Rafa you can be the master of greatness - But also the master of our downfall

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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:11 am

Let me tell you this, as recently I have been accused by a certain member of this forum, I take pleasure in proving Rafa's methods wrong. I f.ucking dont ! I dont take pleasure I get fecking angry by it and the accusations.

One other thing before I get down to it, Bob if you feel the need to close this thread and merge it "because you feel I want my name up in lights" then do it.

Leon give me a card ya big fairy if you feel I'm going against the grain of "lemmings"


Isnt it Rafa's philosophy in football taking 'one game at a time', or did my ears decieve me on numerous occassions ?

We didnt win that game because IMHO Rafa showed NO respect to Reading. Fair enough, he started with Hobbs that is understandable as Hyypia will need resting more than other players. And although most if not all managers in Rafa's position would of had one eye on the Marseille game, its seemed obvious to me that Rafa had both eyes on the Champions league game.

We also lost that game due to some poor refereing, make no bones about that. Apparently though in the penalty incident that lead to Readings goal, the rules state that even though the foul is made outside the box, and it carries on through into the area then it is deemed a penalty. No qualms there really if they are the rules, Carragher was clumsbey and was lucky enough not to get carded for it. We though on the other hand should of of had at least two penalties, yet another inconsistent performance by the man in black.  :no

For me, and who many lemmings will disagree with. Rafa not in the first time in his career gave little or n respect to a resolute Reading side. I hear you all say 'Where's Bamagas rants been, since rotation has brought us a great run while playing some lovely football?'

'He's just waiting for us to slip up, to post something like this'
That isnt the case guys, I could see us in the form we've been in beating Reading with some sensible tinkering. I'm not convinced rotation will work but I am willing to see it prove me wrong throughout the season, even though seasons gone by it quite simply hasnt worked.
I've kept my mouth shut, happy were winning and playing through methods I'm not a fan of. So what 'pro's' is it a "blip in form?" 'And off day at the office' what is it ?

Like I said I'd be happy if Rafa tinkers and we'd win and find some real consistency :D But sometimes he comes up with some absurd team selections, leaving me red rashed on my head figuring out why.

Midfield is obviously where it went wrong today, the man who lives and breathes football and studies every molecule of a team. Surely recognise's Steve Coppells teams love playing with width.

Yet, and no disrespect to Momo who I thought had a decent game and one that was due in a while. Gets picked probably because of the fact he hasnt played 90 minutes for a while, more than the fact we have Marseille on Tuesday, because he probably wont be in the starting eleven come Tuesday. That decision imo was simply down to rotation, and yes rotating for the sake of it, because Gerrard still started, so he wasnt being rested while Momo filled in he wasnt putting his feet up for the game against Marseille.

gerrard still played, and what fecking position he played I do not know. He did have a decent game tbf. But on the subject of rotation, and with selections like this 'the what is Gerrards best position comes into it'. 'Oh he's much better in the "free-role" ,feck off guys. Maybe for him you might think thats best , as he scores MORE goals from that position. But he was doing well with 8 goals previous in his last nine games. The likes of Lando and Big Mick may feel that this "free-role" is actually better for the player himself. While for me its not for the good of the team, the midfield was SHAPLESS and NARROW yesterday, we had no width, we couldnt stretch Reading like they were doing to us. Gerrard goes central, drifting into his natural postion who we already have Mascha and Momo. No width its gone instantly, same with Vorornin. Why the f.uck was he picked ahead of Kewell and Babel?

I'm expecting both (Babel & Kewell) of them to start in France on Tuesday, thats the only conclusion I can come up with. I think we all can see that Vorronin is even more ineffective in midfield than he is in attack. Again a player who was reluctant to go past a full back and take the ball out wide, he cut inside again offering us no width. No real ammuntion for Crouch or Torres to feed off.

While I feel some of the usual suspects were off the top of their game, Carra and even Reina, Rafa's selection undone us again. Even when REading went 2-1 up he hauled our best striker off WTF. Was he settling for 2-1, he was only thinking about marseille, and also when subbing Gerrard off he was only thinking about the French team.
:no
Seeing those two come off would of boosted Reading's confidence of seeing out the game.

Their were a host of reasons why we lost yesterday, I've already mentuioned but in there somewhere the question marks over Rafa's selections and players p[ostions are even more highlighted during a loss like this. IMO he didnt give Coppell and his men the respect they deserved, and again has been the string puller to our downfall.
Last edited by 66-1112520797 on Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bigmick » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:34 am

Its an interesting take mate but I suspect you will get the accusation that you've been "waiting for a bad result" to get this stuff off your chest. It goes with the territory I'm afraid. Similarly, if your anti rotation "rafa-style" then you are potentially "fickle" and it doesn't really matter if you've been on about it for three seasons. I did see the comment you are referring to but in the overall scheme of things I'd let it pass.

FWIW I thought we were more than a touch unlucky in that we didn't get a single scrap of an even break in the game. You get that sometimes, which is precisely why you go all out for the win at places like Portsmouth, Blackburn etc etc because it gives you some insurance against the odd freak result. It's done now anyway, and while I didn't agree with the tactics or the shape of the team I didn't think it was another Portsmouth or Sheffield United either.

Do or die is fast approaching though as far as the whole debate about rotation "Rafa style" is concerned. The much vaunted freshness which we have been aiming for all season is going to be very much needed over the next couple of weeks or we could be in fairly deep sh!te to tell the truth. I've absolutely no idea whether resting the likes of Torres in two consecutive League matches a couple of months back is supposed to kick-in, freshness wise around about now but it'll need to, otherwise we run the risk of having the freshest bunch of players who don't qualify for the Champions League in history.

I was looking at the table earlier, and I notice that we are level on points with Man City after fifteen games, fortunately our superior goal difference has us sitting proudly above them. Now I'm not saying that we won't finish above Man City because of course we will, but it does kind of ask the question, aren't we better than that? Make no mistake about it, if we were to lose at Home to Man Utd, then a deficit between ourselves and the League winners not a million miles away from last seasons twenty one points is looking ont he cards. Like I've been saying for the last few weeks, we'll see.
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:47 am

After the support the fans showed Rafa, I think these statements posted on the official website, are in a sense a betrayal:

The Reds manager also defended his decision to substitute both Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard, admitting that with the Reds trailing late in the match, his thoughts had switched towards the key Champions League clash with Marseille on Tuesday.
 
"We were losing 3-1 and so I was trying to protect the key players for the next game," he said.
 
"We had quality on the bench and we tried to change things with different players who had pace.
 
"It is an important week for us now and we have the Champions League match to look forward to. We must approach it with confidence and try to win.
 
"Only then can we think about Manchester United because you know my idea is to take one game at a time. The target is now Marseille."


To take off two of our best players with twenty minutes of a match, where a point was still a possibility, in order to prepare for a match three days later is shocking IMO.
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Postby Ciggy » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:06 am

Manhatten Torres got injured and Gerrard took a knock he had an ice pack on his hip.

Rafa picked the wrong team as Crouch and Voronin gave us no width what so ever.

But if you think about it now after the fact his job depends on it on tuesday a loss in France could end up with him being sacked.
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Postby ivor_the_injun » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:33 am

I don't think for a second that Rafa's job is on the line in Marseille.

I do, however, think that the result may well dictate his transfer budget for the new year, and with it the future of Mascherano.

Back on Reading though, Rafa brought on Kewell and Babel, and regardless of who they replace, they are two strong players to come on late in the game, more than capable of bringing a goal or two to any meeting.

The issue with some of our fans today though seems to be that he brought off Torres and Gerrard, as if he simply can't do that. Just like when he hauled Gerrard off against Everton - the backlash to that decision is pretty unbelievable. Even if he didn't have a slight injury, I'm actually glad we have a manager that's willing to show he's big enough to take those kind of decisions. Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to see the lack of urgency in our side yesterday, but at the end of the day Rafa has a squad to manage, and if we beat Marseille and the Mancs this week, the Reading game may wwll be looked back on as a minor blip in the larger scheme of things.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:42 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:I don't think for a second that Rafa's job is on the line in Marseille.

I do, however, think that the result may well dictate his transfer budget for the new year, and with it the future of Mascherano.

Back on Reading though, Rafa brought on Kewell and Babel, and regardless of who they replace, they are two strong players to come on late in the game, more than capable of bringing a goal or two to any meeting.

The issue with some of our fans today though seems to be that he brought off Torres and Gerrard, as if he simply can't do that. Just like when he hauled Gerrard off against Everton - the backlash to that decision is pretty unbelievable. Even if he didn't have a slight injury, I'm actually glad we have a manager that's willing to show he's big enough to take those kind of decisions. Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to see the lack of urgency in our side yesterday, but at the end of the day Rafa has a squad to manage, and if we beat Marseille and the Mancs this week, the Reading game may wwll be looked back on as a minor blip in the larger scheme of things.

See Manhattens quote.  :glare:
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Postby el_stinger » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:52 am

Riise and Sissoko has shown that our club has no depth. We should get rid asap.
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Postby ConnO'var » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:30 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Let me tell you this, as recently I have been accused by a certain member of this forum, I take pleasure in proving Rafa's methods wrong. I f.ucking dont ! I dont take pleasure I get fecking angry by it and the accusations.

One other thing before I get down to it, Bob if you feel the need to close this thread and merge it "because you feel I want my name up in lights" then do it.

Leon give me a card ya big fairy if you feel I'm going against the grain of "lemmings"


Isnt it Rafa's philosophy in football taking 'one game at a time', or did my ears decieve me on numerous occassions ?

We didnt win that game because IMHO Rafa showed NO respect to Reading. Fair enough, he started with Hobbs that is understandable as Hyypia will need resting more than other players. And although most if not all managers in Rafa's position would of had one eye on the Marseille game, its seemed obvious to me that Rafa had both eyes on the Champions league game.

We also lost that game due to some poor refereing, make no bones about that. Apparently though in the penalty incident that lead to Readings goal, the rules state that even though the foul is made outside the box, and it carries on through into the area then it is deemed a penalty. No qualms there really if they are the rules, Carragher was clumsbey and was lucky enough not to get carded for it. We though on the other hand should of of had at least two penalties, yet another inconsistent performance by the man in black.  :no

For me, and who many lemmings will disagree with. Rafa not in the first time in his career gave little or n respect to a resolute Reading side. I hear you all say 'Where's Bamagas rants been, since rotation has brought us a great run while playing some lovely football?'

'He's just waiting for us to slip up, to post something like this'
That isnt the case guys, I could see us in the form we've been in beating Reading with some sensible tinkering. I'm not convinced rotation will work but I am willing to see it prove me wrong throughout the season, even though seasons gone by it quite simply hasnt worked.
I've kept my mouth shut, happy were winning and playing through methods I'm not a fan of. So what 'pro's' is it a "blip in form?" 'And off day at the office' what is it ?

Like I said I'd be happy if Rafa tinkers and we'd win and find some real consistency :D But sometimes he comes up with some absurd team selections, leaving me red rashed on my head figuring out why.

Midfield is obviously where it went wrong today, the man who lives and breathes football and studies every molecule of a team. Surely recognise's Steve Coppells teams love playing with width.

Yet, and no disrespect to Momo who I thought had a decent game and one that was due in a while. Gets picked probably because of the fact he hasnt played 90 minutes for a while, more than the fact we have Marseille on Tuesday, because he probably wont be in the starting eleven come Tuesday. That decision imo was simply down to rotation, and yes rotating for the sake of it, because Gerrard still started, so he wasnt being rested while Momo filled in he wasnt putting his feet up for the game against Marseille.

gerrard still played, and what fecking position he played I do not know. He did have a decent game tbf. But on the subject of rotation, and with selections like this 'the what is Gerrards best position comes into it'. 'Oh he's much better in the "free-role" ,feck off guys. Maybe for him you might think thats best , as he scores MORE goals from that position. But he was doing well with 8 goals previous in his last nine games. The likes of Lando and Big Mick may feel that this "free-role" is actually better for the player himself. While for me its not for the good of the team, the midfield was SHAPLESS and NARROW yesterday, we had no width, we couldnt stretch Reading like they were doing to us. Gerrard goes central, drifting into his natural postion who we already have Mascha and Momo. No width its gone instantly, same with Vorornin. Why the f.uck was he picked ahead of Kewell and Babel?

I'm expecting both (Babel & Kewell) of them to start in France on Tuesday, thats the only conclusion I can come up with. I think we all can see that Vorronin is even more ineffective in midfield than he is in attack. Again a player who was reluctant to go past a full back and take the ball out wide, he cut inside again offering us no width. No real ammuntion for Crouch or Torres to feed off.

While I feel some of the usual suspects were off the top of their game, Carra and even Reina, Rafa's selection undone us again. Even when REading went 2-1 up he hauled our best striker off WTF. Was he settling for 2-1, he was only thinking about marseille, and also when subbing Gerrard off he was only thinking about the French team.
:no
Seeing those two come off would of boosted Reading's confidence of seeing out the game.

Their were a host of reasons why we lost yesterday, I've already mentuioned but in there somewhere the question marks over Rafa's selections and players p[ostions are even more highlighted during a loss like this. IMO he didnt give Coppell and his men the respect they deserved, and again has been the string puller to our downfall.

Good post mate.....

Agree with most if not all of it.

:nod
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:31 pm

:D  Stinger sort your sig out.
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Postby Lucky » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:21 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:The issue with some of our fans today though seems to be that he brought off Torres and Gerrard, as if he simply can't do that. Just like when he hauled Gerrard off against Everton - the backlash to that decision is pretty unbelievable. Even if he didn't have a slight injury, I'm actually glad we have a manager that's willing to show he's big enough to take those kind of decisions. Don't get me wrong, I was disappointed to see the lack of urgency in our side yesterday, but at the end of the day Rafa has a squad to manage, and if we beat Marseille and the Mancs this week, the Reading game may wwll be looked back on as a minor blip in the larger scheme of things.

The issue is not that he cannot take Torres and Gerrard off, but in what kind of situation he did that.

In the Everton game when we desperately needed a win and Gerrard seemed our biggest threat at that moment, he took him down. It seemed to me that he had one eye on the incoming Besiktas game and was already willing to accept a draw (I don't suppose he actually expected young Lucas would get us a late penalty when he brought him on for Gerrard?). No wonder most of us were pis sed off by that decision.

And in the Reading game, when we needed score goals to come back, he took both our match-winners off to protect them for the next game? Again? Even when there were more than twenty minutes left to play and he'd already given up?

Now he'd better make a good plan to beat Marseille which will comfort us a little bit for the Reading lost. And even if we beat Man United next Sunday, the pain for a lost like this will still haunt. At the end of the season if things didn't go our way you'll find it is the points you dropped against teams like Reading that cost our title challenge.
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Postby ivor_the_injun » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:35 pm

I'm not denying that the substitutions were over-cautious, particularly given the situation at the time, but I think it's disrespectful to Kewell and Babel to suggest that they were just bodies being put out there to see out the 90 minutes.

Kewell, for me, is a first 11 player every game when fit. Babel too has shown he can impact on a game, and wouldn't have been a controversial choice had he started on the right yesterday.

If Rafa had made those substitutions, and - say - Kewell's shot from the left had gone in, and Babel was on hand to follow up on a luckier bounce off the post from Crouch's shot, this forum would be a completely different place today.

For me the problems yesterday came as a result of the formation we started with, and after their second goal went in the game had the look of one of *those* days when nothing goes right for you. Yes, some of Rafa's quotes are a bit eyebrow-raising, as you don't want to think of your manager giving up on a league game, but the 11 we finished the game with were more than capable of getting 2 goals against Reading.
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Postby neil » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:57 pm

el_stinger wrote:Riise and Sissoko has shown that our club has no depth. We should get rid asap.

qft!
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Postby ivor_the_injun » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:05 pm

At their best, they're more than good enough for the club. They're just nowhere near their best right now.
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Postby The_Rock » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:40 pm

If we lose against marseille then what does the subbing of gerrard and torres stand for ? I mean does these subs guarantee a win against marseille ?

I hope to god we win....else this season will be another write off.
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Postby sgs » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:40 pm

The problem with the Rafa critics here is not that they are waiting for things to go wrong. No sir! Its that they lack consistency. We know for a fact that rotation is a primary strategy of Rafa. When things go right, u cannot on one hand claim 'he got away with it' and then come back and lambast him for rotation when things go wrong. As Rafa himself says, in this game you have to use your head sometimes.

Whenever Liverpool gets a bad result the usual refrain is- 'there goes the season'. I never heard anyone say that when ManU was struggling or after they lost to Bolton. Arsenal has now gone and lost to Boro. Is this then the beginning of the end of their season...

I started supporting 'Pool from high school back in Nigeria in the late 70s. Courtesy of the internet I am able to get a good feel of what other fans are like, even while based in the States. But with the fickle nature of some folks here, I sometimes truly regret that I am able to share this space. Its one thing to be passionate. But passion is no excuse for a lack of thinking (apologies to all Ricky Hatton fans)!

Rafa says this season will be different from any other; that all the top tier teams will drop points. Thus the games between them will take added significance. I believe the man. Nobody will run away with it by January; and we are still in it...

You can of course choose to believe or disbelieve. But in each case the least u can do is use your head, show consistency in your thought process. Football may be a sport, but its not for the dumb!
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