Why cant we play fluently ? like top epl teams - Key to the top 3 this season.

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby yckatbjywtbiastkamb » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:54 pm

john craig wrote:You're assessment of how the top 3 teams play is all wrong.  Arsenal are the only team in the prem that plays really fluent football, passing from back to front.  They hardly ever play long balls.  In addition, the fact that they usually only add 1 or 2 players each year and most of the team have played together for ages helps the fluidity of their play.  They are the benchmark for us imo.

Chelsea defend well as a team and have the best defence, that is their main strength.  Attacking-wise they rely on long balls to Drogba and the individual flair of Duff, Robben and Lampard.  They are not a fluent team to watch.

Man U don't play many long balls, but their play was not that fluent last year either.  They keep the ball better than us but their passing is not at the level of Arsenal.  Again they rely more on individuals now than they did in the late 90's when they cut through teams with their passing every week.

We weren't a fluent passing team under Houllier because of his counter-attack tactics, and we aren't that fluent yet under Rafa because we have a lot of new players coming in from other leagues and Rafa himself is adjusting tactically to the premiership, but we will improve this season.

i think your the only one john to mention the magic word - houllier.
for over 30 years liverpool was a team renowned for its passing style of play and even when we went through relative baron spells like when roy evans was in charge we still played some lovely stuff. in fact one of the charges levelled at roy was that we were too `nice` and passed the ball for the sake of it.
when gerrard houllier began to play it longer the players he brought in were bought to suit this gameplan, and training was shaped around this philosophy. he was there five years dont forget. whenever we went a goal down under houllier you could see the players didnt believe they could turn the game around. it takes years to get players who lack confidence in possession able enough to play a fluid game. one of benitez`s minor miracles last season was that he got us playing decent football so quickly, we might not be where we were in a pure footballing sense but we`re certainly on the way.
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:02 pm

drummerphil wrote:surely the first thing we have to do is learn how to win and make ourselves damn difficult to beat by however or whatever means it takes.We can then go forward and with the confidence from winning and grinding out results away from home,hopefully the confident fluid football will come

I see what you mean there, and you're right, we lost too easily to teams last season.  But Houllier actually set us up as a hard to beat team in his first few seasons, problem was that after instilling this 'sit back and counter-attack' attitude, it was difficult for him to change the team's mentality to one that played attacking football.

I think what Rafa has to do is instill a winning mentality, not a 'hard to beat' one, both are very different in my opinion.

Rafa has introduced new ideas such as defending much higher up the pitch and attacking as a team, playing the ball wide (although we do need better wide players for this in the long term) and also the zonal marking from set pieces.  The signing of Crouch and Morientes (back-to-goal strikers) shows that he wants the ball held up for our midfield to play further forward.  Eventually, when he gets all the players he wants and the players get used to his system, we will have a team that is attacking AND hard to beat.....hopefully :)
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:06 pm

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:
john craig wrote:You're assessment of how the top 3 teams play is all wrong.  Arsenal are the only team in the prem that plays really fluent football, passing from back to front.  They hardly ever play long balls.  In addition, the fact that they usually only add 1 or 2 players each year and most of the team have played together for ages helps the fluidity of their play.  They are the benchmark for us imo.

Chelsea defend well as a team and have the best defence, that is their main strength.  Attacking-wise they rely on long balls to Drogba and the individual flair of Duff, Robben and Lampard.  They are not a fluent team to watch.

Man U don't play many long balls, but their play was not that fluent last year either.  They keep the ball better than us but their passing is not at the level of Arsenal.  Again they rely more on individuals now than they did in the late 90's when they cut through teams with their passing every week.

We weren't a fluent passing team under Houllier because of his counter-attack tactics, and we aren't that fluent yet under Rafa because we have a lot of new players coming in from other leagues and Rafa himself is adjusting tactically to the premiership, but we will improve this season.

i think your the only one john to mention the magic word - houllier.
for over 30 years liverpool was a team renowned for its passing style of play and even when we went through relative baron spells like when roy evans was in charge we still played some lovely stuff. in fact one of the charges levelled at roy was that we were too `nice` and passed the ball for the sake of it.
when gerrard houllier began to play it longer the players he brought in were bought to suit this gameplan, and training was shaped around this philosophy. he was there five years dont forget. whenever we went a goal down under houllier you could see the players didnt believe they could turn the game around. it takes years to get players who lack confidence in possession able enough to play a fluid game. one of benitez`s minor miracles last season was that he got us playing decent football so quickly, we might not be where we were in a pure footballing sense but we`re certainly on the way.

You've summed up nicely how Houllier's influence affected us.  And yeah it'll take time to change.  But Rafa is the man to do it alright
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Postby 66-1120597113 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:14 pm

It just cracks me up when people are so impatient and expect miracles and then when we achieve something they disect it and come to the conclusion that are lucky! We won the fu.king champions league!! Rafa won us the champions league in his 1st yr with a new team in a foreign country but yeah we were lucky 10 times!My fu.king ars.hole Mister Luis Garcia,take a bow tos.er!  :rasp
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:15 pm

BarryBelfast wrote:It just cracks me up when people are so impatient and expect miracles and then when we achieve something they disect it and come to the conclusion that are lucky! We won the fu.king champions league!! Rafa won us the champions league in his 1st yr with a new team in a foreign country but yeah we were lucky 10 times!My fu.king ars.hole Mister Luis Garcia,take a bow tos.er!  :rasp

:D

I see you got your keyboard fixed!!
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Postby 66-1120597113 » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:17 pm

Yeah £50 to replace for a laptop ! Robbery :D
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Postby skipper » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:20 pm

1. when olympiacos hit the post and bar,in the away leg, group stages.

2. Deportive scoring an own goal away, group stages.

3. 3 goals versus olympicos in last 20 mins.

4. Del piero's header ruled offside at Anfield, when it was clearly on.

5. Juventus hitting the post in Turin.

6. Lampard Missing a Sitter.

6a. Gudjohnson missing a sitter.

7. Ibrahimovich missing a sitter.

8. Shevchenko goal ruled offside when it was clearly on.

9. dudek save from schevchenko,

10. Dudek penalty save from Pirlo, when dudek was 4 yards off his line.


Your point is ???

All teams need a bit of luck.  In those matches, we played well, but gave the opposition a chance.  And they missed.  We can't play perfect ball and win without luck.

Rafa's a winner and he'll win many trophies at LFC.  Just have faith and gave our players a chance.  The signings aren't really really great, but team chemistry is key, and I think our team has good chemistry.
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Postby Mikz » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:24 pm

Chemistry yes and we have fight,ive never seen a Liverpool team fight like this one,especially when we were down to the bare bones last season.Rafa has instilled the will to win-credit to him -when he arrived he said that was his first aim.
     I just think its strange that the only people who seem to think we have no fluency are Liverpool fans?I wonder do out own fans analize our team too much and miss the good points?
WE ARE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE. Why even make a list of lucky points we had-My God -Luck hasnt been our best friend especially with injuries..I can think of many things that went against us on the field too.
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Postby Liverpool 4 EVA » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:46 pm

Bloody hell.

People always want things INSTANTLY!!  :angry:

We have a reasonably new manager, LOTS and LOTS of new players and we are instantly meant to be the harlem globetrotters of world football eh?

BE REASONABLE and give a LITTLE MORE TIME!

If you look at Benítez's previous side, they where one of the most fluent most brilliant passing team in Europe.

I imagine he is trying to do the same here too.

And to be honest, the Valencia side that Benítez had was better than our current side, but I'm sure that within 2 years wel'll have the same quality.

People ALWAYS find things to complain about - I bet if we win the champions league and premiership this season, someone is bound to say "but we didn't win the league cup!" SHEEEEEEEEEEZZZ

Cheers!
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Postby Luis Garcia » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:20 am

Mikz wrote:WE ARE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE. Why even make a list of lucky points we had-My God -Luck hasnt been our best friend especially with injuries..I can think of many things that went against us on the field too.

Thats an interesting point you make.

We are champions of europe, BUT ARE WE THE BEST TEAM IN EUROPE? we struggle to be in the top 10.

Thats a difference, when the LFC of 77/78 won the European cup, we were the best team in europe. Are we better than Milan , Chelsea, Juventus, etc?

This season, should tell us everything, after winning the european cup, and will Rafa's gamble on buying a few mediocre players pay off. (Crouch, Zenden, Gonzales, Sissoko etc)
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Postby Mikz » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:36 am

We maybe arent as consistent as the likes of Milan,Chelsea etc,but when it came to the crunch-we knocked em all stone cold.People say the best teams dont always win cups but this was group and 2 leg games-and to me thats different. Our performances against the Leverkusen,Juve etc where of the highest order-from what one would expect of the best team in europe :D Dont doubt it just enjoy it
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:31 am

Dear oh dear. "Mummy, Mummy, I want a..." Luis Garcia, you are a gimp.
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Postby Liverpool 4 EVA » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:22 am

Luis Garcia wrote:
Mikz wrote:WE ARE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE. Why even make a list of lucky points we had-My God -Luck hasnt been our best friend especially with injuries..I can think of many things that went against us on the field too.

Thats an interesting point you make.

We are champions of europe, BUT ARE WE THE BEST TEAM IN EUROPE? we struggle to be in the top 10.

Thats a difference, when the LFC of 77/78 won the European cup, we were the best team in europe. Are we better than Milan , Chelsea, Juventus, etc?

This season, should tell us everything, after winning the european cup, and will Rafa's gamble on buying a few mediocre players pay off. (Crouch, Zenden, Gonzales, Sissoko etc)

You really want too much too soon.

Our achievement last season was AMAZING given the cicrumstances.

We won the most prestigious prize in world club football and won a lot of money and prestige along the way.

We got to another cup final and where minutes away from winning that too.

We had a squad hit with an extraordinary amount of injuries and Rafa had inherited an EXTREMELY POOR side.

We have seen GREAT improvements in many players and yet you still have the ordasity to complain?

And you call the following players average? Crouch, Zenden, Gonzales, Sissoko?....

Zenden: If i'm not mistaken he was voted the best Middlesborough player last season.

Crouch: Also had a good season last year in a very poor side.

Sissoko: Already shown he is quality in Spain, is young, and will only improve under Benítez.

Mark Gonzalez: Perhaps he will never play for us but anyway, this young guy has been hailed as the best and most exciting player from Chile since Marcelo Salas. I've seen him play and he is GOOD! with a potential to be OUTSTANDING!

So I guess you're right, all of the above players mentioned are all just MEDIOCORE  ???

:laugh:

Yeah RIGHT!  :p
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Postby oOShrimpyOo » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:13 am

ok been reading this and couldnt believe i read a post saying chelsea do not have a fluid playstyle. chelsea do have fluidity in their play, and they are really good passers of the ball. they do mix things up and play long balls and are probably the best team in the prem at counter attacking. They are creative and play attractive football. the community shield was a good game to watch with both arsenal and chelsea playing really attractive football. i agree we need more time under benitez, and i hope his training and tactics hes developing for us pays off. i also agree a few of the players need time, but i also think that we need a cleanup, as some players are passed the ball and they dont know what to do with it and end up passing backwards far to often. these players havent got the quality for our side, and benitez knows this, but has to make do with them for the time being. this makes us look really flat in our playing style, because these players have no creativity. we also need to be playing consistently, and not just shine in big games, and get rid of this attitude of 'well we've lost 3 points this game we'll make it up next week' this is the type of attitude i see to often in the players if we went 3-0 down to say bolton (<-- an example). the team wouldnt work their socks off and try to get back into the game as we did against AC milan, but they should be! again this shows just some of the players we have are there for the bread thats it.
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Postby 66-1120597113 » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:02 am

Right ive got it!!
Since LFC are not good enough and totally in a lot of peoples eyes are never gonna win anything again because apparently we've already had our luck and we're :censored: and it was a freak season last year and Rafa knows more about the ashes and ice skating than football and We are never gonna be good enuf!
1)Firstly we will go out tomorrow and beat Boro 10 nil
2)The Pool will do a lap of honour and salute Luis Garcia who made this post and apologise 4 bein so lucky
3)A plane will fly over the riverside with a banner off the back sayin 'We dont deserve the Euro Cup'  we was lucky and we aint the best team in europe!
4)Rafa will shake Steve McLarens hand and say we never deserved to win,we was lucky again,as usual!
5)Liverpool FC will send all fans even those who only want to support us a years supply of they're fav tipple gratis !
6)If we are lucky again this year the club will put on free trips to all Euro matches we play in
7)In fact Rafa will pick us all up at our door in our own personal helicopter piloted by our fav player and take us to all our matches!
8)We will win the league by 13 clear points just to go 1 better than Chelsea
9)Malcolm Glazier will unmask himself as a die hard Pool fan,pull out and Utd will  crash and be forgotten
10)Rafa will stand down and let us all manage the club from the internet!
What an insult to our great  club this thread has been!Lucky?? the only luck i feel is lucky to support such a great team and institution that brings me joy!
Luis Garcia who made this post do me a favour?Watch the final in Istanbul again,watch it,watch our boys! Pick a player called Jamie Carragher for example,watch it again?Watch HIM!
It make me cry every time,the man can hardly stand after all his effort and hard  work!U then tell us wee was fu!kin lucky!
Passion balls and hard work won us the Euro cup last year,not to mention a great manager and team spirit against the odds that was stronger than financial superiority and supposed better teams!
LUCK? ???? ???
A bagful this season for me please!
YNWA
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