Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

Mick, I question whether Alonso has consistently proved himself to be better than Hamman.

Otherwise S@ints post raises some excellent points.

Exactly Reg-inald.

[taff]

If we were to nitpick then gerrard Carra and Owen were with the club before Houllier and coincided with his reign, the three are special playeers so it leads me to ask who did Houllier bring through on his own merit.

[tubby]

Hyppia, Henchoz, Gary Mac, Marcus Babel.

[Rafa D]

.                   Reina
Finnan      Carra     Hyypia    Riise

Gerrard      Mascherano Hamann    Kewell

                Owen    Torres


Gerrard, Carra, Owen - Not Houlliers "buys". Brought through the youth system, oh but I forgot Gerrard and co. was no-bodies and wouldn't of come through without Ged's foresight  


Owen - How can you put Owen in there when it was Houllier's dilly dallying that left him with one year on his contract and Liverpool had no choice but to sell him.(see Robbies book) I doubt very much that Rafa had any say in the Owen saga and using him stinks to high heaven of "Rafa bashing".

Carra - GH tried him at rightback, tried him a leftback and even left him out the team for a while - since Rafa got there he moved Carra into the centre from his very first game and he has stayed there since, becoming one a Liverpool legend.

Gerrard - so you prefer him on the right then, like where Rafa played him?


Kewell - your fu.cking joking right, oh so its Rafa's fault that Harry always got injured and was never fit   Kewell was a fuc.king terrible signing, cost us millions and millions of pounds over the years, GH brought him in and tried to make him into a right winger - that went well , however I can't recall him setting the Prem alight under GH, his best season came under Rafa for me.


Ged's positive signings were - Finnan, Riise, Hyypia and Hamann. All of them were over 30 when Rafa came to the club(apart from Riise), so they were in the twilight of their careers, you cannot put Hammann or Hyypia in the same team as Torres as Torres only came last year and Hyypia and Hamann are fu.cking shi.te now and well past it. You can't say Torres from now and Hypia from 2005, it doesnt work like that, players get older, get slower and get sh.itter.

[66-1112520797]

If we were to nitpick then gerrard Carra and Owen were with the club before Houllier and coincided with his reign, the three are special playeers so it leads me to ask who did Houllier bring through on his own merit.

Erm

Hamman
Finnan
Riise
Hyypia
McAllister
Henchoz
Babbel

to name but a good decent few,

[LFC2007]

Ah once again the paraphrase, "Eurpoe is a piece of p!ss" Once again I can see I'm going to have to put disclaimers when I say and have said and will say that to qualify and get out of the group stages is a minimum for any Liverpool manager, indeed any manager of a big four English club "I'M NOT SAYING WINNING THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE IS A PIECE OF P!SS".

I was taking the Michael Mouse, exaggerating your position - much in the same way as you do to others.

That apart, Rafa's record in the league certainly isn't in a different stratosphere to Houllier so in that sense it's a fair question. Indeed, in the season where Houllier got ill and Thompson took over, were if only fleetingly involved in the title race for a while (well I was dreaming anyway even if nobody else was). We even managed to finish second, which obviously we have never been anywhere near under Rafa at least i don't think we have anyway.

Well, we 've been third, just one point behind second, so in that sense, we've been significantly nearer than 'having never been anywhere near second'.

Where he's in a different stratoshere, is that he buys better players, builds better teams, doesn't rattle off some pointless stat about us having the most corners in the league when we've played sh!t, doesn't claim players are the new Raul etc etc. There is absolutely no question in my mind that he is in a different stratosphere, and that the team we have now is infinitely superior to the one which won the Champions League. The fact that this team, though vastly superior is only able to match Houlliers band of merry men in the League is astonishing really. It leads you to look for a reason, and I think I found it about three seasons ago.

With little or no accommodation for the fact that the league is now stronger, and more difficult to win?. Chelsea are infinitely stronger and the Manc's have arguably the best side they've had in a decade. Granted Arsenal aren't as good as they were under Houllier (though they still linger as a big threat), but the rise of Chelsea and the development of the Manc's (not to mention the overall increase in spending power amongst many of the smaller clubs) justify in my eyes that it's now tougher to win. Enough even to counter the fact that our squad has improved significantly - esp. given that Rafa wasn't privy to having two great strikers in their prime at his disposal. Suffice to say, I agree that we need to see progression this season, and that means a challenge sustained for significantly longer.

This is all IMO of course, and I reserve the right not to be mocked for having it.

[account deleted by request]

I was never saying that Houllier was a better manager than Rafa, so who brought Gerrard , Carra and Owen through doesn't really matter does it? The fact that they were at the club is all that matters for my arguement. 

So before Houllier left he should have replaced all the players that were in their prime just so the players he did leave would still be at their peak ...... FOUR YEARS LATER

As for Owen thats still a matter for debate. Rafa had the option of selling him or playing him and running down his contract AS HE THREATENED TO DO WITH CROUCH. If he had played him and we had still won the CL I am pretty sure Owen would still be here now. It was a gamble that Rafa decided wasn't worth it. 

Houlliers signings have nothing to do with my posts, I said he left a lot of decent players....... WTF has who brought them through got to do with that?

I never said Houllier was a genius, just that we havent improved the first team since as much as some on here would have you believe.

The point is not even the number of Houllier players that would get into the team NOW. Its the fact that the team wasn't good enough then and it hasn't been improved that much in the four years since.......so its still not good enough NOW.

BTW Finnan was born 20.04.1976 so he was 28 not over 30 when Rafa took over. So that leaves you with Hamman and Hyypia who were both just 30.

Considering if Rafa left now we would have Carra over 30 and obviously past it and Hyypia and Finnan older than me.....

[Rafa D]

Yes but Carra's about the only one.

Rafa's building this club as a whole for the next 10 years with his current policy.

Just lets see this season out and see where we are.

Answer a couple of questions:

Has Rafa's regime been sucessful?

Will it continue to be?

[account deleted by request]

Debatable

Hopefully it will get better because if it doesn't he will be gone!

[ConnO'var]

I was never saying that Houllier was a better manager than Rafa, so who brought Gerrard , Carra and Owen through doesn't really matter does it? The fact that they were at the club is all that matters for my arguement. 

So before Houllier left he should have replaced all the players that were in their prime just so the players he did leave would still be at their peak ...... FOUR YEARS LATER

As for Owen thats still a matter for debate. Rafa had the option of selling him or playing him and running down his contract AS HE THREATENED TO DO WITH CROUCH. If he had played him and we had still won the CL I am pretty sure Owen would still be here now. It was a gamble that Rafa decided wasn't worth it. 

Houlliers signings have nothing to do with my posts, I said he left a lot of decent players....... WTF has who brought them through got to do with that?

I never said Houllier was a genius, just that we havent improved the first team since as much as some on here would have you believe.

The point is not even the number of Houllier players that would get into the team NOW. Its the fact that the team wasn't good enough then and it hasn't been improved that much in the four years since.......so its still not good enough NOW.

BTW Finnan was born 20.04.1976 so he was 28 not over 30 when Rafa took over. So that leaves you with Hamman and Hyypia who were both just 30.

Considering if Rafa left now we would have Carra over 30 and obviously past it and Hyypia and Finnan older than me.....

Excellent post mate.

I wondered how your initial post suddenly became intepreted as a Houllier is better than Rafa debate!








Oooops! Sorry.... I take that back less this be misconstrued as Rafa bashing.......


Bad boy, s@int!
How dare you??!




Where is that sarcasm smiley when you need it?   

[woof woof !]

F'uck , I've completly lost the plot now, will somebody remind me what this discussion is all about ?   

[LFC2007]

F'uck , I've completly lost the plot now, will somebody remind me what this discussion is all about ?   

It's Rafa's last chance, and if he doesn't get it right, S@int and Bamaga are gonna sack him.

[ConnO'var]

F'uck , I've completly lost the plot now, will somebody remind me what this discussion is all about ?   

It's Rafa's last chance, and if he doesn't get it right, S@int and Bamaga are gonna sack him.

[Rafa D]

F'uck , I've completly lost the plot now, will somebody remind me what this discussion is all about ?   

It's Rafa's last chance, and if he doesn't get it right, S@int and Bamaga are gonna sack him.

Best post on here.   

[account deleted by request]

Who said anything about sacking Rafa ?










If he doesn't get it right this season, s@int and Bamaga are going to make sure Rafa sleeps with the fishes.