Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

But at least Zenden has the self discipline to hold position

Thats because he hasnt got the legs to roam, so he's static in midfield

I agree that Alonso has been better than him theres no question, and I'm not snuffing Gerrards ars.e because he has been poor. But I dont understand the way Gerrard has to be re-shuffled about through midfield for the sake of the team, especially when its not working. The same thing is happening at Liverpool as it did when Gerrard played in the WC for England. Because he's Liverpool and Englands best palyer he looses out on his best position, I seem to recall you taking a swipe a Sven for doing the same thing with Gerrard at the WC, because of fat Frank. Now there is no way on earth that fat frank is better than Alonso, but in the Liverpool team they could be paired off perfectly, unlike the case with Fatboy frank who was inept at his defensive duties...... Alonso isnt.
It amazes me how after three quarters of a season, everyone knows Gerrards best position is RM, when before that he made his name and was touted as one of the best CM's in the world.

I slated Sven for picking that useless fat c*nt in the advanced role rather than Gerrard becasue Gerrard is BETTER than Lampard at it.

I have felt for months that Lampard is an overrated liability, and it seems that that is now the accepted thing.

ALonso isn't better than Gerrard on the right, hence why I don't champion his inclusion there.

He is, however, 50 times better centrally. With Gerrard there, he has to stifle his own attacking instincts as one moment of attacking can (and does) lead to a goal agaisnt us.

That is why Gerrard on the right, with the freedom to roam wherever he chooses, is the best position for the lad.

But obviously he needs to stay right for long period, with the option of drifting in - otherwise it defeats the object.

[account deleted by request]

Bamaga the point I think you are missing is Gerrard played great Central midfield with Hamann wiping his a$$. How often has he played central midfield with Alonso or Momo as his partner? Maybe there is a reason for this?

[red37]

Bamaga the point I think you are missing is Gerrard played great Central midfield with Hamann wiping his a$$. How often has he played central midfield with Alonso or Momo as his partner? Maybe there is a reason for this?

Amen to that!

[66-1112520797]

lets just say, that he's better off  playing there, with the current set-up in mind. Alonso operates to his best when the oppositions attention is focused on keeping Gerrard shackled because he is such a threat. (forget whether his 23 goals came from the middle or the flank) the lad is of major concern to any side he faces. and with him out on the right it widens our menace and strength accross the park, instead of narrowing it allowing forays against our weaker flanks. which as a result diminishes the midfields potency in being pre-occupied with repelling attacks instead of supplying the service. Especially when Gerrard has driven into the box and its all broke down. Alonso is then stranded. Of course the opposition in question is relevant as to whether Rafa chooses to exploit Gerrards versatility. but neither of those two are 'defensively' minded, they can tackle, for sure. but that isnt the role asked of them. and until the wide positions are addressed properly this will remain highly topical. the only real issue to note, and the reason this debate rumbles on is the fact that none of them have hit the heights yet, for whatever reasons. that and the loss of a 'break-up player' like Sissoko are two critical factors. 
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Lets take it back a couple of seasons where Hamman was wiping his a$$, I recall Gerrard being labelled as the best box to box midfielder in the world. He DID track back, he DID make those bone crunching tackles he did get to roam all around the pitch. His game wasnt narrowed as the lad was everywhere, a player just doesnt lose that ability overnight and I think by Rafa using Gerrard in a "roaming" role it has taken the discipline out of his game.

Now we've got Alonso in the middle instead of Hamman, Alonso IS A holding midfielder except he can probe better using his passing abilities when looking forward. So why is it now that Gerrard cant apparently operate in the same role? S@int as for Momo and Stevie not working thats blatantly obvious, Momo isnt a holding midfielder.

Also if Rafa were of able to sign either Alves or Joaquin where do you think he'd play Gerrard?

[red37]

Lampard should be nowhere near the England first team. The only good thing about having him there is the fact that Gerrard's stock rises on each occasion. He is both 'one-dimensional' and 'profligate' in equal amounts. Never have i seen such 'desperation to impress' for all the wrong  reasons, from a member of the national side. Lazy, tunnel-visioned and overrated. He must be eating Ballacks sh1t at chelsea because i can see no other reason for him to take his place on a football pitch. And get so highly thought of for it. Its no wonder the German was drafted in. It'll be an even bigger shock though if McLaren had the b@lls to realise it as well...

[account deleted by request]

Alonso isnt a holding midfielder in the same way Hamann was. Hamann was similar to Makalele breaking up attacks and playing it simply to the more creative players. Alonso IS a creative player more like Beckenbaur(sp) was before he moved to sweeper. Alonso has defensive duties and does them well but hes not a full time babysitter like Hamann was.

[red37]

Hamann and to a degree, Sissoko, allowed Gerrard licence to freely  deploy his energy and creativity directly elsewhere on the game. and as you correctly say, Didi played an instrumental role in that. the fact Gerrard was playing out of his 'skin' performing all kinds of feats was purely down to being free from obligation instead of having to keep one eye on the space he vacates when Alonso et al. are paired with him. You forget the role that Momo adopts is in breaking up play or intercepting the ball. Gerrard on the other hand is best suited to developing that possession. and at the moment neither is happening. 2 seasons ago nobody gave a thought to using him on the right, because we didnt have to. It turned out to be an inspired decision last year by Benitez, due to the two in the centre forming a partnership that allowed it to transpire. but whatever circumstances have arisen in making this argument valid today stem from the simple fact that ultimately Hamann wasnt replaced. And until Sissoko returns it will remain as topical.

[account deleted by request]

I honestly think that when Momo is a bit older and has more experience and discipline he will drop back and become a top class (if not World class) defensive midfielder. At the moment he has too much energy and stamina to be "wasted" in that position. A lot will depend on the requirements of the club and how much football "intelligence" he has, because although Hamann made it look easy it is one of the most demanding positions, requiring concentration and great reading of the game.

[66-1112520797]

I honestly think that when Momo is a bit older and has more experience and discipline he will drop back and become a top class (if not World class) defensive midfielder. At the moment he has too much energy and stamina to be "wasted" in that position. A lot will depend on the requirements of the club and how much football "intelligence" he has, because although Hamann made it look easy it is one of the most demanding positions, requiring concentration and great reading of the game.

I cant see that, he'll be more of a Vieira type player than a holding one.

[Lando_Griffin]

The reason our central midfielders need to be more disciplined under Benitez is because, quite simply, the defenders are expected to attack now, whereas under Houllier (all Gerrard's first-team games pre-Benitez), the defence simply sat 2 yards off our goal line and tw*tted it upfield to Heskey and Owen.

Look at the difference under Rafa - Finnan has the second number of assists this season, I believe.
Riise, Agger, Aurelio - all defenders who can attack and score.

THAT is why Gerrard was able to flourish partnering Hamann - we played negative, boring football on the counter. Therefore, he had virtually an entire team back defending for him.

If he played the same way in Rafa's Liverpool, we'd get carved open on a regular basis. We are a pressing side. We build attacks whilst stifling the opposition.
Our team is just that - a team. We attack as a team, and we defend as a team.

Gerrard does not have the dicipline to play the central role in that system, hence why his best position is right midfield.

Houllier made the fatal flaw of buttering Stevie up - he's used to being mollycoddled.

We all know that is never going to happen with Rafa, and thank f*ck for that.

[account deleted by request]

I honestly think that when Momo is a bit older and has more experience and discipline he will drop back and become a top class (if not World class) defensive midfielder. At the moment he has too much energy and stamina to be "wasted" in that position. A lot will depend on the requirements of the club and how much football "intelligence" he has, because although Hamann made it look easy it is one of the most demanding positions, requiring concentration and great reading of the game.

I cant see that, he'll be more of a Vieira type player than a holding one.

I think people just use that comparison because hes big and black and likes to tackle. He is nothing like a young Viera. Viera had much more natural abilities, a wide array of passing skills, ability on the ball and vision, but was never as mobile or as great an athlete as Momo. Momo is not in the same class as Viera as a central midfielder and never will be. As a defensive midfielder Momo may have the tools to become even better than Viera.

[Lando_Griffin]

I honestly think that when Momo is a bit older and has more experience and discipline he will drop back and become a top class (if not World class) defensive midfielder. At the moment he has too much energy and stamina to be "wasted" in that position. A lot will depend on the requirements of the club and how much football "intelligence" he has, because although Hamann made it look easy it is one of the most demanding positions, requiring concentration and great reading of the game.

I cant see that, he'll be more of a Vieira type player than a holding one.

I think people just use that comparison because hes big and black and likes to tackle. He is nothing like a young Viera. Viera had much more natural abilities, a wide array of passing skills, ability on the ball and vision, but was never as mobile or as great an athlete as Momo. Momo is not in the same class as Viera as a central midfielder and never will be. As a defensive midfielder Momo may have the tools to become even better than Viera.

I disagree mate.

Momo, for all his strengths, is a battling Midfielder, and doesn't seem to possess the required abilities a holding Midfielder displays from an early age.

He has absolutely NO positional sense whatsoever. His boundless energy and tackling has saved him on numerous occasions with that.

He cannot read the game. Sometimes I half expect him to stop, pick the ball up, and ask "what IS this?". He is totally clueless in possession, and tends to get rushed off the ball. I doubt he has a single assist in his entire career.

His passing is probably the worst I have ever seen in a midfielder at this level. The amount of p*ss-easy passes he manages to f*ck up astounds me. He is as bad as Garcia for wasting posession at times.


These skills for me represent the bare minimum for a defensive midfielder. Even if you're only missing one, you'll struggle to make it above the likes of Watford's team.

Passing can be worked on (only so far), but vision on the field is either there or it isn't. It cannot be taught. Same with positional sense. You either have it or you don't.

With Momo, I think what you see is what we'll get from now until the day he retires - a battling midfielder who harries the opposition into mistakes, forces the runners into Xabi (or whomever), and acts as a distraction while Xabi does his thing.

One thing's for sure:

He'll never come close to Viera. Not even close.

[account deleted by request]

I honestly think that when Momo is a bit older and has more experience and discipline he will drop back and become a top class (if not World class) defensive midfielder. At the moment he has too much energy and stamina to be "wasted" in that position. A lot will depend on the requirements of the club and how much football "intelligence" he has, because although Hamann made it look easy it is one of the most demanding positions, requiring concentration and great reading of the game.

I cant see that, he'll be more of a Vieira type player than a holding one.

I think people just use that comparison because hes big and black and likes to tackle. He is nothing like a young Viera. Viera had much more natural abilities, a wide array of passing skills, ability on the ball and vision, but was never as mobile or as great an athlete as Momo. Momo is not in the same class as Viera as a central midfielder and never will be. As a defensive midfielder Momo may have the tools to become even better than Viera.

I disagree mate.

Momo, for all his strengths, is a battling Midfielder, and doesn't seem to possess the required abilities a holding Midfielder displays from an early age.

He has absolutely NO positional sense whatsoever. His boundless energy and tackling has saved him on numerous occasions with that.

He cannot read the game. Sometimes I half expect him to stop, pick the ball up, and ask "what IS this?". He is totally clueless in possession, and tends to get rushed off the ball. I doubt he has a single assist in his entire career.

His passing is probably the worst I have ever seen in a midfielder at this level. The amount of p*ss-easy passes he manages to f*ck up astounds me. He is as bad as Garcia for wasting posession at times.


These skills for me represent the bare minimum for a defensive midfielder. Even if you're only missing one, you'll struggle to make it above the likes of Watford's team.

Passing can be worked on (only so far), but vision on the field is either there or it isn't. It cannot be taught. Same with positional sense. You either have it or you don't.

With Momo, I think what you see is what we'll get from now until the day he retires - a battling midfielder who harries the opposition into mistakes, forces the runners into Xabi (or whomever), and acts as a distraction while Xabi does his thing.

One thing's for sure:

He'll never come close to Viera. Not even close.

Momo reminds me of a young Emlyn Hughes boundless energy charging about the field tackling anything that moved. Emlyn had a great shot and could pass but apart from that they are quite similar in style.

Emyln had little vision or creative flair (Stjohn had more than enough for both ) just like Momo, but he developed into a great defender. Experience and age will develop Momo's reading of the game and positional sense,and while he will probably never have Hamann's abilities, he is much faster and has greater stamina than Hamann to make up for any limitations in other areas.

4 years from now Momo may yet become the new great Defensive midfielder. Trust me. Remember Hamann was an attacking midfielder at Newcastle, even playing on the right wing!

[babu]

litte bit of topic here, but thought some light entertainment would be appreciated.

This is a post from CFCnet, discussing whether that useless lump of lardpard can be compared with Zidane.

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I don't think Zidane or Deco can be compaired to Frank. They never had and never will have his strength, stamina and (much as I hate this phrase) driving force.

Zidane may have had skills that Lampard (and most other players) will never have, Deco certainly doesn't.

That said, as far as production is concerned Lampard will probably go on to surpass Zidane's creative output and he has already contributed a hundred times more defensively than Zidane did in his career.

I'm not saying that for pure creativity I'd select Lampard over Zidane, I'm saying that I don't think you can consider Zidane a midfielder in the modern era...he was an attacking playmaker, and because of players like Lampard the role of a midfielder is redefined to something much more.
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[account deleted by request]

litte bit of topic here, but thought some light entertainment would be appreciated.

This is a post from CFCnet, discussing whether that useless lump of lardpard can be compared with Zidane.

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I don't think Zidane or Deco can be compaired to Frank. They never had and never will have his strength, stamina and (much as I hate this phrase) driving force.

Zidane may have had skills that Lampard (and most other players) will never have, Deco certainly doesn't.

That said, as far as production is concerned Lampard will probably go on to surpass Zidane's creative output and he has already contributed a hundred times more defensively than Zidane did in his career.

I'm not saying that for pure creativity I'd select Lampard over Zidane, I'm saying that I don't think you can consider Zidane a midfielder in the modern era...he was an attacking playmaker, and because of players like Lampard the role of a midfielder is redefined to something much more.
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I had to laugh, but it was tinged with guilt as I hate to make fun of the mentally retarded.