Liverpool FC Forum

[redmikey]

as far as the science argument goes that we should be looking for players who's dad is 6" 4 and can get to level 19 on the beeb test, i think we should be looking for players who are great on the ball and can see a pass

the modern game has higher demands on the players but they should still be footballers and not athletes, djimi traore is
a great example GREAT IN TRAINING AT RUNNING, lousy on the pitch at playing

would a young matt le tiss get a place at a new academy  because his genes say he is going to be a fat boy

robbie fowler might not get through because of his nose and breathing capacity , owen to small and gerrard his bad bad as a kid, imo roy evans should be employed by the club with the youth as under him the highest amount of talent flourished at the club

owen,gerrrard,carra,tommson,harkness,wright,

[JC_81]

I agree St Mike, it was a great achievement to win the youth cup with a set of lads who'd been together since they were 9, but unfortunately that'll be as far as some of them go in the game - the pinnacle of their careers at just 17/18.  It's fair to say sometimes you have to hold your hands up and say that's fair enough, there isn't the talent in the local area.  I do agree with keeping the youth team going, as I've said before I think it's the duty of the club to put something back into the community and provide kids a chance to make a career for themselves, if not for us then at a smaller professional club.

That said, let's not kid ourselves that the academy is helping LFC to produce first team players and improve our sporting chances at the top end.  It's not.  Harsh reality.

I'd also challenge that the academy costs only 1 million a year to run.  That may include physical costs of running the facilities (upkeep, electricity, maintenance), along with coaching staff and YTS wages.  But what about the costs of covering recruitment and the worldwide scouting for teenage prospects?  That has to cost us far more on top.  This Dutch guy we've brought in to oversee coaching at the academy has to be on a few hundred grand a year, as does Elias, the guy we brought from Southampton to oversee recruitment.  1 million quid a year??  No chance.  It's got to be losing money big time and the whole set up has to be looked at if we still aren't producing players a couple of years down the line.  I'm willing to give the academy a couple of years to see what happens after the recent re-structure, but I'm not overly optimistic.

Let's not forget the academy was set up post-Steven Gerrard.  It hasn't produced one single player for the first team yet.

The "scattergun" approach suggests that Rafa and his scouting network are not scrutinising each young player as much as they should before signing them. Only now has he had the real opportunity to bring in talent with a more rounded consideration of what is needed. Judge him on how the current crop of youngsters turn out and not those who were signed or inherited 3 years ago, at least now he is aware of the problems academies face and aware of the type of talent we need to sign - foreign youngsters are technically much more developed and more suited to making the step up to a "cosmopolitan league" which the EPL has now become and was not so much 10 years ago - a key problem.

Our coaching techniques for young talent i.e. below the age of 16 are more focussed on competitive play as opposed to skills based work. By the age of 16 you have a fair idea of the potential of a player - i.e. if they are technically good enough or not for the Premier League. Our young players, because of the flaws in their earlier training programmes, tend not to be anywhere near as technically developed as those particularly on the continent, but in South America aswell. By the age of 18-21 most are either released or sent on loan to lower league clubs, in the end their lack of technical ability limits them to playing at Championship or lower league level football- with the odd exception who are potentially steady eddies in the EPL, but rarely make waves.

I don't blame Rafa for looking for young foreign talent, if the current system is not working then you have to find another source of technical quality with which to work and build from.

On a final note, I think the academy costs nearer £3m a year to run - but given the recent changes this figure may have changed.

I agree and disagree with you LFC2007.  I think you're spot on in terms of the gulf in technical ability between British youngsters and the continentals at say the age of 16 - clearly their technical coaching below this age is more skills orientated, whereas the English coaching style is results orientated and physically orientated from a very early age now and the kids either sink or swim.  It seems to be more of a 'see if they can handle it' rather than actually 'coach them' technique.  Not so sure I agree that foreign youngsters are more suited to the step up to the EPL.  It may be a more cosmopolitan league but it's still faster paced than any foreign league and players coming from abroad (young or old) find the transition difficult.

I don't blame Rafa for bringing in foreign talent either, I just feel that we could be a bit more selective about it.  I'm not so sure Benitez himself will scrutinise these players that closely at all.  He probably sees them once or twice on tape and then relies on his scouts and coaches to fill in the gaps for him, after all that's why they're employed.

I also think around 3 million a year running costs for the academy - including recruitment, scouting, everything, is probably closer to the truth than 1 million.

[LFC2007]

I agree and disagree with you LFC2007.  I think you're spot on in terms of the gulf in technical ability between British youngsters and the continentals at say the age of 16 - clearly their technical coaching below this age is more skills orientated, whereas the English coaching style is results orientated and physically orientated from a very early age now and the kids either sink or swim.  It seems to be more of a 'see if they can handle it' rather than actually 'coach them' technique.  Not so sure I agree that foreign youngsters are more suited to the step up to the EPL.  It may be a more cosmopolitan league but it's still faster paced than any foreign league and players coming from abroad (young or old) find the transition difficult.

I don't blame Rafa for bringing in foreign talent either, I just feel that we could be a bit more selective about it.  I'm not so sure Benitez himself will scrutinise these players that closely at all.  He probably sees them once or twice on tape and then relies on his scouts and coaches to fill in the gaps for him, after all that's why they're employed.

I also think around 3 million a year running costs for the academy - including recruitment, scouting, everything, is probably closer to the truth than 1 million.

The Premier League has become increasingly cosmopolitan and much more technical as a result - in comparison to what it was like 10 years ago.

The influx of foreign players has been particularly acute over the past decade, this combined with foreign coaches and different coaching techniques has meant the standard of the league has become more technical.

The corressponding decline or the stagnating in technical ability of our youth team players has not been able to match this increase in technical level. That is why young foreign players are more capable technically at playing at the highest level, they may still have problems physically but that is something you can work on. You cannot give a player fundamental technical skills, but you can increase a player's speed, stamina, build their physique and help them adapt to the physical nature of our league. If you bring these young foreign players in early you can work on adapting to the pace and tempo of English football, but the most important thing is that they have the technical ability, something which our youngsters lack partly due to a flawed coaching emphasis from an early age.

As for Rafa scouting young players, according to Mcparland who has just left there are a number of scouts who look at young players - as you'd expect, all will pass opinion on them, and then Rafa will analyse them before making a final decision. So it's not a frivolous scattergun approach, it's a systematic process of analysis.

[JC_81]

As for Rafa scouting young players, according to Mcparland who has just left there are a number of scouts who look at young players - as you'd expect, all will pass opinion on them, and then Rafa will analyse them before making a final decision. So it's not a frivolous scattergun approach, it's a systematic process of analysis.

You called it frivelous, not me.

Systematic it may be in that obviously the scouts identify players they think have potential and pass on the info to Benitez who has the final say, but it most certainly is a scattergun approach, maybe you cannot see that but everyone else can.  What else can you call a 'systematic approach' that sees over 20 youngsters signing from abroad inside a year?  They're clearly not all top quality.

You also don't seem to be budging on your belief that foreign youngsters are more equiped to deal with the more cosmopolitan EPL than English players.  Where's your evidence for this then?  What foreign youngsters aged 16-19 have been brought to EPL clubs and flourished?

I can think of Fabregas at Arsenal.  To a lesser extent Clichy and then Anelka years ago.  Players like Alex Song, Djourou and Senderos are decent, but not top class and there are much better English prospects around.  We haven't done it with any foreign youngsters.  United have Rossi who so far has only shown flashes of potential, no one else.  Chelsea have no one worth mentioning.

On the flipside, Rooney, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Owen, Carrick etc were all regulars in the 'cosmopolitan' EPL by the age of 19.  The lists don't even compare.

Fabregas and Anelka are the ONLY two teenage foreigners that have been brought to the EPL and turned out to be real top quality and adapted at a young age.  Toure and Eboue were slightly older but at a push you could include them.  EVERY other successful foreigner in the history of the EPL has signed when they were older.  Therefore it is a complete myth that foreign youngsters are more suited to the EPL than English youngsters.

[LFC2007]

You called it frivelous, not me.

Systematic it may be in that obviously the scouts identify players they think have potential and pass on the info to Benitez who has the final say, but it most certainly is a scattergun approach, maybe you cannot see that but everyone else can.  What else can you call a 'systematic approach' that sees over 20 youngsters signing from abroad inside a year?  They're clearly not all top quality.

You also don't seem to be budging on your belief that foreign youngsters are more equiped to deal with the more cosmopolitan EPL than English players.  Where's your evidence for this then?  What foreign youngsters aged 16-19 have been brought to EPL clubs and flourished?

I can think of Fabregas at Arsenal.  To a lesser extent Clichy and then Anelka years ago.  Players like Alex Song, Djourou and Senderos are decent, but not top class and there are much better English prospects around.  We haven't done it with any foreign youngsters.  United have Rossi who so far has only shown flashes of potential, no one else.  Chelsea have no one worth mentioning.

On the flipside, Rooney, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand, Owen, Carrick etc were all regulars in the 'cosmopolitan' EPL by the age of 19.  The lists don't even compare.

Fabregas and Anelka are the ONLY two teenage foreigners that have been brought to the EPL and turned out to be real top quality and adapted at a young age.  Toure and Eboue were slightly older but at a push you could include them.  EVERY other successful foreigner in the history of the EPL has signed when they were older.  Therefore it is a complete myth that foreign youngsters are more suited to the EPL than English youngsters.

Since you want to take the condescending approach to a perfectly reasonable post, I'll give it a go too. It's FRIVOLOUS by the way.

Frivolous is a word that is synonymous with your analagy.

It is a systematic approach, you use the "scatter gun" analagy which clearly implies a low degree of scrutiny. The level of scrutiny does not change as the volume of players increases, and just because the success of those he has brought in has not come to fruition YET - I find it difficult to agree with your analagy.

You wouldn't expect 16/17 year olds to break through to the first team straight away, but they are obviously of a better technical ability than what we currently have otherwise there would be no purpose in scouting them out and signing them.

Foreign youngsters are better equipped to deal with the increased TECHNICAL nature of the EPL. Young foreign players OFTEN have a higher level of TECHNICAL ability than our youngsters of the same age. You cannot give a teenager technical ability, it is developed from a young age i.e. U16. Where is my evidence for this? Take Arsenal as an example since Rafa has not had the same time as Wenger to develop young foreign talent.... How about Denilson, Clichy, Traore, Bendtner, Djourou, Senderos, Fabregas, Diaby, Lupoli?

Then your excuse.... what have they ever won. Well I'll remind you that it takes more than young foreign talented players to win things, it takes a mix of different qualities and experiences - a mix Arsenal have not got right for the past couple of years. How about Cristiano Ronaldo and Anderson for technical ability? Largely these examples are besides the point as it's a relatively recent development in modern football, only since clubs have discovered that the Academy system has proven ineffective have they begun to turn more to young foreign talent.

The process of bringing through young foreign players is something clubs in the Premier League are turning to more so given the deficit in technical ability in young English players. Rafa obviously feels it is important to scout young talent out around the world now in order to reap the benefits in the future as oppose to keeping it exclusively British, and waiting for a failing academy to deliver. The academy system will take years to correct, it does not happen over three seasons it takes the best part of a decade. Young local players can still come through the system, it just means they will have more competition in the reserves, if anything this could raise the impetus for some of these local youngsters. If they're good enough they'll get the chance - they just haven't been good enough in the past 7 or 8 seasons largely due to failures in the academy system.


I'm not saying English talent is non-existant but we lack the technical ability at the ages of 16-19and have done over the past 6 or 7 years. You cite Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand - as far as I'm concerned the only legitimate point you have is with Rooney - the others are from a different generation - a generation where the FA charter for quality that established academies was in its infancy.

You clearly don't understand that the problem has been over the past 7 or 8 seasons, as such clubs are only relatively recently beginning to turn to young foreign talent as they realise that Academies are not delivering. Chelsea have been doing it, so have Spurs, Arsenal have, the Mancs have, Newcastle have - every top club has been doing it. In addition to failures in coaching techniques, the game is much much more globalised now than it was 10-15 years ago.

You obviously don't understand that technical ability is lacking in our U16's, that is why when they reach the ages of 18-21 they generally disappear into the lower leagues. You wouldn't see AC Milan scouting out young English talent because our youngsters are not as technically adept and would not be a worthwhile investment.

There is more to a player than technical ability, and some will make the grade with a relatively poor level of technical ability, Carragher for example, he is not the most technically able but he has other qualities that have developed particularly over the past 3 seasons that enable him to be so consistent. However, as a defender, technical ability is not as significant as in other areas where that technical ability can be the difference between unlocking a defense or turning a defender.

[red37]

And its STILL bloody raining!

[Sabre]

This thread is very good for this summer days. I haven't much to add to the good points that have been already written.

The scattergun approach works statistically and will bring you gems, it's a matter of time.

But as I've stated in the San Jose thread, there always must be some room for the local talent in the youth team.

We speak too much of talent, tackling, dribbling, crossing, but we forget the importance that the dressroom has in a football team. Players like Gerrard and Carraguer are not important only because they're superb players but also because they're scouser and a reference to remind the foreign lads in which football team they're playing.

Just the same way, if our youth system is the hive of our future players, I want them to grow as players in an atmosphere that has Liverpool spirit, and if we just add talent football wise and crowd the youth teams of foreigners, we won't achieve that. For me a combination of local talent and foreign talent is a must. Since only a small part of the youth players will actually reach the position of first team member, I'd always invest part of the room for local players so that they "make dressroom" in the mean time they try to make their way to the first team.

[mungi]

great topic guys, keep it up. i think the only reason why rafa is bringing in foregin talent is because the technical ability of many english yongters is not up to it. i have kept on saying this and if i keep on saying it my voice will be non exsistant. my solotuion would be to maybe get the youngsters at a young age, maybe 12-14 and send them over to spain for a year or too. this may sound harsh but by playing in a technically sound country the players will pick it up. it will help them develop. with their physciality and their new found technical ability, i think it will go along way to producing top class players.

[stmichael]

One thing that Heighway cannot be responsible for is the quality of the kids within the catchment area. You could hold him accountable if some of the surrounding clubs were churning out  stars on account that his scouting network are not picking them up first or their preference is another club.

This doesn’t just apply to our academy it applies to them all. It looks like one or other academy is making progress when one or two players come through in quick succession but in reality it just reflects that they have been lucky enough to have those players born locally. We’ve had the likes of McManaman, Fowler, Owen and Gerrard over the last 15 years or so and even they cannot be attributed to the academy system. There are not many regions in the country if any that have produced that level of talent in that time; certainly not in this country. They are though part of a dying breed of talent stemming from this country that will achieve that level.

You can only achieve so much with what you have at your disposal and for the big clubs it is not enough to rely on the local kids to make the big time. There are too many social factors now that hinder our kids from going on to make it as top flight professional footballers; things such as video games, television and other sports. Another factor and something that Howard Wilkinson advocates is schools football. Ex teacher Mr Wilkinson as done nothing to address the archaic schools football set up and institutionalised favouritism that goes on right through to county then subsequently national level. Nothing has changed on that front since I was at school, you are still lucky to see a bucket and sponge on the sidelines at a schools match. It is dependent on teachers giving up their spare time to coach the kids with little or no knowledge so talent does slip through the net.

It is a pity Mr Wilkinson has all but ignored the Sunday league game, the true grass roots football. The organisers of these local leagues do it as a labour of love and deserve more support from the FA. One thing is for sure, these local leagues and teams are far better set up than the schools system and I think most clubs think the same judging by the number of scouts on the sidelines. I feel that Howard Wilkinson as let down this area of grass roots football.

To make the current Academy model (that is based heavily on the Dutch system) successful, all the above factors need to be addressed in the long term. But as a manager of a top club and looking around your youth academy I can understand the need to look around the world to pick up talent. Within the constraints of the current system this means we can only bring them over to our academy at 16 years old. We are now I believe beginning to form links in Africa along with other clubs where the kids have the hunger, desire and natural athleticism to become competent footballers at the highest level so coaching these kids from an early age in their own country could well be the way forward. I know Arsene Wenger thinks so looking at his youth teams.

[Redman in wales]

From .tv

Liverpool Football Club have added the highly-regarded Paul Johnson to their new-look backroom team at the Academy. 
Johnson has taken over the role of Recruitment Manager at the Kirkby-based complex, succeeding the recently departed Barry Whitbread.
 
He joins the club from Blackburn, where he held a similar post and arrives with an impressive track record.
 
Previous to working for Rovers he'd spent 15 years at Crewe as part of their renowned youth set-up.
 
Academy Head of Recruitment Malcolm Elias told Liverpoolfc.tv today: "We are delighted to have Paul on-board. He's an excellent addition to our team.
 
"His record at Crewe needs no introduction and his reputation was such that he was head hunted by Blackburn just six months ago.
 
"He'll be given a specific responsibility for recruiting local players in the six to 14 age bracket and starts work today."
 
New Academy Technical Manager Piet Hamberg also starts his employment with the Reds today as the new era gets underway in earnest.

-----------

So this could hopefully begin the chapter of looking for more young, local talent and bringing them up through our own ranks. Anyone who's worked in the set up at crewe, doing the same job, must have a good eye, so fingers crossed this could be a good step in the right direction