Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:32 am

cheers andy, good post and thanks for writing it, of course i respect your views and i know we can have both of the things i put in the poll, i was trying to judge the feelings, are people actually putting the squabbles before the football, that was my aim.

personally i want the football, when the playing suffers because of the owners i may change my view, but at the moment i think hicks should b given the benefit of the doubt

by **andy_g** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:41 am

as you often remind us, peewee, you first stood on the kop at the age of 6 and have been to literally hundred's of games since. you are obviously familar then with what is commonly known as the liverpool way, and this club as usually had a fairly honourable way of going about its business. and lets not forget that every single professional football club is to all extents and purposes a business. surely you have an attachment to that kind of sound running, and i'm talking about honourable as opposed to especially astute, and honesty with the fans that the club is known for. something we have all had the benefit of over the various lengths of our support.

it amazes me in the context of all this that you are prepared to back hicks so much and to put him to the back of your mind 'as long as the footie is ok'. you've surely looked at hicks's past record and seen for yourself the clear lies and constant insincerity he has spouted at us since he's been here. why do you want to give him the chance to put us deeply in the sh.it?

by **clarke90** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:46 pm

I class myself as one of those match going fan and i agree that the majority of the match going fans would want hicks out. The fact is we are the real fans who want the best for the club in the long term not just a quick success so you arm chair fans can get out your flags from the cupboard.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:03 pm

andy_g wrote:as you often remind us, peewee, you first stood on the kop at the age of 6 and have been to literally hundred's of games since. you are obviously familar then with what is commonly known as the liverpool way, and this club as usually had a fairly honourable way of going about its business. and lets not forget that every single professional football club is to all extents and purposes a business. surely you have an attachment to that kind of sound running, and i'm talking about honourable as opposed to especially astute, and honesty with the fans that the club is known for. something we have all had the benefit of over the various lengths of our support.

it amazes me in the context of all this that you are prepared to back hicks so much and to put him to the back of your mind 'as long as the footie is ok'. you've surely looked at hicks's past record and seen for yourself the clear lies and constant insincerity he has spouted at us since he's been here. why do you want to give him the chance to put us deeply in the sh.it?

sadly i feel the liverpool way went out of the window many years ago, as for hicks, i thought i made it clear i am not pro hicks, just want him to have a chance, if we are talking about past history lets not forget DIC intended to sell after a few years at a profit, they see us as an investment also so why would they be any better

by **andy_g** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:53 pm

i'm not talking about DIC being the best alternative and have never mentioned them. i also have to turn a blind eye to the corporate monster which premiership football has become to be able to carry on enjoying the sport. DIC is still a relatively unknown quantity but we know for sure that hicks has lied in the past, has generated debt and disaster in many of his sports ventures and has been leading liverpool fc and its supporters up the garden path for long enough. in the view of the vast majority he's already had his chance and has screwed it up royally.

by **JBG** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:47 pm

I know where Peewee is coming from with his original post. Yes, on the face of it, its a ridiculous question: of course we are likely to ask whether the two are not mutually exclusive but what Peewee is trying to gage is whether the Hicks issue is so important that we'd be prepared to sacrifice the CL in return for Hicks going.

One side of me thinks that a CL is a CL, if we win it it goes down as number six and there's every chance that with or without Hicks we may never win it again, so we should take whats on offer. We could have an Abromovich behind us with a £60million transfer budget ever summer and still not win it. Hicks will eventually go, be it in a year or two or ten years time, but the glory of a Champions League remains forever. I guess part of Peewee's point may be that.

However, the other part of me is disgusted Hicks' and Gillett's running of the club. While I would never describe myself as a dyed in the wool hard core fan (I live in Ireland and have only been to a few matches) I think I'm more than a simple bandwagoner and I reckon I could hold my own with any local as far as knowledge of the history of the club goes, yet will never have the same emotional attachment a local has and while I am aware of the "Liverpool way" I cannot say that its part of me and part of what I grew up with. What drew me to supporting the club as a child was the success on the park, great players on the pitch like Daglish, Whelan, Hansen, McMahon, Barnes, Rush, Aldo and Beardsley and as I got older I definitely felt LFC had more class than its rivals back in the 1980s. It was clear to me even as a teenager that there was a lack of arrogance and a large amount of humility attached to the club: it didn't have the soap opera going on in common view that UTD and the London clubs had in the 70s and 80s. I respected the values Shankly instilled in the club and the subsequent simplicity and common sense values of the bootroom. I sensed in the 90s these values probably held us back, both the bootroom and the boardroom fell behind the changing times and while this held us back on the pitch and on the turnstiles there was still something to be proud of. Peewee is correct to say that the "old way" probably eroded in the 90s as the board made some crazy decisions (Evans and Houllier) and people seem to forget that past players like Ian St. John cast the "Liverpool way" aside when they made quite public and vitrolic attacks on Houllier and his regime. People also forget about the AGMS of late 2003, 2004 and 2005 when Steve Morgan made public his attacks on David Moores, so there most definitely has been an erosion of the "Liverpool way" whether people like it or not.

However, I do believe that the likes of St. John and Morgan had Liverpool's best interests at heart and their attacks were borne out of frustration rather than the greasy till mentality of Hicks and Gillett. Hicks, by his own admission, had little or no knowledge of Liverpool FC prior to Xmas 2006 and that very fact caused me unease as even if the guy was on the level and was acting honestly he was sure to make a few mistakes and cause a few rancles. However, both he and Gillett got the fans' hopes up last year by promising the world, particularly in relation to the stadium, but have patently failed to deliver. What is more, the made their squables with Rafa public, which has never been done as far as I am aware, and then when the two of them fell out they used the Liverpool public as a weapon in their deadly power game. BOTH OF THEM have used and continue to use the loyal Liverpool supporters to beat each other over the head and it is that what I despise.

All the same, neither Hicks and Gillett are mugs, and I don't think they will allow things to get completely out of hand. Yes, they will continue to bullsh.it us on the stadium and their infighting will hold the club back insofar as I cannot see the club putting a title challenege together while this is still going on. However, I don't think the club will be ruined: money was still found for Skertel and Mascherano despite the infighting and by all accounts money will be available in the summer as well. The reason for this is despite their falling out they remain hardheaded business men and they both know that they need to keep things ticking over, to at least maintain the current level of the team, otherwise they run the risk of devaluing their investment and losing money.

What we clearly need is a single dominant power base at the club. Even Hicks taking over would be better than the current situations (and that is saying something) as as a cold nosed business man he will want to protect his investment and make it grow. However, the manner in which he would do this would be most distasteful and even if he were to take full control, I remain unconvinced whether he can get the stadium together and make sufficient funds available to take the team to the next level. Hicks has spoken of his interest in Liverpool being a long term project saying that when he goes he will pass the club onto his family, but what I think his real plan is to maintain the current level of the football team, increase revenues through merchandising and sponsorship and then sell the club on in a few years. What the club needs is an owner who is prepared to take a long term view, build the stadium and grow the revenues and increase the investment in the team so that we can challenge for the championship year in, year out. Personally I don't think that DIC are automatically the answer and there were rumours last year (which they flatly denied) that they saw their investment in Liverpool as a medium term, 8 year, project but I do have more confidence in DIC carrying through on their plans. They have money there to invest in the club to take it to the next level and I think they will invest in the club. Don't be fooled: both DIC and Tom Hicks ultimately have the same objective: to draw a dividend from the club and then sell it at a handsome profit, its just that I feel, on balance, DIC will make a greater fist at it and their objectives may be more compatible with that of the fans (in that they are more likely to get the stadium built and invest more in the team).

I think the media has made the situation much worse than it may be. There was talk two weeks ago of Liverpool having to sell Babel and Torres to repay the loan that was taken out to finance them. I cannot believe people were taken in by such creative journalism, as if Torres and Babel were purchased through hire purchase! Hicks is no fool, he won't let the club go to rack and ruin (through no other motive than to line his own pocket) but his tenure will be distasteful, controversial and would destroy the last vestiges of Shankly's own values.

So the answer to Peewee's question: yes, I would surrender a CL trophy to get Hicks out but only on the condition that we finally get a proper decent owner in instead.

by **Dundalk** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:23 pm

Win the Champions League without a doubt in my mind.

Hicks will go in the end when the right offer comes in but that 6th star will always be in our history

by **112-1077774096** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:41 am

JGB awesome post :bowdown

thanks for not buying into the 'oh its peewee so it must be bollox' momentum that some on here adopt and for actually understanding my point

by **Judge** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:12 pm

peewee wrote:JGB awesome post

thanks for not buying into the 'oh its peewee so it must be bollox' momentum that some on here adopt and for actually understanding my point

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:41 pm

Obviously winning the Champions League.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:44 pm

peewee wrote:
andy_g wrote:as you often remind us, peewee, you first stood on the kop at the age of 6 and have been to literally hundred's of games since. you are obviously familar then with what is commonly known as the liverpool way, and this club as usually had a fairly honourable way of going about its business. and lets not forget that every single professional football club is to all extents and purposes a business. surely you have an attachment to that kind of sound running, and i'm talking about honourable as opposed to especially astute, and honesty with the fans that the club is known for. something we have all had the benefit of over the various lengths of our support.

it amazes me in the context of all this that you are prepared to back hicks so much and to put him to the back of your mind 'as long as the footie is ok'. you've surely looked at hicks's past record and seen for yourself the clear lies and constant insincerity he has spouted at us since he's been here. why do you want to give him the chance to put us deeply in the sh.it?

sadly i feel the liverpool way went out of the window many years ago, as for hicks, i thought i made it clear i am not pro hicks, just want him to have a chance, if we are talking about past history lets not forget DIC intended to sell after a few years at a profit, they see us as an investment also so why would they be any better

Bull. You want to be controversial by backing a fellow Billy big-B*llocks - nothing more.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:09 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
peewee wrote:
andy_g wrote:as you often remind us, peewee, you first stood on the kop at the age of 6 and have been to literally hundred's of games since. you are obviously familar then with what is commonly known as the liverpool way, and this club as usually had a fairly honourable way of going about its business. and lets not forget that every single professional football club is to all extents and purposes a business. surely you have an attachment to that kind of sound running, and i'm talking about honourable as opposed to especially astute, and honesty with the fans that the club is known for. something we have all had the benefit of over the various lengths of our support.

it amazes me in the context of all this that you are prepared to back hicks so much and to put him to the back of your mind 'as long as the footie is ok'. you've surely looked at hicks's past record and seen for yourself the clear lies and constant insincerity he has spouted at us since he's been here. why do you want to give him the chance to put us deeply in the sh.it?

sadly i feel the liverpool way went out of the window many years ago, as for hicks, i thought i made it clear i am not pro hicks, just want him to have a chance, if we are talking about past history lets not forget DIC intended to sell after a few years at a profit, they see us as an investment also so why would they be any better

Bull. You want to be controversial by backing a fellow Billy big-B*llocks - nothing more.

shows just how little you know :sleep

by **Judge** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:19 am

lando. maybe peewees comments are controversial, but not intentional as this is his opinion mate

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue May 06, 2008 12:36 am

bit late now considering we're out of europe, but i still went for the european cup success. me reasons are in the takeover thread but for those who haven't seen them, i'll repeat meself, with the odd word changed here and there.

to start off with, I don't want Hicks at this club. no fan of this club should as he's making us look worse as the days go on. but i wouldn't swap that for success. those of you who've whinged about us being in debt, well we'd be in debt whoever takes over as pretty much every club has debts to pay off. those of you who whinge that "top players won't want to join" well a fair amount of players would jump at the chance to play for the european cup winners.

we are Liverpool Football Club after all. So that to me says football must come first. one way of looking at it is, would you rather liverpool were relegated just to see the back of hicks, or would you want us to succeed but still with hicks as owner. that to me is a no brainer. i know and understand what those who want hicks out are saying and how he's destroying liverpool, but for me success on the pitch will always be more important than the off the scenes antics.

hicks is at this club to get as much money as he possibly can out of it. one way to earn money to see the back of him is to win trophies. i'd settle for us winning the league next year, hicks taking all the prize money that offers and fucking off leaving us potless. that way we win the league and get rid of hicks, with a new owner of the club whoever that owner may be.

i'm not one of these who is thinkin about the short term either. success now, steadies a side for the long term as well. we win the european cup...we sign reina and crouch, two players who helped us crown fa cup glory. we get to the european cup final...we sign torres and mascherano (permanantly), two players who will probably be here for a long time, ensuring the long term option as well. one other way of lookin at it and one that goes out to all the ones who believe benitez is the right man...one way for him to be here in the long term is to succeed now. had he not won the european cup in 2005, i doubt he'd still be here now personally, but that success meant he bought himself an extra couple of years. so if benitez leads the team to glory (premiership ideally) next year he'll of saved his job for another few years. that's the way it works.

so overall, i'd prefer success on the pitch than the behind the scenes problems being sorted out because it ensures the long term future, it ensures more top class players wanting to come to anfield and it ensures hicks gets more money that might make him think he's got enough to piss off and we can go back to being successful both on and off the pitch.

one little other point, peewee and bob kiss and make up lads. peewee as a "life long red" you should know as well anybody that we don't turn on our fans and you're as bad as anyone pal. in every post in here you've made your own little snide remarks and insults, so just leave it mate. bob you're not blameless either because you do stir it up knowing a reaction is coming. so both leave it out, if you don't get on then don't read each other's posts eh? (peewee before you go off on one, i haven't jumped on any bandwagon or anything like that because i'm one of the few who actually thinks you speak sense more often than not, just calm down a bit because you're doing yourself no favours)

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:03 am

I thought you wanted the league title John? As long as we have such massive debt with horrendous interest payments, the CL WILL ALWAYS be our priority. Failure to reach the knockout stages would be disasterous, while as long as we sail along in the league coming top four, winning it will be secondary.

So our season will be planned on ensuring CL football to at least the K.O. stage rather than an all out attempt to become League champions.

Hicks and Gillett took out loans to pay for Torres and Masch while also taking out a further loan for £40million for contingencies (what the fk are they?) and for transfers for this summer. How long can we afford to keep borrowing more money? The stadium that is supposed to service the debt is no nearer being built now than it was when it was first suggested 20 odd years ago.

The £10/20million we have been receiving from our CL runs is now not only desirable but it is becoming imperitive for the club to pay its debts. We all saw what happened this season as soon as CL exit looked likely, no doubt next season will be the same.

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