The future of britain, - Or the save our future thread.

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Postby Kharhaz » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:39 am

Should you see on television this morning our beloved Queen opening Parliament, ponder for a moment all the much more constructive and enjoyable things that a dear old lady in her 84th year could be doing instead. There is no purpose to her speech. Indeed, there is no point in the continuation of the present Parliament, which I think we can agree is the most despised since Cromwell threw out the Rump in 1653. Almost all those assembled at Westminster today will know that. Few, though, have any reason to admit it. The likelihood of much serious legislation reaching the statute book by the time Parliament goes away for its Easter holidays, and an election campaign, in late March is minimal. It is the tradition of a Queen's Speech at this stage in the proceedings to be an outline of the manifesto and the programme for the next term. Hopes of Labour being back in power after next May must, however, be slim, so even that value is lost. Yet the two main parties have their own reasons not to have the contest just yet, despite the fraud on the public that this coming few months will represent.

Nick Clegg, the ex-lothario who now leads the Liberal Democrats, has gone so far as to say that Her Majesty's speech should be scrapped and, pending a general election, Parliament should proceed to reform itself. I am against this for the very good reason that if someone burgles your house they will not be your first choice to advise you on security measures, and you would not expect the courts to ask them to pass sentence on themselves. This Parliament cannot possibly reform itself. Too many of its members are not going to be there, for one reason or another, in a few months. Such is the bitterness of many of them over having had their collars felt in the expenses scandal that they can hardly be relied upon to come up with a set of arrangements that suits the country better than it would suit them. If Parliament is to be reformed, the size and import of the task are such that it should not happen until after an election. The people need the opportunity to decide who exactly is going to do the reforming: this lot cannot be trusted.

If you feel that is an exaggeration, look what they did when last entrusted with what was potentially a great reforming measure – the chance to elect a new Speaker to replace the compromised and incapable man we must learn to call Lord Martin. They ended up choosing the legislature's equivalent of Donald Duck, not because they believed he might step out of his cartoon one day and restore order to a profoundly damaged but vital institution, but because it would upset the Tory party. That is how serious the present parliamentary majority is about restoring the credibility of the Commons. And as we read endless stories about the new Speaker's lavish refurbishments of his apartments, the size of his television, his wife's political stunts and his decision not to dress properly for the State Opening, the full force of what a pointless little creep he is, and how he squats vacuously in one of the great positions of state, is brought home to us.

It is also optimistic of Mr Clegg to think that, in the four or five months that remain before an election is called, anything that might constitute the carefully considered reform of Parliament could be more than merely embarked upon. I dwell on this subject not because I believe Mr Clegg to be a serious political figure, but because the next accident that happens in our political process could be that he ends up having some measure of power under a minority government. Mr Brown knows this is likely, and that is why (as I wrote at the time) he promised an otherwise off-the-wall referendum on the alternative vote system of proportional representation. The Conservatives, faced with this possibility, are playing an interesting game. Their public pronouncements are to the effect that it is an uphill struggle, they are not complacent, the battle is not yet won. Yet I keep meeting Tory MPs who say that they are going to get a majority of 50 or 60 (though one did have the good manners the other day to tell me that, following the debacle of Mr Cameron's European policy, it may be 20 fewer thanks to votes that will go to Ukip in various marginal seats). The party's public pronouncements are (and this is a rarity) likely to be far more accurate than its private ones. The party is not agitating for an immediate election precisely because it is genuinely unsure that it can win it outright.

Much damage can be done in the next few months; not so much in Parliament (though that is possible, especially if there are any frivolous attempts to make little constitutional reforms that may end up having big consequences) as in the business of government, which we can expect to continue with its present level of incompetence and distraction. Too many Labour ministers are concentrating on their likely personal defeats, or on the defeat of their party, their need to survive in opposition and what camp to jump into in the leadership campaign that is likely to follow the election.

It is surprising, given those conditions, that the opposition is not livelier and noisier. It is handicapped, however, by an absence of firm policy to be lively and noisy about. Even this late in the day, it remains much easier for the Tories to be negative about what Labour does or proposes than to be positive about their own programme. The party is still resistant to hard political principles but flexible in the face of polling and focus group findings. It is hard for shadow spokesmen to try to develop policy when one of the teenagers in Central Office could get on the phone at any time and ask them to move sharply in the opposite direction.

Mr Brown probably has given his party the best chance of a non-apocalyptic result by holding on for as long as he can. The public has now so lost interest in politics (look at the 33 per cent turn-out in last week's by-election if you seek proof) that having a few more months of this Parliament may distress commentators and the highly politically motivated, but it probably won't matter at all to the electorate.

If I were an MP in any of the parties who was likely to be around after early May, I would start thinking now very hard about two things in particular: how do we revive Britain, and how do we start to rebuild the credibility of Parliament itself? There is no other plausible use for the next few months. Maybe there should be some debates on the adjournment on these two subjects between now and March, not with a view to passing laws (if, indeed, any laws could solve either problem) but to discussing the options for action that cannot, in either case, be delayed much beyond the next State Opening. Today's will be a pitiful occasion entirely in keeping with what this Government, and this Parliament, have made of themselves. Not even the harshest of republicans could agree that our poor, dear Queen deserves to have to do this, and have to indulge this shambles any longer.


Taken from the Telegraph.

I remember a long time back on this forum when I mentioned all the laws are the Queens Laws. And I was mocked and ridiculed then Manhatton backed me up by pointing out that its down to the queen to agree whether these laws are passed or not. And as others also pointed out she just stamps her "yes" across the bill and its done.

As this article points out. The queens role is just simply pointless. She would never jeopordise her position or her families. She is in a position of power but simply loves her role as queen. When she dies the role continues. Be it Prince Charles becomes king or whatever, the lifestyle is more important than the needs of others, namely, the british public.

The same goes for the politicians, only they can be named and shamed for their misdemeanours. But like royalty, they can get by. Scotland Yard are supposed to be looking into what each member has got against them but they are above the law. Nothing will happen. They have been caught out, they have been shamed, and they have tried to save their position by paying back what they have stolen,  an admission of guilt if ever their was one, but will they be punished? not a chance.


Classic Clip.

I show this clip simply because, what we are experiencing is nothing new, but their have always been ways of dealing with what we are dealing with today. Today however, we have nothing. Their is no saving grace, the local elections have labour voted out and conservative replacing them. Same ole same ole. The expenses scandal spread across the board. We are no longer represented by the people. The queen has the power to instill a trust across britain and make major changes, will she? of course not. Her life is too cushy, will the future heirs to her throne? again of course not. Same reason.

My trust is in our kids, with so many passing their exams with A's and A*****'s our future is looking good, our present not so....

...oh wait....
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby LFC2007 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:35 am

Mate, the Queen doesn't have the power to make major changes to Britain, though her position clearly carries a certain influence.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:48 am

royal prerogative Kharhaz, is more or less a power that is now exercised by the PM. remember the case of the union workers during the Thatcher reign? the one where she used national security as a reason? click here
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Postby JoeTerp » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:26 am

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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:42 am

oh btw Joe, dont you think America is moving towards Fascism? or maybe a more appropriate word would be Corporatism?
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Postby JoeTerp » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:00 pm

already in a state of corporatism, have been for a while, just a matter of degrees.  Seems to me that most Europeans get hung up on the racist side of fascism because well the most prominent fascsist states have been extremely racist.  But fascism has other evils too, its funamentally economically insolvent.  And you don't need race to be fascist, but you do need an "us" vs. "them" type of mindset.

Here, I think is a somewhat accurate picture (normally I would have inverted the top and bottom, but it doesn't really matter, its all relative, you can put me right next to rothbard:
link

IMo America is on its way from statism, to a higher level of statism. Whether its socialist or fascist doesn't really matter much to me. ALthough Fascism and Communism both start from the polar opposites on the left to right spectrum, they both moved (or exist) so far down the state control ladder that in practice, they look pretty similar
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Postby JoeTerp » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:09 pm

and although I may wish to be both more economically free and more socially free, I do recognize that everything is relative and the US is still ranked pretty well world wide:


10. Canada


Canada’s economy is 78.7% free. A strong rule of law ensures property rights, a low level of corruption, and transparent application of the country’s admittedly thorough commercial code. However, as in many European democracies, government spending is high because Canada maintains elaborate social programs and a welfare state.

9. Switzerland

Switzerland’s economy is 79.1% free. Commercial operations are protected by the regulatory environment and aided by a flexible labor market. The national financial sector leads the world and is both protective of privacy and open to foreign institutions. But as in many other European social democracies, personal income taxes are high.

8. Luxembourg

Luxembourg’s economy is 79.3% free. The average tariff rate is low (though non-tariff barriers include EU subsidies), and business regulation is efficient. The financial sector is regarded as a global financial hub that maintains depositor secrecy. However, total government spending is more than two-fifths of GDP.

7. Ireland

Ireland’s economy is 81.3% free. Entrepreneurship is made easy by the light regulatory hand of government. Inflation is low, but Ireland’s monetary score suffers somewhat from distortionary EU agricultural subsidies. Property rights are well protected by an efficient, independent judiciary.

6. United Kingdom

The United Kingdom’s economy is 81.6% free. The average tariff rate is low, although the government does implement distortionary European Union agricultural tariffs. Support for private enterprise is a world model, and the financial sector is modern and a historic world hub. The judiciary should be the envy of the world.

5. New Zealand

New Zealand’s economy is 81.6% free. A globally competitive financial system based on market principles attracts many foreign banks, helped by low inflation and low tariff rates. A strong rule of law protects property rights, and New Zealand is the world’s second most corruption-free country.

4. United States

The economy of the United States is 82% free. The average tariff rate is low, although there are several non-tariff barriers. Financial markets are open to foreign competition and are the world’s most dynamic and modern. Corruption is low and the labor market is highly flexible.

3. Australia

Australia’s economy is 82.7% free. Its low inflation and low tariff rates buttress a globally competitive financial system. A strong rule of law protects property rights and tolerates virtually no corruption. Businesses enjoy considerable flexibility in licensing, regulation and employment practices.

2. Singapore

Singapore’s economy is 85.7% free. Virtually all commercial operations are performed with transparency and speed, and private enterprise has boomed. Inflation is low, and foreign investment is welcomed and given equal treatment. There are no tariffs. Singapore’s legal system is highly protective of private property.

1. Hong Kong

Hong Kong’s economy is 89.3% free. Income and corporate tax rates are extremely low. Business regulation is simple, and the labor market is highly flexible. Inflation is low, although the government distorts the prices of several staples. Investment in Hong Kong is wide open.
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Postby Judge » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:58 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Mate, the Queen doesn't have the power to make major changes to Britain, though her position clearly carries a certain influence.

she shapes britain directly. As kharhaz says, she can rubber stamp a law, or throw it out, so to say
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Postby Judge » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:00 pm

JoeTerp wrote:and although I may wish to be both more economically free and more socially free, I do recognize that everything is relative and the US is still ranked pretty well world wide:


10. Canada


Canada’s economy is 78.7% free. A strong rule of law ensures property rights, a low level of corruption, and transparent application of the country’s admittedly thorough commercial code. However, as in many European democracies, government spending is high because Canada maintains elaborate social programs and a welfare state.

9. Switzerland

Switzerland’s economy is 79.1% free. Commercial operations are protected by the regulatory environment and aided by a flexible labor market. The national financial sector leads the world and is both protective of privacy and open to foreign institutions. But as in many other European social democracies, personal income taxes are high.

8. Luxembourg

Luxembourg’s economy is 79.3% free. The average tariff rate is low (though non-tariff barriers include EU subsidies), and business regulation is efficient. The financial sector is regarded as a global financial hub that maintains depositor secrecy. However, total government spending is more than two-fifths of GDP.

7. Ireland

Ireland’s economy is 81.3% free. Entrepreneurship is made easy by the light regulatory hand of government. Inflation is low, but Ireland’s monetary score suffers somewhat from distortionary EU agricultural subsidies. Property rights are well protected by an efficient, independent judiciary.

6. United Kingdom

The United Kingdom’s economy is 81.6% free. The average tariff rate is low, although the government does implement distortionary European Union agricultural tariffs. Support for private enterprise is a world model, and the financial sector is modern and a historic world hub. The judiciary should be the envy of the world.

5. New Zealand

New Zealand’s economy is 81.6% free. A globally competitive financial system based on market principles attracts many foreign banks, helped by low inflation and low tariff rates. A strong rule of law protects property rights, and New Zealand is the world’s second most corruption-free country.

4. United States

The economy of the United States is 82% free. The average tariff rate is low, although there are several non-tariff barriers. Financial markets are open to foreign competition and are the world’s most dynamic and modern. Corruption is low and the labor market is highly flexible.

3. Australia

Australia’s economy is 82.7% free. Its low inflation and low tariff rates buttress a globally competitive financial system. A strong rule of law protects property rights and tolerates virtually no corruption. Businesses enjoy considerable flexibility in licensing, regulation and employment practices.

2. Singapore

Singapore’s economy is 85.7% free. Virtually all commercial operations are performed with transparency and speed, and private enterprise has boomed. Inflation is low, and foreign investment is welcomed and given equal treatment. There are no tariffs. Singapore’s legal system is highly protective of private property.

1. Hong Kong

Hong Kong’s economy is 89.3% free. Income and corporate tax rates are extremely low. Business regulation is simple, and the labor market is highly flexible. Inflation is low, although the government distorts the prices of several staples. Investment in Hong Kong is wide open.

we should never have allowed cornwallis to lead the brits in the US, and we couldve killed mel gibson long before we lost the americas to them hill billies  :D
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:04 pm

Judge wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Mate, the Queen doesn't have the power to make major changes to Britain, though her position clearly carries a certain influence.

she shapes britain directly. As kharhaz says, she can rubber stamp a law, or throw it out, so to say

all she does is grant the Royal Assent and appoints the PM who is more often then not, the head of the leading political party. nothing else. im pretty sure the Commons can go ahead with an act without her consent. besides, i highly doubt she has ever rejected a Bill. can you prove me otherwise?
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Postby LFC2007 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:14 pm

Judge wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Mate, the Queen doesn't have the power to make major changes to Britain, though her position clearly carries a certain influence.

she shapes britain directly. As kharhaz says, she can rubber stamp a law, or throw it out, so to say

No she doesn't, not in her constitutional role. Royal assent is a foregone conclusion which is why no monarch has refused it in over 300 years.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:39 pm

JoeTerp wrote:already in a state of corporatism, have been for a while, just a matter of degrees.  Seems to me that most Europeans get hung up on the racist side of fascism because well the most prominent fascsist states have been extremely racist.  But fascism has other evils too, its funamentally economically insolvent.  And you don't need race to be fascist, but you do need an "us" vs. "them" type of mindset.

Here, I think is a somewhat accurate picture (normally I would have inverted the top and bottom, but it doesn't really matter, its all relative, you can put me right next to rothbard:
link

IMo America is on its way from statism, to a higher level of statism. Whether its socialist or fascist doesn't really matter much to me. ALthough Fascism and Communism both start from the polar opposites on the left to right spectrum, they both moved (or exist) so far down the state control ladder that in practice, they look pretty similar

good point. another factor regards to fascism is the police state. btw nice diagram. noticed Pinochet up there. did just a case on him where the HOL had to overturn their own conviction against him cause one of the judges was taking an interest in his case, being a member of Amnesty. surprised some people in his homeland regard him as some kind of hero after all he had done during his regime.
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Postby JoeTerp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:57 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:already in a state of corporatism, have been for a while, just a matter of degrees.  Seems to me that most Europeans get hung up on the racist side of fascism because well the most prominent fascsist states have been extremely racist.  But fascism has other evils too, its funamentally economically insolvent.  And you don't need race to be fascist, but you do need an "us" vs. "them" type of mindset.

Here, I think is a somewhat accurate picture (normally I would have inverted the top and bottom, but it doesn't really matter, its all relative, you can put me right next to rothbard:
link

IMo America is on its way from statism, to a higher level of statism. Whether its socialist or fascist doesn't really matter much to me. ALthough Fascism and Communism both start from the polar opposites on the left to right spectrum, they both moved (or exist) so far down the state control ladder that in practice, they look pretty similar

good point. another factor regards to fascism is the police state. btw nice diagram. noticed Pinochet up there. did just a case on him where the HOL had to overturn their own conviction against him cause one of the judges was taking an interest in his case, being a member of Amnesty. surprised some people in his homeland regard him as some kind of hero after all he had done during his regime.

the police state is just something that has to come with becoming more statist. I would say that both communism and fascism lead to police states.  And when I say police state, i mean overt police state. I think that the USA is a police state, thank goodness its much less overt than Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia, but we still had wire tapping under Bush, we put Japanese people in internment camps in WWII, and if I refuse to help finance the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, men with guns would break down my door and put me in a cage.
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Postby Judge » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:36 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Judge wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Mate, the Queen doesn't have the power to make major changes to Britain, though her position clearly carries a certain influence.

she shapes britain directly. As kharhaz says, she can rubber stamp a law, or throw it out, so to say

No she doesn't, not in her constitutional role. Royal assent is a foregone conclusion which is why no monarch has refused it in over 300 years.

Constitutional monarchy is a form of government in which a king or queen acts as Head of State.

The ability to make and pass legislation resides with an elected Parliament, not with the Monarch.

As a system of government, constitutional monarchy separates the Head of State’s ceremonial and official duties from party politics.

A constitutional monarchy also provides stability, continuity and a national focus, as the Head of State remains the same even as governments change.

The Sovereign/Monarch governs according to the constitution - that is, according to rules, rather than according to his or her own free will. The United Kingdom does not have a written constitution which sets out the rights and duties of the Sovereign, they are established by conventions. These are non-statutory rules which can be just as binding as formal constitutional rules.

As a constitutional monarch, the Sovereign must remain politically neutral.

On almost all matters the Sovereign acts on the advice of ministers. However, the Sovereign retains an important political role as Head of State, formally appointing prime ministers, approving certain legislation and bestowing honours.

The Sovereign has other official roles to play such as Head of the Armed Forces.


================

the bit in bold is what im referring to
Last edited by Judge on Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:50 pm

Judge, the queen is just a historical figurehead with no real importance. Parliament can pass a bill without her approval.
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