Liverpool FC Forum

by **NANNY RED** » Tue May 05, 2009 6:50 pm

metalhead wrote:I have a feeling that Alonso may leave this summer

Be quiet please Metalhead :;):

Werve you been anyway, ive missed our late night chats :laugh:

by **metalhead** » Tue May 05, 2009 6:55 pm

NANNY RED wrote:
metalhead wrote:I have a feeling that Alonso may leave this summer

Be quiet please Metalhead

Werve you been anyway, ive missed our late night chats

stuck in the middle of the desert nanny...

work has been keeping me busy the past months.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:44 pm

Good post Bad Bob there

beyond the "D" waiting for the pullback or rebound to fall to him for a cleaner strike on target.

Linguistic question, do you all call it the "D" ? No other names like, say, the crown of the box as we say here?

by **bigmick** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:23 pm

Yup, it's the "D" Sabes.

Some good and interesting posts here, I particularly like Bob's breakdown of the respective roles of Masherano and Alonso. I wouldn't dispute any of that and it's well explained, but I guess where I'm coming from is looking at how we can improve from this season to next. I suppose it's one of the reasons why I'd be fairly happy to go into next season with broadly the same team, I think with a little bit of fine tuning and Torres staying fit we can do well again.

I do feel though that the direct consequences of us playing more attacking have to be looked at. we are obviously going to ask our defenders to do more defending for instance, which so far against decent teams they have struggled at. If though we make the assumption that yes we will concede a couple more goals from playing this way, obviously we are looking to be a wee bit more potent, particularly against the bus parkers. As none of our midfield with the exception of Kuyt (who I maintain plays as kind of an inside right in any case) provides a goal threat, it is an area in which we can definately improve IMHO. That doesn't mean we have to sell Masherano, or indeed Alonso, but I'm fairly sure that if either thing comes to pass that'll be the reason why.

My guess is though that neither will in fact come to pass. I think Barry will be brought into the fold, but that the signing will indicate that Gerrard's days as a midfielder under Rafa are officially over. I think he will become the number 2/3 midfielder, and that in all likelyhood we will keep Lucas as the number 4. Signing Barry will effectively allow Gerrard to replace the slot which Keane took up (can't say filled really) at the start of this season.

As I've said a couple of times now, I'm actually increasingly coming round to the idea that a centre half ought to be right at the top of the list of priorities. Not just a number four to replace Hyppia either, a number one. If we had either Ferdinand or Vidic then we'd be talking.

by **NANNY RED** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:33 pm

bigmick wrote:.

My guess is though that neither will in fact come to pass. I think Barry will be brought into the fold, but that the signing will indicate that Gerrard's days as a midfielder under Rafa are officially over. I think he will become the number 2/3 midfielder, and that in all likelyhood we will keep Lucas as the number 4. Signing Barry will effectively allow Gerrard to replace the slot which Keane took up (can't say filled really) at the start of this season.

I knew i couldnt keep me nose out of here for to long . :laugh:

I hope your right with that Mick, id take that scenario no problem,

by **Alex G.** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:49 pm

bigmick wrote:I think Barry will be brought into the fold, but that the signing will indicate that Gerrard's days as a midfielder under Rafa are officially over.

And Gerrard will be the happiest man in the world, Bigmick.

by **bigmick** » Tue May 05, 2009 10:37 pm

Alex G. wrote:
bigmick wrote:I think Barry will be brought into the fold, but that the signing will indicate that Gerrard's days as a midfielder under Rafa are officially over.

And Gerrard will be the happiest man in the world, Bigmick.

Oh no doubt about it mate. I think Gerrard probably sees his best role as the one he currently fills, and it's hard to argue with him. needless to say I will anyway because what do he and Rafa know

, but seriously I've got no bother with it.

You need to be keeping the Torres/Gerrard axis available for ALL games in which they are fit. There seems little point to me in getting them both fit, only to see Masherano get injured and have to drop Gerrard back into midfield for six matches (although he's improved you couldn't in all seriousness expect Lucas to fill such a hole). Once Barry comes in (if indeed he does and I think he will) then he will fill that slot, as well as left midfield or left back if needed. He could possibly at a push even fill in for Gerrard in his spot too, so it's a signing I can see lots of sense in.

As for Gerrard and his best position, I did come under a withering attack a few weeks back from a poster who said I was always on about Gerrards best position being central midfield. I've never said such a thing of course but that doesn't stop such people, details like that aren't important when you're off on one. I have said many times that I really like Gerrard wide right where he is a fantastic player, although given how much he appears to hate it he'd probably be playing for somebody esle by now if we'd continued to play him there. I've also said a few times that he'd probably be a World class right back if he played there, and my guess is that he'd make a top centre half as well.

Obviously he is a World class central midfielder, but he's pretty good at this "off the striker" role as well it has to be said. Although his goals per game ratio (22 in 31 or whatever the feck it is) isn't enough to convince some supporters, I think most out and out strikers would be fairly pleased with that, never mind ones that do it in a supporting role. He did it last season as well so it isn't a fluke, come to think of it he does it every season and no doubt he will next season as well, but anyway that's by the by.

He's obviously happy to play where he is, Torres obviously likes playing with him there, and we've got good midfielders to take up the mantle. It all makes sense to me.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 05, 2009 11:50 pm

I do feel though that the direct consequences of us playing more attacking have to be looked at. we are obviously going to ask our defenders to do more defending for instance, which so far against decent teams they have struggled at

I think it's indeed a key point to be discussed, because it's a reality sometimes we have been struggling when we have exposed our CB more.

Then that could bring the debate about if it's simple adaptation price, or that right now, our CB are not good enough, and I think both corners can be debatable.

I have trust in Carra and Agger. I have some doubts about Skrtel, but I also know the best of most CB comes with age.

In any case, I think that it's most reasonable to consider a CB as a priority buy, especially now Hyypia is gone. I have to admit that I didn't realise that when I answered a what we need to buy thread.

I think that we will try to bring one, the problem is that I don't know you, but top of the top CB are not very abundant these days.

by **heimdall** » Tue May 05, 2009 11:59 pm

I like Alonso and Mascha against quality opponents and Alonso Barry against park the bus teams, that would give us a much better cutting edge. Plus Barry could play on the right or left midfield as well. That would be a massive asset to the squad. I still think we need another good striker, is getting Tevez on loan completely out of the question? I really like Tevez and cannot fathom why Whiskey nose has not played him more, mind you they seem to be doing ok.

by **JC_81** » Wed May 06, 2009 12:04 am

heimdall wrote:I like Alonso and Mascha against quality opponents and Alonso Barry against park the bus teams, that would give us a much better cutting edge. Plus Barry could play on the right or left midfield as well. That would be a massive asset to the squad. I still think we need another good striker, is getting Tevez on loan completely out of the question? I really like Tevez and cannot fathom why Whiskey nose has not played him more, mind you they seem to be doing ok.

When has Barry ever played right midfield? Probably his main weakness is that he has no right foot. Personally I only rate him as a central midfielder. Not mobile enough for a modern attacking left back and not skilful enough to be a left mid. That said, I agree he'd strengthen the squad if he came in. For 8 mil I'd sign him.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed May 06, 2009 3:46 am

Sign who you like provided Xabi stays in the team in his current position.

by **Owzat** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:51 am

Sabre wrote:
I do feel though that the direct consequences of us playing more attacking have to be looked at. we are obviously going to ask our defenders to do more defending for instance, which so far against decent teams they have struggled at

I think it's indeed a key point to be discussed, because it's a reality sometimes we have been struggling when we have exposed our CB more.

Then that could bring the debate about if it's simple adaptation price, or that right now, our CB are not good enough, and I think both corners can be debatable.

I have trust in Carra and Agger. I have some doubts about Skrtel, but I also know the best of most CB comes with age.

In any case, I think that it's most reasonable to consider a CB as a priority buy, especially now Hyypia is gone. I have to admit that I didn't realise that when I answered a what we need to buy thread.

I think that we will try to bring one, the problem is that I don't know you, but top of the top CB are not very abundant these days.

We've conceded a number of goals due to mistakes (vs Arsenal), absent marking (vs Chelsea, 1st leg) and due to the pushing too much when 2-0 up in search of the necessary 3rd (vs Chelsea, 2nd leg)

Maybe the team does need to reign in the attacking a bit in some situations, but with Mascherano and Alonso on the pitch we shouldn't have defensive shortages, there should never be that many players committed to attacks with no cover.

Against Arsenal it was sloppy mistakes, take any one of those out eg Aurelio's attempted clearance, and we'd have won 4-3 and be talking of a "thriller". Against Chelsea the aggregate was contributed to by zonal marking or lack of, and the knock-on consequence of an all too open 2nd leg. Other than those three games we've been as solid this season as any other. Do people easily forget the 1-3 and 3-6 defeats to Arsenal in consecutive cup matches, it happens from time to time against top sides.

GOALS CONCEDED (RAFA ERA)

04/05 : 56 in 60 games (0.93 goals/game)
05/06 : 44 in 62 games (0.71 goals/game)
06/07 : 52 in 58 games (0.90 goals/game)
07/08 : 50 in 59 games (0.85 goals/game)
08/09 : 45 in 52 games (0.87 goals/game)

Apart from our excellent 05/06 season when we won nine in a row in the league and also 10 in a row, we've conceded consistently over the course of the seasons. This will be our shortest season in terms of games played, falling three short of previous seasons with no Champions League semi or cup runs to speak of. Further evidence that Champions League and Cup runs distract from the league as we're closer to challenging for/winning the league than before.

We ducked out of the Champions League at the last 16 stage, but still notched up 62 games (our most under Rafa) Maybe without our FA Cup run, extra CL qualifiers and the Club World Championship, we could have done even better in the league and have inched closer by now instead of getting wrapped up in Champions League runs every season. With all their distractions the mancs are still in for three proper trophies, I don't doubt if they do it that it will be called another "treble". They've ridden their luck, that is for sure. Scraping past a pub team 1-0 to win the Club World Championship, beating spudz on penalties in the Carling Cup, two fortunate goals to see off Arsenal in the CL semi, having been lucky with the draw to boot, and even in the Community Shield they needed penalties to win. With all those games they've had to play, and the lack of them we've had, we can only get as close as we are now.

Cue money as an excuse, even though we have spent more money than the two sides that beat us in the league and all 11 that drew with us...............

by **bunglemark2** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:54 am

Good points there mate. We sure didn't need to spend 20M each on a few players to overcome the likes of Fulham, Stoke, West Ham or some of the other non-sides we drew with at home this year. So no, money is not an excuse...

by **Sabre** » Wed May 06, 2009 9:37 am

The we have spent more than the other two sides fallacy had been already destroyed by Tomkins so I won't revisit it.

There's still some new points to disagree in your post Owzat

Maybe the team does need to reign in the attacking a bit in some situations, but with Mascherano and Alonso on the pitch we shouldn't have defensive shortages, there should never be that many players committed to attacks with no cover.

I can't really disagree more. A bet for more of an attacking game will be paid even if your midfielders are top quality as Mascherano and Alonso.

Football is not a game in which you analyse two players quality and that's it, How players perform in the pitch has a lot to do with how the team as a whole plays, and one player's quality will be always dependant to his team mates. Examples of this there are thousands. You have the example that some mate has written in the other thread, Fabregas can be a quality player, but without Flamini he can't shine.

Alonso and Mascherano are top class midfielders, they distribute well, and they defend well, so is that enough to go Gung Ho and develop a more attacking game? No, because if you go attacking you have to have posession. If you go attacking, you only can afford to lose balls in some situations. And to achieve that you need quality wingers. For me Riera, without being top quality, has helped a lot in this posession and dominance we've seen often this season, and that's a game you can't do with Babel, even if your midfield axis is top quality.

When you want to advance your line and want to have Alonso nearer the box more often, your CB must be up to it too. Some are up to it, some aren't. As much as I rate Carraguer, I think that if a Barcelona styled team came for one of our CB that would be Agger, who's the better suited for that attacking football.

My disagreement point is that it's not enough to have some pieces to say you can go to attack, even if they're quality, it depends on the surroundings too, pretty much as having Buffon with a poor defence won't keep your goal safe.

So you see, to the question of "why Rafa didn't go to a more attacking game before this season?" for me the answer is because he couldn't.

As for we've been conceding consistently in Rafa era, will you be so kind to extend the data of goals received prior to Rafa era? just for the sake of learning how we're in the wrong way defensively?

by **stmichael** » Wed May 06, 2009 12:12 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
heimdall wrote:Alonso is very good at distributing the ball no question there but Mascha is the DM so that should give Xabi the opportunity to venture further forward and bag some goals but he's never really tried to do this, he doesn't seem comfortable shooting at goal which is a bit weird. I think this is one of the main differences still between us and manure (perhaps not at this exact moment) i.e the fact that most of the 11 players on the manure team sheet have the ability to pop up and score vital goals whilst we are stuck with only about 4-5, good as they are.

I don't think it's quite so cut and dried, mate. Yes, Mascherano is the defensive midfielder but, like Sissoko before him, he has the license to roam about the pitch and hunt the ball. Perhaps he doesn't quite get as far forward in doing so as Sissoko used to do on occasion but he's not the kind of static, sit deep and shield the back four defensive midfielder that Makelele was, for instance. So, I don't think we can take it as read that his job is simply to sit in while Alonso pushes up.

On the other side of the coin, Alonso starts from deep for a very important reason, IMO. It gives him time to receive the ball from defenders and turn to look for the pass. He's got quick feet, as I said above, but he's a bit of a slow turner so he needs to drop deep to find the space to get on the ball in a way that he feels comfortable with. I think we'd see him struggle if we asked him to sit 10 yards further forward when receiving the ball from the back, as someone would be right on top of him every time. If he's to be effective for us at all--and we've seen him playing effective football all season--he needs time to get turned and spot the pass. To his credit, once he's turned he's lightning at spotting the right pass and distributing the ball quickly, so he's not really slowing us down by sitting deep and spraying the ball around.

I guess it all comes down to how much stock people put in goals scored from CM. If you absolutely insist that a CM be on the scoresheet 5-10 a season then you're probably going to be a bit disappointed in Xabi's play. If, however, you see his role more as starting the moves that result in goals, I think you come to appreciate his play more.

As for his willingness to shoot, Sabre makes a good point that much depends on his teammates. If he starts the move in his own centre circle and then pushes up to join the attack near or in the box, much depends on how his teammates use the ball in the build-up. I would add here that we are not a team that commits a lot bodies into the box looking for crosses, which means that a lot of our attackers end up floating along the edge of the opponents' box. We see Riera, Benayoun, Gerrard, Kuyt and even Torres doing a lot of there work out there. As a result, Alonso doesn't really have a lot of space to operate in. Rushing into the same areas will often just congest things further and trying to execute a strike on goal from outside the area through a crowd of bodies is low percentage so what might look like an unwillingness to shoot might just be good smart play. I think if we saw more of our attackers flooding the box looking for crosses from the fullbacks, we might see more of Alonso arriving in space beyond the "D" waiting for the pullback or rebound to fall to him for a cleaner strike on target.

I know the general concencious is that Xabi should play higher up the pitch because of his quality of passing, but I slightly disagree. On the edge of the oppositions box, if the right run is made then any professional football can slip a short ball through a gap. If they can’t they shouldn’t be playing the game. It often looks the the player playing the ball is picking out a clever pass, but it’s the run that makes it. That’s not something Xabi is particularly good at. He isn’t the most mobile, or the quickest turning – and he certainly doesn’t like to commit himself as the man furthest forward. I think we’d be better off letting him sit further back nearer the half way line and being a constant back up option for the wide players, and let him dictate the tempo and direction of our possession game.

Mashcerano has more of an engine about him, and I bet given the freedom, would love to burst into the box late, which is one of the best ways to crack open a tight back 7. His quick feet in and around the box mixed with bursts through gaps could really benefit. Like I say, his passing isn’t the best, but again, any professional footballer can play an 8 yard pass through a gap. This with the ability to press early and high, as well as the energy and pace to get back and forth when required, then he could be moulded into a very rounded midfielder – still having that big game, defend first mentality etched in the back of his mind for when they come along.

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