Liverpool FC Forum

[kop_ainsy]

right just like to say i'v been reading this forum for about four years now and thoroughly enjoy reading the posts you guys put time and effort into writing and find some of your opinions interesting.i have never had the time to post myself due to work etc but do tend to read as often as i can.more importantly to the point why i have registered i have found theres a fair bit of pettyness and little snidy digs at posters on here..and yes i know after this people may looks at what iv put and ignore due to the fact i dont post myself but just like to get my point across..for example this thread from owzat is a great read and certainly interesting and like reading what he has to say aswell as bigmicks hes another good poster and feel they should get some respect off the other lads as they put time into the forum and dont deserve negatives back...anyway off my chest now:p  sort it out ey dont rekon theres a better liverpool forum going so dont let individuals spoil it YNWA

[Effes]

right just like to say i'v been reading this forum for about four years now and thoroughly enjoy reading the posts you guys put time and effort into writing and find some of your opinions interesting.i have never had the time to post myself due to work etc but do tend to read as often as i can.more importantly to the point why i have registered i have found theres a fair bit of pettyness and little snidy digs at posters on here..and yes i know after this people may looks at what iv put and ignore due to the fact i dont post myself but just like to get my point across..for example this thread from owzat is a great read and certainly interesting and like reading what he has to say aswell as bigmicks hes another good poster and feel they should get some respect off the other lads as they put time into the forum and dont deserve negatives back...anyway off my chest now:p  sort it out ey dont rekon theres a better liverpool forum going so dont let individuals spoil it YNWA

OK Kop, welcome.

Unfortunatley some people get emotionally charged by any critical posts, and decide to "attack" these posters.

Hopefully it has all blown over.

[kop_ainsy]

i know thats why i felt the need to write myself people seem to pick at such little things but anyway back to football:p

[bigmick]

right just like to say i'v been reading this forum for about four years now and thoroughly enjoy reading the posts you guys put time and effort into writing and find some of your opinions interesting.i have never had the time to post myself due to work etc but do tend to read as often as i can.more importantly to the point why i have registered i have found theres a fair bit of pettyness and little snidy digs at posters on here..and yes i know after this people may looks at what iv put and ignore due to the fact i dont post myself but just like to get my point across..for example this thread from owzat is a great read and certainly interesting and like reading what he has to say aswell as bigmicks hes another good poster and feel they should get some respect off the other lads as they put time into the forum and dont deserve negatives back...anyway off my chest now:p  sort it out ey dont rekon theres a better liverpool forum going so dont let individuals spoil it YNWA

Well fairly obviously mate I'm gonna say welcome to the forum after those nice words .

Should try and put ten minutes aside yourself to post though. Doesn't have to a book or anything, just becuase I waffle on and Owzats post contain stacks of research, it doesn't mean you can't make a decent point in a couple of sentences. In reality you get your point accross better that way anyway.

That's what I keep telling people  .

[kop_ainsy]

[/quote]Well fairly obviously mate I'm gonna say welcome to the forum after those nice words  .

Should try and put ten minutes aside yourself to post though. Doesn't have to a book or anything, just becuase I waffle on and Owzats post contain stacks of research, it doesn't mean you can't make a decent point in a couple of sentences. In reality you get your point accross better that way anyway.

That's what I keep telling people   



Yer mate i can see the point your making i was a member a few years back but got into a bit of a heated pointless debate with another user so chose to just read the points after that but anyway im making amends now

[Scottbot]

By Martin Samuel - I'm not usually a fan of Samuel but this isn't a bad read except the bit where he has Fletcher starting in a joint Liverpool skum team.

Why is Fergie ahead of Liverpool? Simple, look at the team above...

Sometimes the best explanations are the simplest ones. Princess Diana died because her driver was drunk and going too fast. The Twin Towers were hit by Islamic terrorists, not CIA agents. The continued success of Simon Cowell and the Osbourne family is, indeed, one of the harbingers of the apocalypse.

To this list, we can add the reason Manchester United will, in all likelihood, move five points clear of Liverpool at the top of the Premier League table by beating Fulham tonight.

They have a better team.

Now this may come as a surprise to those still looking for clues to account for the change in the balance of power this season. In recent months, many otherwise rational people have become convinced that Liverpool have frittered away supremacy in the title race based on a combination of rogue and random factors.
Rafael Benitez

Shouted down: Rafael Benitez's press conference rant didn't help his side - but it isn't the reason Liverpool lie second in the table.

Mind games played by Sir Alex Ferguson, the fractious contract negotiations of Rafael Benitez, boardroom unrest at Anfield or any number of peripheral events are believed to have inspired Manchester United to claw away at Liverpool's lead. This is good news for analysts, commentators and headline-writers, who have had, as The Flintstones theme tune puts it, a gay old time.

Without wishing to spoil the fun, however, it is more straightforward than that. Take the best Manchester United XI and the best Liverpool XI and put them together: how many of Benitez's team would get into Ferguson's? Not many. And that is why the championship is again heading for Old Trafford.

By my reckoning, maximum four, minimum two. Split the difference, call it three. Whichever way, there is nothing here to suggest that Liverpool can get the better of Manchester United this season, or next, without substantial upgrading in the summer.
   
More from Martin Samuel...

    *   MARTIN SAMUEL IN ANTIGUA: High time England plumped for a Waugh-lord 16/02/09
    *   MARTIN SAMUEL: No more puppets Roman, what you need is a monster 11/02/09
    *   MARTIN SAMUEL: It's about a Test of character and this bunch get my goat 08/02/09
    *   MARTIN SAMUEL IN JAMAICA: If the rage eats away at Pietersen's talent, beware a bitter end 03/02/09
    *   MARTIN SAMUEL ON MONDAY: Shut window on this pact with the devil 01/02/09
    *   THE DEBATE: Martin Samuel responds to your comments on FA Cup replays 28/01/09
    *   Martin Samuel: Belgian dopes aid the cheats 27/01/09
    *   MARTIN SAMUEL: Sheffield United's cosy deal to cut out Spring is all wrong 25/01/09
    *   VIEW FULL ARCHIVE



Now, this is not a foolproof system for calculating future champions - it affords no explanation for England's failure to qualify for the 2008 European Championship, for instance - but it is not a bad one.

Using it, Liverpool would be placed above Chelsea, although not by a huge distance. Manchester United, by contrast, would dominate Chelsea with just one player (Frank Lampard) or a generous three (Lampard plus Jose Bosingwa and Ashley Cole) getting into Ferguson's current team.

Assessment is made on form this season, not reputation. So while there may have been a time when Jose Reina, Liverpool's goalkeeper, would have shaded it from Edwin van der Sar, in goal for Manchester United, it is not right now when the Dutchman has beaten a long-standing British record for minutes without conceding a league goal, and is closing in on the 1,390- minute European record set by Dany Verlinden of Club Brugge in Belgium in 1990.

Javier Mascherano is another who would have walked into the holding midfield role at any club last season, but he has been a disappointment this year, perhaps as a result of his exertions for Argentina during the Olympics.

That leaves Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard as the two Liverpool players who would definitely be accommodated in the Manchester United team while, on a good day, one of Xabi Alonso or Mascherano could make the defensive midfield and an out-of-position Jamie Carragher would contend at full back.
Gerrard and Torres

Tag team: Gerrard and Torres are the only Liverpool players who would definitely win a place in Ferguson's line-up.

Benitez's penchant for drama has drawn understandably negative comment as Liverpool's grip on the prize has weakened, but he cannot be held solely responsible. His squad deficiencies are being exposed just as Manchester United's strength in depth is at its most apparent.

Arsene Wenger, the Arsenal manager, had it right. Asked about the mind games that famously denied Newcastle United the title in 1996, he replied that Newcastle's defence, not Kevin Keegan's outburst on Sky TV, determined the final placings. Logical explanations get you nowhere in the pantomime that is the Premier League, though, so instead we waste valuable time analysing pronouncements from Old Trafford, and their effect, at the expense of crediting what is arguably the finest squad of footballers assembled by an English club.

There has never been a group like the one at Manchester United. Gary Neville versus Wes Brown versus Rafael da Silva, and that is just for the right back spot. Wayne Rooney versus Dimitar Berbatov versus Carlos Tevez versus Cristiano Ronaldo. Yet we ignore this and become distracted by Rafa's rant.

There are similarities with the collapse of England's cricket team in Jamaica two weeks ago, in that several small factors might have made an impact on the cohesion of the team, but none were actually in the middle with bat in hand.

   
  HAVE YOUR SAY... 

PICK YOUR BEST XI FROM LIVERPOOL AND MAN UNITED LEGENDS Our chief sports writer Martin Samuel has selected his combined best team from Manchester United and Liverpool's current line-ups, but who would get in to an all-time all stars team? Schmeichel over Grobelaar? McManaman or Giggs down the left?
Ian Rush
TELL US WHAT YOU THINK

So a certain incendiary quality around Benitez might not have helped Liverpool at a crucial moment in the season, but this is not as significant as a Liverpool squad that remains a work in progress and one at Manchester United that is a work of art.

So Benitez does not get on with Rick Parry, the chief executive? Big deal.

Jimmy Greaves, in wonderfully flippant mode, summed up the inconsequence of departmental relationships on the dressing room, by recalling his time at Tottenham Hotspur. 'Most of us didn't like Bill Nicholson, and Bill Nicholson didn't like us,' he said. 'In fact, the only thing we all agreed on was that we couldn't stand the board of directors.'

Benitez's distance from Parry and George Gillett, one half of the partnership of American owners, may be a problem for the long-term stability of the club and could be very damaging in the summer if he leaves, but it should not be, here and now, an issue for the playing staff. Nor should Benitez's feelings about Ferguson's influence on English football have an effect.

That press conference tirade is often cited as explanation for Liverpool's reversal of fortune, but what would the fall-out be anyway? That Liverpool players rally around Benitez in the desire to stick one up United? They seem to have had that motivation for some while, judging by Mascherano's furious display at Old Trafford last season.

The idea that Benitez's claims put pressure on his players is also ridiculous; as if there were previously no pressure on a Liverpool team with an opportunity to win its first title in the modern era. Had Benitez taken a vow of silence until the end of the season, the tension at Anfield would still be oppressively thick.

The reality is that Liverpool are going up against a colossal group of players at United and no team, not even the lavishly-assembled Chelsea, can live with them right now. They have a unique multiplicity, so even the understudies of understudies would get into many good teams (as Mikael Silvestre did at Arsenal this season).

It is in many ways the perfect squad, because it also provides for the future in players such as Ben Foster, the reserve goalkeeper, and Jonny Evans, who has fitted in magnificently at centre half in the absence of Rio Ferdinand this season.

It is a sign of United's power that they could play an unconventional central midfield of Ryan Giggs and Darren Fletcher against Chelsea and still win comfortably. On another day it might be Michael Carrick and Anderson or Paul Scholes. If Benitez had United's squad he could rant at or fall out with who he liked: he would still win the league, as United almost certainly will.

Now combine the two teams, starting at the back. Both have good keepers, but there can be no argument that a man who has gone 1,212 minutes without conceding a league goal is among the players of the season. Van der Sar, therefore, gets the nod over Reina. He has been on a roll since emerging victorious from the penalty shoot-out at the Champions League final last season.
Sir Alex Ferguson

In control: Expect Fergie to be smiling again come May.

United have three strong right backs and the only alternative would be to overlook them all for Carragher, Benitez's defensive rock, out of position in a role he has occupied in key matches in Europe. This would be appealing because, to put it bluntly, he is not getting into this team at centre half.

Those positions are reserved for Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic, an early contender for Footballer of the Year. Ferdinand's appearances through the season have been restricted by injury, but Vidic has been a constant and as a partnership they have now surpassed John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho of Chelsea.

At left back, United's Patrice Evra is the best in the country at the moment, ahead of Ashley Cole, of Chelsea.

Midfield brings another Manchester United landslide with Gerrard the only Liverpool player in a four that would comprise Ronaldo, Fletcher and Giggs. Torres would be the goalscoring spearhead, but his partner would be Rooney. Final total: Manchester United 8, Liverpool 3. And one of Liverpool's three gets in with a shoe-horn.

Despite the excellent job done by Roy Hodgson, Manchester United should beat Fulham tonight and, at that moment, a daunting lead will open up. Liverpool still have to go to Old Trafford, so the battle is not over, but the biggest shock of the season would be if United threw it away from here.

If that were the case, there genuinely would be need for an investigation - into whether Ronaldo's heart was still in Manchester, whether Berbatov's arrival had unsettled the team, if Ferguson was correct in his treatment of Tevez.

Were Manchester United to blow it, we would all be looking behind the story for clues. It is easier to work out what has gone wrong at Liverpool, though: the answer is right there, on the teamsheet.

[bigmick]

Yep I wouldn't argue with any of that. If we're honest they've got a much better squad than us, and a better team but not quite by such a big margin.

Two points come out of that admission. Firstly, given we've spent very close to what they have over the last five seasons it would be nice if we were closer to them in terms of quality. Crucially, they've allowed blokes such as Fletcher, John O'Shea, Wes Brown to come through in the last few years, as well as this Evens kid who's coming through now. This really helps them, as does the shrewd buying and less of a tendency to go for 'options" and "possibilities". Whatever the reasons though, squad wise we are well behind.

The other point it throws up at least for me anyway, is that the disparity in quality is precisely the reason that many of us were urging the team to really go for the throat earlier in the season while the Mancs were being uncharacteristically wasteful. It was always fairly clear that at some point they were going to crank their juggernaught into gear, but we had numerous excellent opportunities to put plenty of distance between us and them before it happened.

We didn't so here we are, hoping that Fulham can do to them what they did to us.

[kan]

i haven't been following the topic but my answer to the question would be
confidence and effort and luck.

[Owzat]

Yep I wouldn't argue with any of that. If we're honest they've got a much better squad than us, and a better team but not quite by such a big margin.

Two points come out of that admission. Firstly, given we've spent very close to what they have over the last five seasons it would be nice if we were closer to them in terms of quality. Crucially, they've allowed blokes such as Fletcher, John O'Shea, Wes Brown to come through in the last few years, as well as this Evens kid who's coming through now. This really helps them, as does the shrewd buying and less of a tendency to go for 'options" and "possibilities". Whatever the reasons though, squad wise we are well behind.

The other point it throws up at least for me anyway, is that the disparity in quality is precisely the reason that many of us were urging the team to really go for the throat earlier in the season while the Mancs were being uncharacteristically wasteful. It was always fairly clear that at some point they were going to crank their juggernaught into gear, but we had numerous excellent opportunities to put plenty of distance between us and them before it happened.

We didn't so here we are, hoping that Fulham can do to them what they did to us.

Do you think perhaps Rafa is guilty of disassembling Houllier's squad too hastily, letting players go on silly cheap transfers or releasing them without thinking about the shorter term and how those players could play a role?

I think of Fowler being released, Hamann, Finnan going cheap, Zenden etc. OK some of them would have wanted more regular football, but surely a good manager would have persuaded some of them to stay and bolster our squad strength. Maybe not some like Crouch and Warnock, but you do wonder when so many of our squad are out on loan and we're lacking back-up strikers with Rafa trying to hide that weakness with cobblers about having Kuyt, Babel and N'Gog in reserve - we saw how that was going against Portsmouth!

I can get shot of an entire Liverpool squad in less than 13 months on a football management game, Rafa's done next to that in 3-4 seasons which in real football is maybe equivalent to 1-2 seasons on a football game. One thing we lack is stability, very few (fringe) players given time to settle. Our best performers tend to be Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Alonso, Mascherano, Carragher and Reina because they're in the side more often than not. Most of the rest probably don't know if they'll be here next season as Rafa has his favourites and players like Crouch, Agger and others don't know if the boss will use them or if they'll have to go elsewhere. How may manc players do you think want to leave - fringe or otherwise? I think Tevez has murmured discontent but he's not been made permanent yet so that's more likely the source of him grumbling. I gather Fletcher has played 200 times for the mancs, how many of our back-up or fringe players can say that? How many of our starters can?

Alonso 163 appearances
Mascherano 75 appearances
Reina 190 appearances - and he's our keeper so bound to be regular
Benayoun 75 appearances
Torres 70 appearances
Kuyt 130 appearances
Agger 71 appearances
Skrtel 35 appearances

Gerrard, Carragher and Hyypia are probably the only players in the squad to play 200+ times for Liverpool. Can't think of anyone missing bar Arbeloa who's been here long enough and been remotely regular enough to have clocked over 100 appearances - in fact he's on 85 by one source I found. Christ, even Rafa's only just closing in on 300 games in charge and that's taken him every game since 04/05.

[112-1077774096]

fowler was sold by houllier mate, unless you mean his second coming

[Owzat]

fowler was sold by houllier mate, unless you mean his second coming

Of course. I know Fowler did the rounds including Leeds and Man City by which time he'd been written off as injury prone. I'd have him in the current squad without a second thought, even if he isn't at his prime he is still an experienced striker who could do a job for us. I gather he's now joined an A-League side down under, good luck to him

[Owzat]

Effes wanted to revive this thread with stats of past Premiership winning managers. I had to go through an internet search engine as frankly, the search engine on this site is carp

If we draw this afternoon then I think serious rethinks about 'loyalty' to the manager should be widespread, he's shown nothing to suggest he'd come good and fergie is one of only two managers I could find going back to the early eighties who'd taken more than four seasons to win the league.

1st League Titles

Jose Mourinho : Chelsea 2004/05 (1st season)
Arsene Wenger : Arsenal 1997/98 (2nd season, manager in Sep 1996)
Kenny Dalglish : Blackburn 1994/95 (4th season, manager in Oct 1991)
Alex Ferguson : Man Utd 1992/93 (7th season, manager in Nov 1986)
Howard Wilkinson : Leeds Utd 1991/92 (4th season, manager in Oct 1988)
George Graham : Arsenal 1988/89 (3rd season , manager in May 1986)
Kenny Dalglish : Liverpool 1985/86 (1st season double, player-manager)
Howard Kendall : Everton 1984/85 (4th season , player-manager in May 1981)
Joe Fagan : Liverpool 1983/84 (1st season)
Ron Saunders : Aston Villa 1980/81 (7th season, manager in 1974)
Brian Clough : Nottingham Forest 1977/78 (3rd season, manager in Jan 1975)
Dave McKay : Derby County 1974/75 (2nd season, manager in Oct 1973)

So only two of the last TWELVE managers to win the league have taken more than four seasons to do so, that's over 30+ years. None have taken that long since fergie became manager in the mid-80s, maybe four or five seasons is more than par for survival for a manager these days, but that's a fairly exclusive list bearing in mind managers have been at clubs four seasons or more and not done it. Note Evans didn't do it, Houllier didn't, Rafa hasn't yet - and it's not getting any easier. It's no coincidence that teams haven't won the league having been promoted the previous season since Clough did it with Forest. And no side has won the Premiership having finished 4th or lower the previous season. Why? Probably because cash has ruled the roost and it's rare indeed for a club to have a sugar daddy arrive and the previous manager survive long enough to take as long as fergie to do it. Otherwise a manager isn't likely to discover a 'magic formula' in his 5th, 6th, 7th etc season that he didn't in his first four.


I'd like to think Rafa can win the league, however he is making a right meal of management and maybe our league position is somewhat flattering and his (lack of) ability as a manager is what's causing our rapid decline. TEN games to go from seven points ahead of the mancs to five behind - a manager capable of winning the league would be the one reversing a gap.

It's quoting myself from the first page of a thread around Feb 1st

[DrPepe]

I'm looking around a few forums trying to decide which one to start posting too and this one seems by far the least friendly, I have been into 2 threads so far and they both have viscious arguments going on, now have I come at a bad time or is it always like this? 

I'm a newbie too, but I have been scanning this place for a few weeks 

Seems like a lot of healthy debate on here .... and a lot of stressed out reds, too 

I wonder what the mood was like here this time last season? was the "safety zone" of 3rd/4th place less stressful than the current league challenge?   

back to original topic - although the stats regarding the number of points gained does not support the idea that we get better results in the 2nd half of the season, this is all relative to the performances of the teams we're competing with - for example under Rafa, we've never finished a season in a lower league position than we were at the halfway stage (and have shown an improvement several times) ... whether that'll beenough to overhaul manu i dont' know ...

[Scottbot]

Seems like a lot of healthy debate on here .... and a lot of stressed out reds, too 

I wonder what the mood was like here this time last season? was the "safety zone" of 3rd/4th place less stressful than the current league challenge?   

In a word....YES!

It's certainly sent this place to the shi...thouse!

And lets be honest, it really sucks on here the last couple of months and I don't see it getting any better unless we actually go out and win the title

[Madmax]

Seems like a lot of healthy debate on here .... and a lot of stressed out reds, too 

I wonder what the mood was like here this time last season? was the "safety zone" of 3rd/4th place less stressful than the current league challenge?   

In a word....YES!

It's certainly sent this place to the shi...thouse!

And lets be honest, it really sucks on here the last couple of months and I don't see it getting any better unless we actually go out and win the title

TBH sometimes i get depressed on this forum..   
Thats why it better to stick to the general chat and check out some find chicks on the LFC chicks thread