Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

I wouldn't advocate anything too radical at this point, TBH.  We're out of the title race for certain and I think we are a little short of the required quality to truly have a go at it but that doesn't mean we don't have the bones of a very, very good team.  There's no point throwing the baby out with the bath water and going for radical surgery.

What does that mean?  Well, it means we stick to the game plan, which is winning as many league games as possible while also progressing as far as we can in both remaining cups.  That will mean sensible rotation (Alonso for Mascherano, say, or Benayoun for Pennant) rather than "playing the kids" or getting all experimental with our squad.  Our aim must be a top four finish and some silverware come May and both are still very much achievable.

When it comes to transfers, I'd like to see a CB now but wait until summer for the rest.  Unless a truly top class wide player or striker becomes available, we should focus on getting some defensive cover and reevaluate things in May.  By then, we'll know better how Lucas and Babel fit.  We'll have a sense of where things stand with Kewell and we'll have a sense of which of the 3 strikers might fetch us the most money on the market.  I hope we can tie up a permanent deal for Mascherano, as he's far too good to lose, whoever else we have in that position.  I also hope that we don't go overboard with the selling of players now.  If their demand is high and we'll get a good return, by all means sell Sissoko or Riise or Carson.  But, if the market is sluggish, hold onto them until the summer and then really flog them.

As for Rafa, I think that he should most certainly be given one more season because the signs of a really fantastic team are there.  I think a few more additions to the first team, like Torres, and we are very much in business.  If we get rid, I worry that there will be a lot of upheaval and even some key players leaving.  We're not that far away so let's stay the course and be patient.

My last comment is on rotation.  Mick asked whether playing our best players in earlier matches would have seen us closer to the top at this point.  Maybe it would have and maybe it wouldn't have, I don't know.  But I think these last two games are the bookends to the Portsmouth and Birmingham games earlier in the season.  We've heard a lot of people say in the wake of those two early draws that Rafa's rotating--particularly the resting of Torres--cost us the best chance at winning those two games.  Maybe that's true.  But our draw at City and our draw tonight do serve to highlight that, even when our best players are on the pitch, we still sometimes lack the quality to turn draws into wins.  To me, that suggests that the rotation debate is still very much up in the air.  At the very least, it suggests that we should no longer read quite so much into the team selections associated with those early draws.

Bottom line.  We're a very good team that is not yet a proper title contender.  Let's keep the faith and keep building on what we have rather than starting over yet again.

[112-1077774096]

we could be a very good team with a different manager

[NANNY RED]

I know were im going. Im going to carry on supportin our manager and our team like every red should. Listen to the words of our song thats what its all about end of

[holylamb2006]

Bottom line.  We're a very good team that is not yet a proper title contender.  Let's keep the faith and keep building on what we have rather than starting over yet again

     Keep the faith

[The_Rock]

We will win the Champions league now wana bet 

Yes, yes, we will win it.........this year.

We have at least won something in rafa's tenure here. so its a toss up between fa cup and champ league....

1)2005 - champ league
2)2006 - fa cup
3)2007 - charity shield
4)2008 - champ league or fa cup

[The_Rock]

Hey....whats up Why is peewee banned ?

[66-1112520797]

But our draw at City and our draw tonight do serve to highlight that, even when our best players are on the pitch, we still sometimes lack the quality to turn draws into wins.  To me, that suggests that the rotation debate is still very much up in the air.  At the very least, it suggests that we should no longer read quite so much into the team selections associated with those early draws.

Still clutching at straws, surely even the most blinkered fool can see now "rafa stylie rotating" wont win LFC the league.

[bigmick]

Yes I must admit I think that's a wee bit of a straw clutch as well Bob TBPH. While we were resting Torres against Pompey and Birmingham and derailing ourselves, we were assured by the pro's that come the end of the season, the delayed gazelle effect and the freshness would carry us through. While Man Utd, Chelsea and particularly Arsenal with their "stuck in the nineties" selection methods would be treading water, our blokes would be sharp as a tack and hammering all before them.

It was utter nonsense of course at the time and it still is. The folly of resting players after five games in the hope or belief that the bench time will carry forward to a fixture six months hence seemed daft at the time and still does. The really ironic thing about the whole situation os of course that both Torres and Gerrard now look like they desperately need a rest, but the reality is that since practically every single game we played in was a cast-iron MUST WIN showdown, we couldn't afford to rest them when we most needed to. We were reduced to the reverse rotation situation of actually taking them off in games in which we were adjudged to have already lost (Reading Away) or games where we prematurely decided to settle for a point (Everton Away, I never bought any of that "playing with the hearts" nonsense). The reality is that we got ourselves into an awful muddle with our team selection policy, and quite simply it is an experiment which I hope is never repeated regardless of who is the manager next season.

[The_Rock]

This is seriously mirroring houllier's last season.....

Diouf = Babel ...    (sorry had to throw that one in...as i don't really rate babel)....

For rafa's sake....hope he wins either the FA cup or Champions League....

[Bad Bob]

Yes I must admit I think that's a wee bit of a straw clutch as well Bob TBPH. While we were resting Torres against Pompey and Birmingham and derailing ourselves, we were assured by the pro's that come the end of the season, the delayed gazelle effect and the freshness would carry us through. While Man Utd, Chelsea and particularly Arsenal with their "stuck in the nineties" selection methods would be treading water, our blokes would be sharp as a tack and hammering all before them.

It was utter nonsense of course at the time and it still is. The folly of resting players after five games in the hope or belief that the bench time will carry forward to a fixture six months hence seemed daft at the time and still does. The really ironic thing about the whole situation os of course that both Torres and Gerrard now look like they desperately need a rest, but the reality is that since practically every single game we played in was a cast-iron MUST WIN showdown, we couldn't afford to rest them when we most needed to. We were reduced to the reverse rotation situation of actually taking them off in games in which we were adjudged to have already lost (Reading Away) or games where we prematurely decided to settle for a point (Everton Away, I never bought any of that "playing with the hearts" nonsense). The reality is that we got ourselves into an awful muddle with our team selection policy, and quite simply it is an experiment which I hope is never repeated regardless of who is the manager next season.

Well, I'm fairly certain this "delayed gazelle" thing wasn't anything I'd advocated but that wasn't my point anyway.  My point was this notion that resting Torres against Portsmouth and Birmingham "derailed" us was a theory premised on the notion that, had he played in those games, we would have won instead of drawn.  Since it has been shown in the last week that we are still more than capable of drawing tough away matches to top-of-table teams (Man City) or even home matches to relegation fodder (Wigan) with Torres in the team (and Gerrard, and Kewell even), I guess you said I'm even more skeptical of this "derailed by team selection" argument than I ever was. 

If you look at our results this season so far you'll see that we've had patches where we score for fun and patches where we can't buy a goal.  Unfotunately for the antis, I can't detect any meaningful correlation between those patches and alterations to Rafa's rotation policy, meaning that we've scored for fun at times whilst rotating heavily and we've also struggled to score even when picking a settled side.  I'm afraid, my friends, that the rotation issue is still very much open to debate but that, of course, may be a discussion for the other thread.

[account deleted by request]

But our draw at City and our draw tonight do serve to highlight that, even when our best players are on the pitch, we still sometimes lack the quality to turn draws into wins.  To me, that suggests that the rotation debate is still very much up in the air.  At the very least, it suggests that we should no longer read quite so much into the team selections associated with those early draws.

Still clutching at straws, surely even the most blinkered fool can see now "rafa stylie rotating" wont win LFC the league.

To be honest I don't think its anything to do with rotation Bamaga, at least not of players, but when he changes our formation we never seem to do very well.

I know a lot of people like the lone striker, especially as we have a distinct lack of a decent partner for Torres, but I hate it. We always let our striker become isolated when we play one up,and then the only way he can receive the ball is by running away from the goals towards the wings.

Gerrard and Alonso semed to get in each others way more than link up in midfield, and Gerrard played way to deep. While Mascherano didn't seem to know what was expected of him so just went about tackling anything that moved including Kewell. In other words it was a total mess in midfield.

Pennant and Kewell both had poor games, but to be fair to Pennant it was his first game back, but I still think he takes the easy way out every time by just throwing the ball into the box rather than getting to the deadball line before crossing.

Having said all that, we still did enough to win, but we just don't have enough matchwinners in the team. How many times are we going to have to suffer games like this before we get more players that can score.

I thought Rafa picked a strong team tonight but the wrong formation. Especially as he played Torres, who we all know can't play between the lines or against a team that defends deep.(funnily enough he managed to grab a goal)

I just hope we abandon all these "clever" formations, stick to 4-4-2 and win a cup.

I will give Rafa till the end of the season before making my judgement, but I wonder if G&H will?

[Seano Kop]

play the kids i say 

nothing to lose now, we are out of the title race lets have some fun

We still want to finish in a champions league position though.... and 3rd is still possible due to the african cup of nations.

[bigmick]

Well, I'm fairly certain this "delayed gazelle" thing wasn't anything I'd advocated but that wasn't my point anyway.  My point was this notion that resting Torres against Portsmouth and Birmingham "derailed" us was a theory premised on the notion that, had he played in those games, we would have won instead of drawn. 

No, you're right it belongs in another thread so I'll make this my last word on the subject on here. The theory about the derailment being caused by resting Torres, based on the premise that we would have won the game had he played is incorrect. Clearly he doesn't score in, and we don't win every game in which he and/or Gerrard or anybody else plays in.

I would venture though that we would have had more chance of winning those two games had he and Gerrard played in the first, and Torres the second.

Surely everybody would accept that we have more chance of winning any game if Torres starts in front of say, Voronin? Doesn't mean we will win it, but it does mean we have more chance of winning it surely. Now obviously Torres can't start in every game, but resting him after only a couple of matches on the grounds that he would be fresher months later was silly.

There's no question in my mind that we made grave errors at the start of the season with our "Rafa style". Despite the manager belatedly realising this and getting sensible, alas it has been too late. Whether or not we're good enough anyway is a moot point, but we're definately not good enough to leave our best players on the bench in the first couple of months of the season and still maintain a challenge, that's for sure.

[66-1112520797]

To be honest I don't think its anything to do with rotation Bamaga,

Saint I'm generalising over the whole season, and even the one before. Where Rafa rotated and we found out then it isnt the answer to winning the Premiership. As for recent results though, I do NOT hold the manager responsible weird how it may sound Ithink recently the players themselves have let Rafa and us down not the other way round.

But that doesnt mean to say Rafa isnt to blame for our season, like I think his downfall has been rotation IMO, the players downfall has been not killing teams off and their mentality, they dont have the winning mentality for the title, and that may include Rafa aswell.

Whether or not we're good enough anyway is a moot point, but we're definately not good enough to leave our best players on the bench in the first couple of months of the season and still maintain a challenge, that's for sure.

  Never a truer word spoken.

[account deleted by request]

I have to say I think he was at fault tonight, he played the wrong system, plays with two attacking wingers,then he brings on another two strikers AND TAKES OUR WINGERS OFF? Surely the whole point of playing two wingers is to get crosses into the box.

Certainly the players didn't help matters, but tonight I thought Rafa got it wrong.