Liverpool FC Forum

[aCe']

To make it, for me, he has to show things that we haven't seen from him before. Ace's post on this page is an excellent one, but although playing 4-1-4-1 with Masherano as the lone sitter sounds attractive, I  simply can't see us playing that way. If we do, Torres is going to get destroyed playing up there totally on his own. Equally, I don't think FWIW Masherano is going to be at the club.

No, for me Aquilani either has to make it as a bona fide midfielder in a 4-4-2, or he has to be better than Joey Cole or Gerrard or any striker we bring in at playing off Torres (obviously injuries to other players permitting).

He can do any of the above, but whether he will or not is another matter. He is obviously a talented player, but I maintain he isn't talented enough for us to be able to carry him. He isn't a Christiano Ronaldo, nor is he a Thierry Henri in his pomp, or an Eric Cantona or a Gianfranco Zola. What he is, is a good footballer. That isn't on it's own enough to warrant carrying him. He isn't going to contibute enough going forward to compensate for what he doesn't fo going backwards based on what we've seen so far IMHO.

He MUST though make one of those roles work for him. I'm coming round to the idea that if we don't buy a Steven Ireland, central midfield might be his best chance.

Mick... I dont know if this example is any good but consider the case of ManUtd...

When they had Cristiano Ronaldo they relied mostly on playing the counter attacking game with a more direct approach... In league games they essentially played with 4 attacking players who offered more going forward than they did defensively... The main reason they played that direct approach imo was Cristiano Ronaldo.. With a dribble or a through ball or a long shot he was able to unlock defenses.. Add to that the finishing and allround game that Rooney brings to the table and it was indeed a setup that worked well for them...

Last season however, they found it very hard to employ the same system... They often had to play a 4-5-1 that was more focused on keeping possession and getting the most from the midfielders that drove forward.. The likes of Fletcher, Giggs, Scholes, Nani, Valencia and even Evra all contributed more this season in terms of goals AND assists than they did when Ronaldo was there...

Im not saying its the same for us... But to me its something of a similar case albeit at a smaller scale... If Gerrard is moved back to a deeper central midfield position we'll almost certainly have to change our style of play to compensate the goals and drive that he provided from that second striker position... Im not convinced that anyone believes that Joe Cole could play the role and offer as much in terms of goals and assists as Gerrard did..

Like you said though, it would be tough on Torres having to play that lone striker role with little support from right behind him but with players like Cole, Aquilani and Gerrard retaining the possession higher up the pitch we might not need him to bring the ball down under pressure as much as he does now... Having a Kuyt or Jovanovic  in the side would also give him more freedom to move to the channels with either one taking a more central role ...


Ofcourse the easier way to do things would have been to simply buy a central midfielder capable of playing alongside Mascherano... problem solved... However i dont think thats likely to happen atm... We'll just have to do with what we have and to be honest as long as we dont see Lucas-Mascherano playing together in most games next season ill be satisfied..

[Owzat]

why do england never win feck all. Because you lot are all the fecking same. All u want is tough tackiing huff the ball up type players. All of u moan about aquas frailities. Aquilani will prove this season that hes better than cole and gerrard but all u lot will be looking for is whether hes sticks the boot it. Absolutely typical english mentality.

I kind of agree with where you're coming from

England don't win anything because the English players look good surrounded by foreign fill-ins who club managers can buy to compensate where the English players are lacking. That's why so many clubs have so few English players, a lot of compensating required!

And the players put on pedestals like Rooney, Gerrard, Cashley, Terry, fat frank, Lennon etc just don't step up and perform. Or bottom line perhaps they're not that good outside of the comfort zone of the Premiership where most games are a lot easier, and they can "disappear" in the big games

[Thommo's perm]

why do england never win feck all. Because you lot are all the fecking same. All u want is tough tackiing huff the ball up type players. All of u moan about aquas frailities. Aquilani will prove this season that hes better than cole and gerrard but all u lot will be looking for is whether hes sticks the boot it. Absolutely typical english mentality.

I kind of agree with where you're coming from

England don't win anything because the English players look good surrounded by foreign fill-ins who club managers can buy to compensate where the English players are lacking. That's why so many clubs have so few English players, a lot of compensating required!

And the players put on pedestals like Rooney, Gerrard, Cashley, Terry, fat frank, Lennon etc just don't step up and perform. Or bottom line perhaps they're not that good outside of the comfort zone of the Premiership where most games are a lot easier, and they can "disappear" in the big games

Hmmm
I dont just think its one thing though. Theres a number of reasons England were utter sh'ite in the WC. Outrageous expectations, a foreign manager and disgusting arrogance are three of the main ones in my opinion. I dont think its because we lack the players. I believe its the systems and formations thats drummed into them.

[mart]

Outrageous expectations, a foreign manager and disgusting arrogance are three of the main ones in my opinion. I dont think its because we lack the players. I believe its the systems and formations thats drummed into them.

Indeed. With a english manager England always wins the world cup easily.

[rocky29]

why do england never win feck all. Because you lot are all the fecking same. All u want is tough tackiing huff the ball up type players. All of u moan about aquas frailities. Aquilani will prove this season that hes better than cole and gerrard but all u lot will be looking for is whether hes sticks the boot it. Absolutely typical english mentality.

I kind of agree with where you're coming from

England don't win anything because the English players look good surrounded by foreign fill-ins who club managers can buy to compensate where the English players are lacking. That's why so many clubs have so few English players, a lot of compensating required!

And the players put on pedestals like Rooney, Gerrard, Cashley, Terry, fat frank, Lennon etc just don't step up and perform. Or bottom line perhaps they're not that good outside of the comfort zone of the Premiership where most games are a lot easier, and they can "disappear" in the big games

Hmmm
I dont just think its one thing though. Theres a number of reasons England were utter sh'ite in the WC. Outrageous expectations, a foreign manager and disgusting arrogance are three of the main ones in my opinion. I dont think its because we lack the players. I believe its the systems and formations thats drummed into them.

what a load of . Everyone is blaming the manager as i said they would. All ive kept hearing from english managers and talksport. Is capello carnt speak english and rooney was missing his kid and they werent allowed out of there hotel. Its the world cup for fecksake. Being homesick cos your in 5star hotel for a few weeks playing in the best tournament in the world. Your having a fecking laugh blaming the manager. What does this tell you whenever capello has managed aside in italy or spain hes been a success. He comes to england and what happens. The fact is if the players had half the mental strength and passion of capello they would of got a hell of alot further.

[Tim LFC]

Should be playing in the EL this thursday.

[Reg]

I struggle to see where Maxi fits in to tell you the truth. Squad/rotation player at best.

[bigmick]

Yep, wood that's on it last legs, soon to become dead I'm afraid Reg.

[Thommo's perm]

Outrageous expectations, a foreign manager and disgusting arrogance are three of the main ones in my opinion. I dont think its because we lack the players. I believe its the systems and formations thats drummed into them.

Indeed. With a english manager England always wins the world cup easily.

Nice try at spinning

A national team full of national players representing their nation shouldnt have a foreigner managing them.
It doesnt make sense.
As far as the previous england managers. They have been sh'it, but thats not to say there isnt one out there who could do the job. They just havent been chosen yet. Which brings us back to the set up of the FA.
Brian Clough is a prime example of their incompetence.

[Owzat]

Don't see why a national side has to have a manager of that nationality, surely the best man for the job should do it and there are by the law of averages more foreign managers than English ones.

Failed to qualify for USA 1994 - English manager (Graham Taylor)
Failed to qualify for Euro 2008 - English manager (Steve McLaren)

While expectations may be high of England when we get there, the main thing is to get there and the foreign managers haven't failed to do that whereas Johnny English has - and in some cases it might as well literally have been Johnny English, Bough. (pronounced "Boff") The notion that somehow the English manager is in synch with the players doesn't wash, only Redknapp at spudz was English among the top EIGHT Premiership clubs and that might be as much to do with their spending power as it does with Redknapp being English. Don't get me wrong, he is a good manager, but spudz have often been there or thereabouts

It's a shame there is a dearth of top English managers, but then when lemons like McLaren, Robson, Shearer, Southgate, Ince and Dowie (technically English as born in Hatfield, but N.Irish by dint of playing for said country) are managers then it makes managers like Redknapp and Hodgson look like geniuses.

I don't care who manages England, I certainly don't believe it has to be an Englishman. It could be an f in ALIEN for all I care, as long as it gets the best out of the players. Sometimes I wish we could pick non-English players as well, like we do for the cricket team!

[rocky29]

Don't see why a national side has to have a manager of that nationality, surely the best man for the job should do it and there are by the law of averages more foreign managers than English ones.

Failed to qualify for USA 1994 - English manager (Graham Taylor)
Failed to qualify for Euro 2008 - English manager (Steve McLaren)

While expectations may be high of England when we get there, the main thing is to get there and the foreign managers haven't failed to do that whereas Johnny English has - and in some cases it might as well literally have been Johnny English, Bough. (pronounced "Boff") The notion that somehow the English manager is in synch with the players doesn't wash, only Redknapp at spudz was English among the top EIGHT Premiership clubs and that might be as much to do with their spending power as it does with Redknapp being English. Don't get me wrong, he is a good manager, but spudz have often been there or thereabouts

It's a shame there is a dearth of top English managers, but then when lemons like McLaren, Robson, Shearer, Southgate, Ince and Dowie (technically English as born in Hatfield, but N.Irish by dint of playing for said country) are managers then it makes managers like Redknapp and Hodgson look like geniuses.

I don't care who manages England, I certainly don't believe it has to be an Englishman. It could be an f in ALIEN for all I care, as long as it gets the best out of the players. Sometimes I wish we could pick non-English players as well, like we do for the cricket team!

its doesnt matter who the manager is. The players simply aernt hungry enough and never will be. To say capello is the reason why we played sh!ite is plain laughable. Put capello in any other side he wud be successful end of.

[mart]

Don't see why a national side has to have a manager of that nationality, surely the best man for the job should do it and there are by the law of averages more foreign managers than English ones.

Failed to qualify for USA 1994 - English manager (Graham Taylor)
Failed to qualify for Euro 2008 - English manager (Steve McLaren)

While expectations may be high of England when we get there, the main thing is to get there and the foreign managers haven't failed to do that whereas Johnny English has - and in some cases it might as well literally have been Johnny English, Bough. (pronounced "Boff") The notion that somehow the English manager is in synch with the players doesn't wash, only Redknapp at spudz was English among the top EIGHT Premiership clubs and that might be as much to do with their spending power as it does with Redknapp being English. Don't get me wrong, he is a good manager, but spudz have often been there or thereabouts

It's a shame there is a dearth of top English managers, but then when lemons like McLaren, Robson, Shearer, Southgate, Ince and Dowie (technically English as born in Hatfield, but N.Irish by dint of playing for said country) are managers then it makes managers like Redknapp and Hodgson look like geniuses.

I don't care who manages England, I certainly don't believe it has to be an Englishman. It could be an f in ALIEN for all I care, as long as it gets the best out of the players. Sometimes I wish we could pick non-English players as well, like we do for the cricket team!

its doesnt matter who the manager is. The players simply aernt hungry enough and never will be. To say capello is the reason why we played sh!ite is plain laughable. Put capello in any other side he wud be successful end of.

Lack of hunger is one thing, but simply speaking most of the players are overrated. The biggest problem seems to be a lack of balance in the team as english players tend to focus on a limited set of skills. On club teams the manager can fill those gaps with foreign players so you dont notice it as much.

The problem for the english team has its roots in the development of youth players and how the league is run. I dont see it changing anytime soon.

[mart]

A national team full of national players representing their nation shouldnt have a foreigner managing them.
It doesnt make sense.

Like the champions league is a league for champions?

[rocky29]

Outrageous expectations, a foreign manager and disgusting arrogance are three of the main ones in my opinion. I dont think its because we lack the players. I believe its the systems and formations thats drummed into them.

Indeed. With a english manager England always wins the world cup easily.

Nice try at spinning

A national team full of national players representing their nation shouldnt have a foreigner managing them.
It doesnt make sense.
As far as the previous england managers. They have been sh'it, but thats not to say there isnt one out there who could do the job. They just havent been chosen yet. Which brings us back to the set up of the FA.
Brian Clough is a prime example of their incompetence.

so in 44 years we havent won anything. But theres an english manager out there somewhere!   

[Tim LFC]

Surely this is going a bit off topic guys?