Liverpool FC Forum

[Yossi_Benaloon]

Another cultural substitution thing - in Germany they have a tendancy to reserve one player as an 'impact sub' called a joker, who typically comes on around 60 mins. Generally speaking this player enjoys being a sub, and gets as much if not more coverage for the way he plays. Closts thing i can think of in the UK is Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.

[Sir Roger]

I don't think it's as much as a tactical thing as much as a cultural or even personal thing. I think it is a scientific thing, however. If Rafa picks his first 11, then one of the reasons why I think he doesn't change it is because he's so meticulous in his preparation that he becomes stubbourn to a degree and believes that his innitial formula is 100%. To change it before half time would be admiting fault that he's done something wrong. The preparation of Benitez is such that he goes into such detail right down to the science of the fitness of each player. They say it's around the last 15 minutes of a match that fatique sets in most players, but I dare say it varies from player to player. Only Rafa could tell you which players are fitter than others depending on his match philosophy on how he wants the individual to play.
  It should be obvious by now that Rafa has a vision that most players in the team are seen as a part of a machine, his machine, and that he favours efficiency over individuality. Some may argue that he stiffles a player's natural ability in order for them to perform exactly how he wants them to. That's another matter of debate.

I do believe it's purely a fitness thing, though. For a good example, Rafa will not leave a player like Gerrard or Torres on the field of play with 15 minutes to go if they are on a hat-trick and the game is more or less done and dusted already. He doesn't care for personal accolades like that. He will, and has, subbed players in the past in order to keep them fit. I recall that old argument on here a while ago when Gerrard was subbed in the derby because Rafa said that he was tired and replaced him with Lucas.

Good point well made
For me, Rafa over analyses sometimes instead of just saying "get out there and smash them". He is sometimes too cautious, too negative ,and as you say too stubborn to admit his plan isnt working. As Ive said before some could say hes single minded and focused while others say hes got no plan b if it all goes ti'ts up

[Effes]

I recall that old argument on here a while ago when Gerrard was subbed in the derby because Rafa said that he was tired and replaced him with Lucas.

I'm quite sure Rafa subbed Gerrard because he was too passionate... in a derby 

[Owzat]

The problem with substitutions is that they seem pre-determined, not reacting to the match situation. How can Rafa be reacting to what is happening on the pitch if he only makes substitutions after 66+ minutes (more often than not), which is more than 2/3 of the match gone? Does that mean he thinks that is the 'optimum time' to make a change? While I appreciate comments about substitutions a short time after half-time, there is no point waiting until something is not working enough that even RAFA can tell it isn't working, you make changes when they need making. And what is his obsession with the first one being for the wide left player more often than not? Was there anyone who didn't predict the first, have a pretty good guess on the second and probably third as well?

While you need to allow your starting XI and tactics time to work, you also need to react when they're not and give replacements and changed tactics time to work. Maybe the truth is that Rafa was happy with a point and only reacted after they scored, belatedly at that.

[Emerald Red]

I recall that old argument on here a while ago when Gerrard was subbed in the derby because Rafa said that he was tired and replaced him with Lucas.

I'm quite sure Rafa subbed Gerrard because he was too passionate... in a derby 

Na, he deffo said he was tired. Maybe he said that in a press conference or something after or something.

[GYBS]

Emerald in a derby game a couple of season ago Rafa took gerrard off becuase he said he was letting the passion get to him a bit and was diving about a bit and not playing his mormal game so he replaced gerrard with lucas who then won the winning penalty

[Emerald Red]

The problem with substitutions is that they seem pre-determined, not reacting to the match situation. How can Rafa be reacting to what is happening on the pitch if he only makes substitutions after 66+ minutes (more often than not), which is more than 2/3 of the match gone? Does that mean he thinks that is the 'optimum time' to make a change? While I appreciate comments about substitutions a short time after half-time, there is no point waiting until something is not working enough that even RAFA can tell it isn't working, you make changes when they need making. And what is his obsession with the first one being for the wide left player more often than not? Was there anyone who didn't predict the first, have a pretty good guess on the second and probably third as well?

While you need to allow your starting XI and tactics time to work, you also need to react when they're not and give replacements and changed tactics time to work. Maybe the truth is that Rafa was happy with a point and only reacted after they scored, belatedly at that.

Like I said, he's making subs based from his system and how the team plays. If a lot of our play is directed out to the left side due to Rafa's instructions, then it makes sense to change it after a certain time to keep the balance. He looks at the team as a system, as a unit. Not the individual. It's almost as if he's operating like a pit crew, changing tires on a car like clockwork to keep the overall performance of the car running at an optimal rate, the tires being our wide areas as that's where most of the wear and tear during a game is.

[Emerald Red]

Emerald in a derby game a couple of season ago Rafa took gerrard off becuase he said he was letting the passion get to him a bit and was diving about a bit and not playing his mormal game so he replaced gerrard with lucas who then won the winning penalty

It was last season in the cup he said he was tired.

[GYBS]

Emerald in a derby game a couple of season ago Rafa took gerrard off becuase he said he was letting the passion get to him a bit and was diving about a bit and not playing his mormal game so he replaced gerrard with lucas who then won the winning penalty

It was last season in the cup he said he was tired.

Is that when he got injured the next game against them ?

[Owzat]

The problem with substitutions is that they seem pre-determined, not reacting to the match situation. How can Rafa be reacting to what is happening on the pitch if he only makes substitutions after 66+ minutes (more often than not), which is more than 2/3 of the match gone? Does that mean he thinks that is the 'optimum time' to make a change? While I appreciate comments about substitutions a short time after half-time, there is no point waiting until something is not working enough that even RAFA can tell it isn't working, you make changes when they need making. And what is his obsession with the first one being for the wide left player more often than not? Was there anyone who didn't predict the first, have a pretty good guess on the second and probably third as well?

While you need to allow your starting XI and tactics time to work, you also need to react when they're not and give replacements and changed tactics time to work. Maybe the truth is that Rafa was happy with a point and only reacted after they scored, belatedly at that.

Like I said, he's making subs based from his system and how the team plays. If a lot of our play is directed out to the left side due to Rafa's instructions, then it makes sense to change it after a certain time to keep the balance. He looks at the team as a system, as a unit. Not the individual. It's almost as if he's operating like a pit crew, changing tires on a car like clockwork to keep the overall performance of the car running at an optimal rate, the tires being our wide areas as that's where most of the wear and tear during a game is.

So you're claiming that the left-winger will always be the most tired, poorest or in most need of changing EVERY GAME?

Players aren't tyres on F1 cars, they don't have a consistent level of wear and tear, besides which they are usually changed at the point at which the car takes on more fuel and that again is another relatively consistent measure.

What you've said doesn't really counter my point, makes it for me. You need to react to the game situation, not just change A for B at point C in the game, D for E at point F etc If our LM is sooooo bad he needs to be changed first then maybe he shouldn't have been on in the first place, hardly a point that makes Rafa come out in a good light.

Tactics are not like recipes, you can't rigidly follow them and expect pretty much a perfect cake every time. Sometimes a subtle switch of players from one flank to the other, giving a full-back extra cover or some subtle change like that can make the difference, not just LM for LM etc

[Emerald Red]

The problem with substitutions is that they seem pre-determined, not reacting to the match situation. How can Rafa be reacting to what is happening on the pitch if he only makes substitutions after 66+ minutes (more often than not), which is more than 2/3 of the match gone? Does that mean he thinks that is the 'optimum time' to make a change? While I appreciate comments about substitutions a short time after half-time, there is no point waiting until something is not working enough that even RAFA can tell it isn't working, you make changes when they need making. And what is his obsession with the first one being for the wide left player more often than not? Was there anyone who didn't predict the first, have a pretty good guess on the second and probably third as well?

While you need to allow your starting XI and tactics time to work, you also need to react when they're not and give replacements and changed tactics time to work. Maybe the truth is that Rafa was happy with a point and only reacted after they scored, belatedly at that.

Like I said, he's making subs based from his system and how the team plays. If a lot of our play is directed out to the left side due to Rafa's instructions, then it makes sense to change it after a certain time to keep the balance. He looks at the team as a system, as a unit. Not the individual. It's almost as if he's operating like a pit crew, changing tires on a car like clockwork to keep the overall performance of the car running at an optimal rate, the tires being our wide areas as that's where most of the wear and tear during a game is.

So you're claiming that the left-winger will always be the most tired, poorest or in most need of changing EVERY GAME?

Players aren't tyres on F1 cars, they don't have a consistent level of wear and tear, besides which they are usually changed at the point at which the car takes on more fuel and that again is another relatively consistent measure.

What you've said doesn't really counter my point, makes it for me. You need to react to the game situation, not just change A for B at point C in the game, D for E at point F etc If our LM is sooooo bad he needs to be changed first then maybe he shouldn't have been on in the first place, hardly a point that makes Rafa come out in a good light.

Tactics are not like recipes, you can't rigidly follow them and expect pretty much a perfect cake every time. Sometimes a subtle switch of players from one flank to the other, giving a full-back extra cover or some subtle change like that can make the difference, not just LM for LM etc

I'm not claiming anything. This thread has everything to do with speculation as to why Benitez makes subs or thinks the way he does. Nobody on this board is qualified to even manage a Sunday league team, nevermind a top EPL side, so to even debate something like this as if it were fact is daft. You can, however, try to give a personal theory on it, no matter how bollox it sounds. And yeah, I'd say wide areas on the pitch are the most physically demanding according to certain systems of play. If you can't sprint the full distance of a football pitch twice in succession, then you might as well not be a full-back.

In any case, there is only one instance I can remember Rafa ever making a sub to change things at half time, and you know what that is. We were losing 3-0. When's the last time we were losing 3-0 at half time?

[Rush Job]

be interesting if maureen manages in spain in the future then.

at chelsea i remember him making a double change after 25 minutes in one game. 

Yep I have seen him doing subs at first half. No surprise, he's more temperamental than Rafa, and he likes blaming the players more than Rafa. We all know that. Don't we. (  )

Yeah and we also know that he has been far more successful than Rafa.

I think the main reason that Rafa doesn't make subs before the 65th minute is because he looks at the bench and thinks, like most of us do, that there is simply no bloody point, none of the subs are likely to do much better than the under performing player on the field.

Oh yeah and there is that stubborn arrogance thing as well. For example against Fiorentina it was blindingly obvious that we were getting murdered in CM but because Rafa for some bizarre reason chose to start with Stevie at AM again and then play Aurelio as CM  he chose to blame it all on the players instead of himself and refused to change the formation. This is what infuriates me with Rafa, the complete inflexibility and lack of a plan B, plus the fact that every now and then plan A is complete garbage like on Tuesday.

Rafa is a great coach but I'm still to be convinced that he is a great manager.

How do you know he is a great coach?
Why does he have to be great anyway, would you sack him because he`s not great enough? 

[lakes10]

It is very strange the way he makes subs and i have heard even stranger things about why he only makes them after 60min.

some of the ideas that i have heard (most on TV )

to do wil luck

subs before 60 mins shows that you think your team is not as good as the others

players will play their best in the 2nd half during the first 15mins, if they have not got better take them off.(ian Rush)


anyway they are some of the best ones i have heard, for me i think he just stubborn and feels

he knows best and if he picked the team its right.

[Sir Roger]

Masherano (72)
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Didnt work, did it...?