Liverpool FC Forum

[supersub]

you live in a tiny tiny world my friend !

You know what they say, it's a small world























But I wouldn't want to paint it 

in deed it is

[Sabre]

Discussing on values is very relative. I value players mainly for the quality, not the form.

Meaning, does Mascherano cost less this season than the last?

If he does, in my eyes, it shouldn't be because his form is not as good as last season, but because his contract is a year closer to his end. Form IMHO could and does increase/decrease value, but in my very humble and personal opinion it shouldn't bring dramatic changes.

According to Mascherano's form last year, many said he was a world class holding mid. This season he's got less praises, and he has suffered from the summer competition. But in my eyes his value shouldn't decrease to almost half of his value! it's just a more average season, but we're talking about a lot of quality.

[Bad Bob]

It's metamorphasised a few times has this thread, and it's current incarnation is quite good. Just to revisit a couple of points, on Bob's one that moving Gerrard back would be a mistake. I actually agree mate and although it wasn't that clear in my original post, I wasn't actually advocating doing such a thing. I very much go along with your theory that if we really haven't got any money, lets just keep what we've got aside from obvious fire sale players (Dossena and the like) and just go for it again next season. I definately wouldn't be up for breaking up the Torres/Gerrard axis, I was simply making the point that neither Masherano nor Alonso offer any goal threat to speak of. If Gerrard did play there, or a similarly attack minded player, they would score more goals than either Masherano or Alonso. Funnily enough, I had in my mind the old Valencia player Barrago or whatever the feck he was called (I swear I've got alzheimers or something, I can't remember feck all these days). He was a central midfielder who seemed to have the art of providing a goal threat pretty much perfected, he certainly did whenever they played against us anyway. My point was that even though Barry isn't as good a player as Alonso, he definately would provide more goal threat IMHO. Once again not saying I'd necessarily be up for the swap (and I wouldn't without a financial kick for the experience) but if the manager changed it on that basis, I'd understand it. there is the other option which Ace alluded to, which is changing Masherano for a more attack minded midfielder, and dropping Xabi back into the pocket. I personally don't like either element of that idea though.

Mick, this question of goals gets me thinking about Xabi's role in central midfield in our 4-2-3-1 formation.  You've long been an advocate of him advancing 10 yards up the pitch so that he and Masch aren't within hand-holding distance in the centre circle.  By suggesting that that partnership is still a work in progress (as you said in your previous post) I gather you see some improvement in that regard but would like to see more?  I wonder though.  The last few games I've noticed that Xabi is almost always the one to drop deep into the centre circle and look to collect the ball off the centre backs.  Masch, in these situations, seems to be pulling out toward the left flank or advancing slightly up field to give Xabi the space to turn and pick his pass.  Now, it looks like a nothing job, offering the short option to the CB who doesn't want to venture too far forward and who sees that the fullback is being closed down but I think Xabi does this role very well.  He's got good awareness and can sense when he's got company, in which case he sends the ball right back from where it came and repositions for a return pass in more space.  Most of the time, though, he manages to collect and turn and look for a pass upfield.  He can do this even with opponents around because, while he may not be the quickest player, he has quick feet (just ask Barton and others who have seen red against him this season! ).  In other words, he seems to be doing better at avoiding being crowded out and harried off the ball this season.  Once he turns, his first pass is almost always positive: a crisp ball up to Gerrard or Kuyt or Benayoun, or a raking ball out to the flanks.  If those aren't on, he'll use Masch for a 1-2 or he'll look to spread the play to the fullbacks on the flank.  What I'm getting at here is that we are seeing him play that "deep lying playmaker" role that Pirlo has mastered and, as a result, we perhaps must cut him some slack for not getting forward to often.  Mascherano seems more prone to venturing forward (much like Sissoko did) and making up the numbers in attack.  That has it's problems given Masch's decision-making at times (although he's a better distributor of the ball than many give him credit for...he can play a beautiful weighted ball out to the flanks and he can whip in a lovely cross if he finds himself out there as well) but he does have more of the engine to get up and down the pitch.

Anyways, rambling a bit here.  What I'm wondering, I guess, is whether the role Xabi plays limits his opportunities to get forward and thus to score goals?  If that's the case, the follow up question would be whether he should be doing a different role or whether we should just accept that this is his game and not bemoan his lack of goals**?










**On the subject of goals, I wonder how much that has to do with the fact that Gerrard takes most of the right-footed free kicks from dangerous positions when fit.  Alonso only seems to get a crack if Gerrard's out of the side.  Of course, he's had a few opportunities to try his luck this season and has been far from stellar but I think it's part of the equation.  Surely some of the CMs he's being compared to in terms of goal tally get plenty of opportunities from free kicks?

[stmichael]

In all fairness to Xabi, if it wasn't for the woodwork, Xabi would nearly be in double figures for goals this season.

Bigmick is referring to Ruben Baraja who was actually Valencia's top scorer one season with something like eight goals.

That season, their best combination being David Abelda and Ruben Baraja occupying the "2" in the middle of midfield. One of the key features of this team saw these 2 hunt as a pack in midfield, and was impressive to watch both for Valencia and sometimes Spain. The main men in midfield in this system for Liverpool, Alonso and Mascherano, do not really work in this way. However one thing you can say in defence of this is that Albelda and Baraja, if they were compared to any Liverpool players, would probably be compared to Hamann (when he was here) and Gerrard respectively.

[LiverpoolMadman]

I think with this sell on clause for Real Socieadad if Rafa does sell him it has to be in the 28 - 30Mil region.

The only club that can afford 30mil now is Man City but if Man City wants him , we can sell him at 20 mil plus M.Johnson ( NO BARRY , please )

[heimdall]

Alonso is very good at distributing the ball no question there but Mascha is the DM so that should give Xabi the opportunity to venture further forward and bag some goals but he's never really tried to do this, he doesn't seem comfortable shooting at goal which is a bit weird. I think this is one of the main differences still between us and manure (perhaps not at this exact moment) i.e the fact that most of the 11 players on the manure team sheet have the ability to pop up and score vital goals whilst we are stuck with only about 4-5, good as they are.

[mkingdom]

Alonso has been one of our best players this season so why sell him?  I don't care if we get offered £25 or £30m, he is at his peak now, and we need to have those types of players in our team and squad, not someone elses.

I hear talk of selling Lucas for £6m.  Now that makes sense, especially with Barry being valued at around £9m due to the stage of his contract.

Barry can play in many different positions, so I would have him over Lucas any day.

So a choice between Masch, Alonso and Barry for a midfield two is fine, and also Barry can play left mid when we need to be compact, and can even cover LB if we have an injury disaster.

However, bringing in Barry at the expense of Alonso is madness, and I truly hope it doesn't happen.

[DrPepe]

Alonso is very good at distributing the ball no question there but Mascha is the DM so that should give Xabi the opportunity to venture further forward and bag some goals but he's never really tried to do this, he doesn't seem comfortable shooting at goal which is a bit weird. I think this is one of the main differences still between us and manure (perhaps not at this exact moment) i.e the fact that most of the 11 players on the manure team sheet have the ability to pop up and score vital goals whilst we are stuck with only about 4-5, good as they are.

i don't agree with this post at all

alonso 's scoring record comes in at just under 1 in 10 since being in at the club (18/199)

part of this time wasn't spent under the current system

he rarely takes our penalties, or our direct free kicks

Yet his scoring record is better than carrick (11 in 138 at united) and very similar to essien (1 in 10)

[stmichael]

United's central midfield (even Scholes) isn't really a goal threat at all. Vidic has score more goals than Fletcher, Carrick, Scholes and Anderson combined this year.

[tubby]

That's becasue he is coming to the end of his career. A few years ago he would always get into double digits,

[Sabre]

On the amount of goals of Alonso, I have to add the following.

It's clear that Alonso's game has been more attacking this season, and if we analysed how many shots he's tried we'd see an increase.

Ending the plays in a shot requires good movement of the team first, but I'd say it's pretty clear Alonso has gone upper to try those.

This season, as much he has been better, he hasn't been particularly accurate in the shots, but I think that if he continues at this shooting ratio, he'll score more goals next season this way.

[stmichael]

His pass completion the other day was something like 92% which is quite frankly staggering. Most players can't do that, even in training.

[Bad Bob]

Alonso is very good at distributing the ball no question there but Mascha is the DM so that should give Xabi the opportunity to venture further forward and bag some goals but he's never really tried to do this, he doesn't seem comfortable shooting at goal which is a bit weird. I think this is one of the main differences still between us and manure (perhaps not at this exact moment) i.e the fact that most of the 11 players on the manure team sheet have the ability to pop up and score vital goals whilst we are stuck with only about 4-5, good as they are.

I don't think it's quite so cut and dried, mate.  Yes, Mascherano is the defensive midfielder but, like Sissoko before him, he has the license to roam about the pitch and hunt the ball.  Perhaps he doesn't quite get as far forward in doing so as Sissoko used to do on occasion but he's not the kind of static, sit deep and shield the back four defensive midfielder that Makelele was, for instance.  So, I don't think we can take it as read that his job is simply to sit in while Alonso pushes up.

On the other side of the coin, Alonso starts from deep for a very important reason, IMO.  It gives him time to receive the ball from defenders and turn to look for the pass.  He's got quick feet, as I said above, but he's a bit of a slow turner so he needs to drop deep to find the space to get on the ball in a way that he feels comfortable with.  I think we'd see him struggle if we asked him to sit 10 yards further forward when receiving the ball from the back, as someone would be right on top of him every time.  If he's to be effective for us at all--and we've seen him playing effective football all season--he needs time to get turned and spot the pass.  To his credit, once he's turned he's lightning at spotting the right pass and distributing the ball quickly, so he's not really slowing us down by sitting deep and spraying the ball around.

I guess it all comes down to how much stock people put in goals scored from CM.  If you absolutely insist that a CM be on the scoresheet 5-10 a season then you're probably going to be a bit disappointed in Xabi's play.  If, however, you see his role more as starting the moves that result in goals, I think you come to appreciate his play more.

As for his willingness to shoot, Sabre makes a good point that much depends on his teammates.  If he starts the move in his own centre circle and then pushes up to join the attack near or in the box, much depends on how his teammates use the ball in the build-up.  I would add here that we are not a team that commits a lot bodies into the box looking for crosses, which means that a lot of our attackers end up floating along the edge of the opponents' box.  We see Riera, Benayoun, Gerrard, Kuyt and even Torres doing a lot of there work out there.  As a result, Alonso doesn't really have a lot of space to operate in.  Rushing into the same areas will often just congest things further and trying to execute a strike on goal from outside the area through a crowd of bodies is low percentage so what might look like an unwillingness to shoot might just be good smart play.  I think if we saw more of our attackers flooding the box looking for crosses from the fullbacks, we might see more of Alonso arriving in space beyond the "D" waiting for the pullback or rebound to fall to him for a cleaner strike on target.

[NANNY RED]

Just coming in for a nose Bob im not saying nothing

[metalhead]

I have a feeling that Alonso may leave this summer