a far bigger risk .

by **ethanr** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:11 am

aCe' wrote:The rest of the stuff I dont really get....

A.Young and Downing, their stats are not even comparable... In the last 5 years (all in the Premier League for Watford, Boro, and Villa):

Downing : 172 games - 20 goals - 23 assists

Young : 165 games - 30 goals - 44 assists

So in less games, Young has managed to score/assists 31 goals more than Downing, who is a year older than him

I also dont get you point regarding Henderson and De Gea... So one is a starter and younger than the other yet cheaper... but you cant compare or say one is a better deal than the other because

And Again... "We hate manure and it's nice to be able to sit here and talk about how we've done better, it's just being optomistic, and I do think we have done better than manure." .... Just brilliantly sums it up

Its a Liverpool forum... Everyone here supports the club, ffs a little objectivity wouldnt kill you ! I'd understand throwing such arguments when talking to supporters of other clubs or whatever but makes no sense doing it down here...

Ace I completely understand what you're saying, but at the same time I don't think it's fair to compare the 2 players in the last 5 seasons compared to one season. Like some players show, it only takes one season to show your real talent. You could compare torres' last 5 years to some other strikers and his £50 million price tag almost seems justifiable, but in reality last season he was garbage, and now you really can't tell how good he is.

Downing and Young have played for different clubs as well, Aston Villa is usually a decent side and Middlesborough were bad enough to get relegated, so it is a little bit hard to give a fair comparison.

Just comparing last season Downing had 7 goals and 7 assists compared to Young's 7 goals and 10 assists, but we have to keep in mind a couple things:

Downing was often played out of position on the right instead of the left

Ashley Young was played as a striker many times, clearly making it easier for him to get better stats

Ashley Young took Villa's pens and 4 of his goals last season were pens. I'm not saying taking a pen is an automatic goal, but I know I saw him miss 2 last season, although I think he missed 3, which isn't a good pen scoring ratio. So without his pens he only scored 3 goals.

I know it's not exactly fair to sit here and say you can only compare stats from the last season, but when looking at the 2 players last season I think they were both given their fair share of playing time and opportunities, and really played at a consistent level.

Concerning the price tag alone, Downing had 2 years and Young had 1. When you only have 1 year left on your contract you go for much cheaper. I'm shocked manure ended up paying that much to be honest.

I also feel we really, really needed Downing for his abilities while manure will not so much be filling a position they needed, as they have 2 talented wingers already.

Considering Hendo and De Gea- I don't think it's fair to compare the pricing of a goal keeper with a young English talent bought for the future like Hendo. For one, we have all agreed that young English players will automatically cost more. Secondly, keepers prices are very, very spontaneous. You cannot track them. Man City bought Shay Given from Newcastle for £6 million, and at the time I think most will agree he was playing well enough to be considered one of the top 3 keepers in the league. De Gea going for 3 times the price could be way over-paid. Reina's price tag was being thrown about at £20 million, and I also think most will agree De Gea is nowhere near Reina's talent. Sure, he's young so that will raise his price a bit, but like I said the prices are just too inconsistent and sparse to come up with a real expected price tag. Keeper transfers are a whole different thing because they can play 5 or so years longer at their best than the average field player. Not only that but really talented keepers very rarely switch clubs, so it's hard to get an accurate number that would be thought as fair.

by **Octsky** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:42 am

aCe' wrote:Im sorry but if Henderson is worth 20mill then how is De Gea (who is younger, more established and will be a consistent starter) not worth 18mill ?
If Downing is 18.5-20 mill, how is A.Young who is a much better player not to mention a more effective one, not worth 17mill ?
And Jones, we offered him more than what ManUtd payed... enough said...

Gk peak at 27-28 yrs old, De Gea is 22 ?
old alex has a bad record at signing gk, he only managed to nail down the position when he signed 37 yr old VDS.

A.Young? didnt they have Nani, Valencia, Giggs and Park?
u can play 3 CM or even 4 CM in a match but can you play 4 wingers in a match ?

didnt watch Jones played so cant comment but it will be v hard for him to dislodge the partnership of Rio and Vidic. Smalling was signed for 8m and i think he didnt even played enough to qualify for a league medal.

i have no complains of us signing British on a slight premium as last time i check we had a core of British players when we ruled world football in the 70's and 80's.

by **Octsky** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:47 am

i dont know what's the argument abt Young and Downing?
one play right another play left.
we have Hendo and Kuyt who can play right and a big fat zero who can play left until Downing.

so why compare both players when there is no chance we will sign Young when we signed Hendo, and we need Downing.

by **ethanr** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:02 am

Octsky wrote:i dont know what's the argument abt Young and Downing?
one play right another play left.
we have Hendo and Kuyt who can play right and a big fat zero who can play left until Downing.

so why compare both players when there is no chance we will sign Young when we signed Hendo, and we need Downing.

Actually they are both naturally left wingers. The difference is that Downing can also play on the right, so Young played on the left because he's not very good on the right and Downing mainly played on the right.

by **crazyhorse** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:37 am

I really do not know how people are saying that Young is a better player than Downing. Personally I do think they are very similar and Youngs been upped in everyones estimation through his performances for England last season.

For me personally I think we got the right one. Downing is far more of a conventional winger and will hug the left touchline. He will also be able to swing corners ect in from the right with Adam.

I also like his attitude. He has been stalled by injury in the first yeays of his career, and will be a late bloomer. He will improve with us and I think we will see the potential he showed when he was at Middlesborough. What he will give is a consistant 7 out of ten every game and will go above this regulary. Young is too streaky and just the kind of player we dont need.

As fot the money we have spent. Henderson, Adam, Downing are all logical purchases. Carroll despite the massive fee is not bad business over a five year contract. And we also recouped 35 million for Torres making a handy profit.

I think we may now recoup a further 10 million or so on getting shut of the Poulsens, Koncheskys and ivanovic's so the figures will look a little better.

The spending has been necessary and vital to improve the squad. Of the other top sides only Manure has spent anything of note so far so we are looking good for the year ahead. I expect Chelsea and City to spend but possibly not as much as we think- we know Modric will go to Chelsea but i am unsure who City are linked to.

There are now only two or three positions where we need obvious cover or improvement. I am sure that this will be addressed in the coming days.

by **Basil** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:39 am

I agree that Downing is a much better fit to our needs than Young, Downing is a conventional wide man with a good left foot, he has a good attitude and plays to a consistently high level, he will be a regular starter for us.

Young can be brilliant but likes to come inside and can play a more central role, perhaps this is why the scum bought him. In my opinion his attitude is not as good Downings, especially if he hisn't playing regularly.

by **Fowler_E7** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:47 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:Man City have spent millions upon millions on overhyped foreign stars yet there best player ( who sits on their bench ) is a young English lad .

Tevez and Toure are not younge English lads

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