Liverpool FC Forum

[Dazzer]

My own view is that by restricting substitutions to 60mins and over it gives the opposition an advantage as knowledge is power and if you know when opposition changes are going to be made you can act or react accordingly.

Secondly it is obviously a great advantage to make important changes at half time as you can explain to the players just how the change is going to affect each player, and rather than the sub spending 5mins running round explaining to the rest of the team just what role he will be playing and how their role may have changed, it can all be sorted in the dressing room. 

My own criticism is that not only does he often wait too long before making his subs when we are chasing the game, but that often he changes like for like rather than making a more bold statement by exchanging a defender for a midfield player or throwing on an extra striker. Admittedly with the quality of Liverpools bench this hasn't been as great a problem this season!

I do think that when things are obviously not working an early change would be welcome and might make the difference between getting a result and coming away with nothing.

Agreed and also fact that he always does it around same time is playing to a pattern and is easy to counter if he made a change at half time the other manager wouldn't have any time to responed and he be able to effect the game for a 5-10 min time once game restarts.

I am not saying never wait to 60-70 mins just if you 2-0 down and the players are not doing a good job change it ffs.

Look at CL final 2005 he made a change at half time and in that 20 min time frame after the change we really turned the game on its head but did rafa learn from that like feck he did.

There is having trust in your players then there is not knowing when they are not going to play to form.

[kazza]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

[bigmick]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

I'm not sure I understand what point you're making to be honest. People are talking about Rafa over a five year period visa vis his substitutions, Sabre started the thread and alluded to the feeling that in Spain it's very rare for anyone to substited before the hour mark.

And because Ferguson didn't make a substitution before 70 minutes in one match, I'm not sure what it proves to be perfectly honest. I'm not having a go, I just don't get your point.

They went in at half time 1-0 down, equalised within five minutes of the second half starting and were on top. Sunderland scored again and he gave the players 10 minutes to pull it back, when they didn't he made subs. I don't really see how it compares to a situation in a Champions League match where you play as bad as we did and then go into half time 2-0 down.

See I totally understand anyones feeling that the manager is doing the subs correctly, there isn't a problem with the timing and all that. No problem with any of that (I don't agree he is right all the time but no matter) I just don't see that what Ferguson did in this one game is relevent to the discussion.

FWIW I think he fecked up (Ferguson) and should have changed it earlier as the midfield two were awful. He did change it in there in the end and brought them both off, and I guess you could even argue it worked as Carrick made the tackle which prevented Kenwyn Jones making it 3-1, and contributed to the equaliser. I'll bet he wishes he had changed it earlier though, and probably wishes he'd picked a stronger team too I should think.

Also it's worth pointing out that they are in the same boat as us in that the bench isn't very strong. Given that, it makes it all the more important you pick close to the right team in the first place.

[Sir Roger]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

Hmmm
I think youll find scholes came off at half time for anderson and the mancs ended up drawing 2-2

[bigmick]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

Hmmm
I think youll find scholes came off at half time for anderson and the mancs ended up drawing 2-2

That means his original statement was b0ll0cks, and even worse, so was my answer to it  Despite that fact though , I still don't think what ferguson did in one match is massively relevent to a discussion over five and a bit seasons of Rafa's tenure.

[Sir Roger]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

Hmmm
I think youll find scholes came off at half time for anderson and the mancs ended up drawing 2-2

That means his original statement was b0ll0cks, and even worse, so was my answer to it  Despite that fact though , I still don't think what ferguson did in one match is massively relevent to a discussion over five and a bit seasons of Rafa's tenure.

Good that you admitted it

I try not to give much of my attention to those manc tw@ts but I do know that purple hooter will make subs whenever he feels like and however many players he wants to.
If hes admitting failure he doesnt seem ars'ed to me

[Sabre]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

Hmmm
I think youll find scholes came off at half time for anderson and the mancs ended up drawing 2-2

Can you confirm aswell that the substitution was not based on an injury? (I didn't see anything of the game)

[dawson99]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

Hmmm
I think youll find scholes came off at half time for anderson and the mancs ended up drawing 2-2

Can you confirm aswell that the substitution was not based on an injury? (I didn't see anything of the game)

substitution was made as changes were needed. why wait 60 minutes when it hasnt been working from minute 1 stupid if u ask me

changes are needed sometimes earlier than others

[songxiaoz]

hey,hey,I am watching the match between chelsea and us.
hey,hey,Torres!!!

[songxiaoz]

A O

[kazza]

Yesterday Fergie made subs on 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1.

Hmmm
I think youll find scholes came off at half time for anderson and the mancs ended up drawing 2-2

That means his original statement was b0ll0cks, and even worse, so was my answer to it  Despite that fact though , I still don't think what ferguson did in one match is massively relevent to a discussion over five and a bit seasons of Rafa's tenure.

Actually not b0llox as he did make substitutions at 70 minutes and they were losing 2-1. However I did not actually see the first part of the match so was unaware that Anderson came on at half time. (so now it is b0llox   ) My reply was more for the fact that Fergie subs at 70 minute mark many times so other successful prem managers do do it.  I seem to remember he made substitutions in his 1999 CL victory around the 80 minute mark (sure hope my memory is holding up as I cannot be bothered to double check) and they were losing and looked out of it.

My take on it is you set the team out how you think, barring injury or a serious tactical mistake you do not change the team by half time. If things are not going well you give them the "hairdryer" at half time and try to address any tactical changes that are needed. Second half you have to wait to see if things are going to change and your actions at half time had an effect, and that normally takes about 20 minutes and by then if it does improve then you make changes. I would say that that is standard coaching protocol.

[bigmick]

To be honest I think more significant than the substitutions (particularly as he made one at half time in any case) was the initial team he put out. I haven't seen a football team look so disjointed, lacking in rhythm, cohesion and tempo for a long time. There was very little pattern to their play, and the players looked frustrated as all their best intentions came to nothing, seemingly regardless of how hard they tried. Like I say, it's been quite a while since I've seen a football team look so ineffective.

Just as a footnote, Manchester United made seven changes from the team which played in midweek.

[The_Rock]

To put it bluntly....we gotta live with it. Benitez won't change...... So if we don't have any injuries and no matter what the score is, expect a sub on the hour.

That's how it is under benitez ............... If u think he is the best d@mn manager we can get, then live with it.

If u don't....well that is another thread....

[Sir Roger]

To put it bluntly....we gotta live with it. Benitez won't change...... So if we don't have any injuries and no matter what the score is, expect a sub on the hour.

That's how it is under benitez ............... If u think he is the best d@mn manager we can get, then live with it.

If u don't....well that is another thread....

I agree
He is what he is whether we like it or not

[Emerald Red]

I don't think it's as much as a tactical thing as much as a cultural or even personal thing. I think it is a scientific thing, however. If Rafa picks his first 11, then one of the reasons why I think he doesn't change it is because he's so meticulous in his preparation that he becomes stubbourn to a degree and believes that his innitial formula is 100%. To change it before half time would be admiting fault that he's done something wrong. The preparation of Benitez is such that he goes into such detail right down to the science of the fitness of each player. They say it's around the last 15 minutes of a match that fatique sets in most players, but I dare say it varies from player to player. Only Rafa could tell you which players are fitter than others depending on his match philosophy on how he wants the individual to play.
  It should be obvious by now that Rafa has a vision that most players in the team are seen as a part of a machine, his machine, and that he favours efficiency over individuality. Some may argue that he stiffles a player's natural ability in order for them to perform exactly how he wants them to. That's another matter of debate.

I do believe it's purely a fitness thing, though. For a good example, Rafa will not leave a player like Gerrard or Torres on the field of play with 15 minutes to go if they are on a hat-trick and the game is more or less done and dusted already. He doesn't care for personal accolades like that. He will, and has, subbed players in the past in order to keep them fit. I recall that old argument on here a while ago when Gerrard was subbed in the derby because Rafa said that he was tired and replaced him with Lucas.