Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:45 pm

It wasn't me trying to claim that Alonso was an attacking midfielder.

I think the question is more of is the Alonso role in the Alonso Mascherano parternship its own form of holding midfield that can have its own sub category "deep-lying playmaker" OR is it more if you stick Alonso in a DM role, this is how he will play/interpret it, and naturally it will look slightly different from how Mascherano plays/interprets the same DM role because they have different qualities and tendencies.

From wiki:
Deep-lying playmaker
Some players prefer to set up an attack from a withdrawn position, and are often coined deep-lying playmakers, mainly because of their ability to spread play and dictate the game from a withdrawn position. Despite their deep role, they are not classed as defensive midfielders as tackling and defence are not the main function of their roles - they may have to be supported by a holding midfielder.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:13 pm

JoeTerp wrote:Despite their deep role, they are not classed as defensive midfielders as tackling and defence are not the main function of their roles - they may have to be supported by a holding midfielder.

Alonso puts in his fair share of tackles and doesn't bottle out of challenges. His defensive positioning is also sound** so he's not such a "deep lying playmaker" that he requires a 'proper' DM next to him. The fact that Rafa is currently opting to play him with Gerrard in a 4-4-2 says as much.

**BTW, I think that Masch is a stronger tackler than Alonso and that his engine means that he has better capacity to recover. Alonso, by contrast, must rely on his defensive positioning not to get skinned because he doesn't have the recovery pace. You can see when he doesn't have his positioning spot on pretty easily because it usually results in a free kick or a booking. Going forward, Masch is more likely to drive forward with the ball at his feet while Alonso prefers to sit back in pockets of space and ping passes about. In other words, passing is his mode of attack more so than dribbling.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:19 pm

JoeTerp wrote:It wasn't me trying to claim that Alonso was an attacking midfielder.

I know mate, it was more a answer to the deep lying midfielder question.

Do you remember Ivan Campo? The ugly player at Bolton that has a sister who looks like him, yet she's hot? (I know it's difficult to understand that but it's true, she works near my house).

He was a CB in Spain, and in Bolton decided to make him a holding mid once and for all. He'd start the plays of his team, while he tries to destroy as much as possible of the oppo team with positioning and being a good header. He shares with Alonso the position, and the pace, both aren't quick. What makes Alonso a deep lying playmaker, his vision then? I think that's just a difference in quality (as much as I think Campo was a good signing for the premier and for Bolton).

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:33 pm

What makes Alonso a deep - lying playmaker rather than a defensive midfield player is (imo)he is just not good enough defensively to be classed as a holding player or defensive midfielder. Like Pirlo he has to rely on others to help him out. When played in a 2 with Gerrard he tends to stay deep so that any player advancing at pace can't just kick the ball past him because the cb's are there. Similar to how Hyypia coped with his own lack of pace..... good positioning a deep back line and using his goalkeeper.

Like Pirlo he makes up for this handicap by excellent passing ability AND intelligent play, but handicap it is..... no matter how well hidden most of the time.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:05 pm

S@int, Bad Bob describes perfectly two different ways of playing when we haven't the ball.

While I disagree, I respect and understand you like more Mascherano's style, and that you consider him a better player.

But that does make Alonso a weak defensive midfielder? No!!

Remember when Alonso came, who sat down main and mostly? Hamman, who appeared when Alonso wan't there? Hamman. That was his role, the same role but with a few quality bonus in his game -- Hamman is a player I used to praise a lot aswell, I like him a lot, so sober.

Alonso is a very good defensive midfield and I think that against Everton for instance he did a lot of back watching this role requires. Mascherano a better player? fair enough, football is a matter of opinions. Alonso not capable of being a very good holding mid? I disagree.

Pirlo? I only know him in the international stage (9 or 10 games of him I've seen) but he seems to me a bit different player mate. In his ability to pass they're similar, but in their body build, strenght and pace aren't, are they? I wouldn't play for what I've seen Pirlo as a lone holding mid, while I'd play Alonso happily that position of "4", in Alonso's case "14", because Hyypia has the number.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:26 pm

Sabre wrote:S@int, Bad Bob describes perfectly two different ways of playing when we haven't the ball.

While I disagree, I respect and understand you like more Mascherano's style, and that you consider him a better player.

But that does make Alonso a weak defensive midfielder? No!!

Remember when Alonso came, who sat down main and mostly? Hamman, who appeared when Alonso wan't there? Hamman. That was his role, the same role but with a few quality bonus in his game -- Hamman is a player I used to praise a lot aswell, I like him a lot, so sober.

Alonso is a very good defensive midfield and I think that against Everton for instance he did a lot of back watching this role requires. Mascherano a better player? fair enough, football is a matter of opinions. Alonso not capable of being a very good holding mid? I disagree.

Pirlo? I only know him in the international stage (9 or 10 games of him I've seen) but he seems to me a bit different player mate. In his ability to pass they're similar, but in their body build, strenght and pace aren't, are they? I wouldn't play for what I've seen Pirlo as a lone holding mid, while I'd play Alonso happily that position of "4", in Alonso's case "14", because Hyypia has the number.

I wasn't arguing who is better Sabre, I could do almost as good a job picking holes in Masch's game mate, I was just trying to show why I think Alonso is not a genuine DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER.

Hamman/ Masch/ even Gerrard when he played that role , didn't just sit deep and break up play, they broke up play all over the middle of the park. Alonso can't do that, he has to try to hide his weaknesses by sitting deep most of the time, thats why even when we are chasing a game, unless we have a genuine defensive midfielder playing along side him ...... he stays back!

A player goes past Alonso and its a foul/booking/or goal scoring opportunity. He's not going to catch them is he?

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:56 pm

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:S@int, Bad Bob describes perfectly two different ways of playing when we haven't the ball.

While I disagree, I respect and understand you like more Mascherano's style, and that you consider him a better player.

But that does make Alonso a weak defensive midfielder? No!!

Remember when Alonso came, who sat down main and mostly? Hamman, who appeared when Alonso wan't there? Hamman. That was his role, the same role but with a few quality bonus in his game -- Hamman is a player I used to praise a lot aswell, I like him a lot, so sober.

Alonso is a very good defensive midfield and I think that against Everton for instance he did a lot of back watching this role requires. Mascherano a better player? fair enough, football is a matter of opinions. Alonso not capable of being a very good holding mid? I disagree.

Pirlo? I only know him in the international stage (9 or 10 games of him I've seen) but he seems to me a bit different player mate. In his ability to pass they're similar, but in their body build, strenght and pace aren't, are they? I wouldn't play for what I've seen Pirlo as a lone holding mid, while I'd play Alonso happily that position of "4", in Alonso's case "14", because Hyypia has the number.

I wasn't arguing who is better Sabre, I could do almost as good a job picking holes in Masch's game mate, I was just trying to show why I think Alonso is not a genuine DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER.

Hamman/ Masch/ even Gerrard when he played that role , didn't just sit deep and break up play, they broke up play all over the middle of the park. Alonso can't do that, he has to try to hide his weaknesses by sitting deep most of the time, thats why even when we are chasing a game, unless we have a genuine defensive midfielder playing along side him ...... he stays back!

A player goes past Alonso and its a foul/booking/or goal scoring opportunity. He's not going to catch them is he?

I think we're getting into semantics again, though. To me it doesn't matter if Alonso is the quintessential defensive midfielder or not because, more often than not, he partners Gerrard or Masch...both of whom have the engine and commitment to help out on the defensive side of things. I personally don't think that Alonso always sits deep and I don't think we play our back four noticeably deeper when he starts. Why? Because he's usually got Masch or Gerrard beside him to help mop up if someone gets by him. If Alonso were partnering a full-out attacking midfielder who never tracked back and couldn't tackle for toffee (ie. someone in the Riquelme mode) I might be worried about him getting exposed. With Gerrard or Masch next to him, I've got no concerns.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:14 pm

I wasn't saying our back four play deeper with Alonso Bob, I was saying they have to play deeper when Hyypia plays.

That's the point though Bob, Alonso needs that support that a good Defensive midfielder doesn't. In a three its no problem Masch does all thats necessary. In a two ? I am not so sure mate, against Everton it worked , it often worked in the past as well, but it often DIDN'T WORK too mate. Especially against the better sides or sides that switch play quickly.

I know I would want to see it work against a decent team before I was convinced it works. Maybe against Citeh we will get our answers?

Certainly when we have played against teams that pressure the midfield its NOT WORKED this season. TBH it amazes me that someone has a couple of good games and 18months of them struggling is forgotten and they are expected to have no further problems. Great if it works but for me I will want a little more proof . I want to see the holes in his hands and feet and the blood flowing freely first mate.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:29 pm

s@int wrote:I wasn't saying our back four play deeper with Alonso Bob, I was saying they have to play deeper when Hyypia plays.

That's the point though Bob, Alonso needs that support that a good Defensive midfielder doesn't. In a three its no problem Masch does all thats necessary. In a two ? I am not so sure mate, against Everton it worked , it often worked in the past as well, but it often DIDN'T WORK too mate. Especially against the better sides or sides that switch play quickly.

I know I would want to see it work against a decent team before I was convinced it works. Maybe against Citeh we will get our answers?

Certainly when we have played against teams that pressure the midfield its NOT WORKED this season. TBH it amazes me that someone has a couple of good games and 18months of them struggling is forgotten and they are expected to have no further problems. Great if it works but for me I will want a little more proof . I want to see the holes in his hands and feet and the blood flowing freely first mate.

I think you'll need to define "NOT WORKED" for me, mate. I'm fully prepared to admit that, relative to his own capabilities, Alonso has been sub-par a fair bit over the last season and a half. That said, I don't think he let the team down when played and I wouldn't expect him to in the future either. We lose certain dimensions with him in a CM partnership with Gerrard but gain others. Personally, it never ever worries me when I see his name next to Gerrard's on the teamsheet.

I should also make it clear that I was in no way saying that I necessarily prefer Alonso to Masch. For me, Gerrard has to play virtually every game when fit. If he plays CM, like he has been of late, that means that one of Masch and Alonso has to miss out as a result. I think both are excellent when on song and still very capable when below their best. Both fill me with confidence, both work hard for the team and both are top drawer professionals. As such, I don't bat an eye when I see either of their names down on the teamsheet. Whether they share the role (rotation) or whether one holds onto the shirt and forces the other to wait for his chance (competition) is a topic for the rotation thread. Whichever way Rafa approaches it, though, both fill me with confidence despite their various shortcomings.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:09 pm

I think you'll need to define "NOT WORKED" for me, mate.

I think not worked means when you have to bring someone else on, because they arn't up to the job. CL final 2005 or maybe the FA cup final for example when Hamann had to come on. Or maybe CL final 2007 when as soon as Masch went off Kaka came into the game and set up their second. After Alonso remember gave away the free kick for the first goal (just so you don't think Masch wasn't doing his job )

I think Alonso is a good player mate don't get me wrong , I just think people get carried away at times. I prefer a player who gives m.o.t.m performences week in week out rather than someone who gives the odd great performance. ALONSO HASN'T MANAGED THAT OR ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT FOR 2 YEARS. He plays the odd good game and then we get the usual creaming of knickers from the same people (and I don't mean you OR Stu ) He will have play well for more than just a couple of games before I will be convinced anything has changed.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:27 pm

s@int wrote:
I think you'll need to define "NOT WORKED" for me, mate.

I think not worked means when you have to bring someone else on, because they arn't up to the job. CL final 2005 or maybe the FA cup final for example when Hamann had to come on. Or maybe CL final 2007 when as soon as Masch went off Kaka came into the game and set up their second. After Alonso remember gave away the free kick for the first goal (just so you don't think Masch wasn't doing his job )

I think Alonso is a good player mate don't get me wrong , I just think people get carried away at times. I prefer a player who gives m.o.t.m performences week in week out rather than someone who gives the odd great performance. ALONSO HASN'T MANAGED THAT OR ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT FOR 2 YEARS. He plays the odd good game and then we get the usual creaming of knickers from the same people (and I don't mean you OR Stu ) He will have play well for more than just a couple of games before I will be convinced anything has changed.

A bit harsh, mate...you're making it sound as though Alonso alone was responsible for problems in all those finals (although I fully acknowledge he played a role).

In any event, I stand by my confidence in both he or Masch to partner Gerrard. Stu's asked the question about the Gerrard-Masch partnership in the other thread and this is the flipside: you asking about why people are so taken with the Gerrard-Alonso partnership.

My answer to both questions is basically the same: why the fuss? To me this is arguably the area of the pitch that causes the least concern regardless of who we pick to partner Gerrard (unless, of course, we are talking Lucas or Plessis). That's why I was so bemused by our pursuit of Barry this summer...it was, at best, a step sideways.

Anyway, much as I like Alonso, I've no doubt that Masch will get his chance before too long. If, as I expect, he plays a blinder, I'm sure we'll see him partner Gerrard for a spell. And, I expect we'll do just as well as we have been doing with him on the pitch. But, if we don't, it won't be because Alonso's not there. That's the beauty of having three quality CMs battling for two positions. :nod

Now, if only we could convince Rafa to quit selecting Lucas...

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:46 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Now, if only we could convince Rafa to quit selecting Lucas...

And yet......

Seriously Lucas was the most successful partner of any of our midfielders last season. Never lost a league game or CL game where Lucas started. Played in almost all of our league games towards the end of last season when we had our most successful spell. Played in both legs of our most impressive CL games against Inter. Didn't seem to matter who he was partnered with we nearly always won!

Life is full of strange inexplicable puzzles

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:05 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Now, if only we could convince Rafa to quit selecting Lucas...

And yet......

Seriously Lucas was the most successful partner of any of our midfielders last season. Never lost a league game or CL game where Lucas started. Played in almost all of our league games towards the end of last season when we had our most successful spell. Played in both legs of our most impressive CL games against Inter. Didn't seem to matter who he was partnered with we nearly always won!

Life is full of strange inexplicable puzzles

Ah, yes, a variation on the classic plus/minus stat in hockey (basically, if you're on the ice when your team scores, you get a point but if you're on the ice when your team concedes you get a point docked; over time you develop an individual rating that's either positive or negative). Never knew quite how to gauge those kinds of things. On the one hand, I except that, as part of a team, each individual contributes to any collective success or failing to some degree (ie. no one's completely a passenger). On the other hand, it is a team game yet those kinds of stats always encourage you to base total judgment on one individual. It's so easy to look at a stat like win percentage with Lucas as starter and come to the erroneous conclusion that Lucas was the cause of our success. It's problem enough with hockey, where there's only 5 players + a goalie on the ice at any one time...consider how much more misleading it is in football, with its 10 outfield players.

(BTW, I know you were probably just including this as an interesting 'devil's advocate' point, mate, but it adds to our larger conversation about the value of stats, so I thought I'd take it seriously for a moment.

)

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:10 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Now, if only we could convince Rafa to quit selecting Lucas...

And yet......

Seriously Lucas was the most successful partner of any of our midfielders last season. Never lost a league game or CL game where Lucas started. Played in almost all of our league games towards the end of last season when we had our most successful spell. Played in both legs of our most impressive CL games against Inter. Didn't seem to matter who he was partnered with we nearly always won!

Life is full of strange inexplicable puzzles

Its because the rest of the team knows they need to pick up their game

by **NANNY RED** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:25 pm

Nice little article in the guardian today on Xabi.

Very humble lad an im made up hes still here.

Xabi Alonso back in favour at Liverpool after Gareth Barry saga
It has been something of a bitter-sweet summer for Xabi Alonso.

By Neil Johnston
Last Updated: 8:40PM BST 03 Oct 2008

; Yet the quiet man behind Liverpool's unbeaten start to the season steps out at Manchester City determined to focus on the positives rather than dwell on how close his Anfield career came to finishing in acrimonious circumstances.

Alonso had barely unpacked the winner's medal he received for his part in Spain's Euro 2008 triumph when he learned that Rafa Benitez was still willing to use him to raise money to fund the arrival of Gareth Barry.

Benitez's prolonged pursuit of the Aston Villa midfielder foundered and Alonso, who was strongly linked with Juventus and Arsenal, stayed. Few people, however, would have blamed him for feeling aggrieved at his treatment after devoting four tireless years of service to the club.

Stories followed that his relationship with compatriot Benitez had become fractured while fans showed their support for the former Real Sociedad player by continuously chanting his name during a pre-season game with Lazio.

Fast forward two months and the picture is very much brighter for both player and club. Liverpool head for Eastlands unbeaten in 11 league and cup games with Alonso their most consistent performer.

It is the future that interests Alonso now, not the past.

"I prefer not to think too much about how I was treated," said Alonso, speaking at the launch of EA Sports FIFA 09.

"There were moments of doubt during the summer, when my future was not clear and I wondered what might happen. I knew for a while after the Euros that there was some uncertainty over my future.

"That was the feedback from the club, and it was clear there was interest from elsewhere. I did not spend too much time thinking about Juventus and whether I might end up joining them. There is no point in that situation until something is actually done.

"It is the business we are in that something like that could happen, but I was really pleased nothing came of it and that I was able to continue my Liverpool career.

"It is not always easy to detach yourself from things like that, but I accept it is part of football, and the main thing is it was all resolved and I am now playing regularly. It is a fact that any player can be really happy where he is, but if the club don't want him, he has to accept that. There is not much you can do."

With his future uncertain, Alonso's spirits dropped. Happily settled on Merseyside with wife-to-be, Nagore, and their baby, Jon, the last thing he wanted was to uproot his young family.

Yet the support Alonso received from Liverpool fans during a testing period in his life lifted him.

"There are not many better clubs to play football for than Liverpool," Alonso added.

"The fans are unbelievable. I felt their support as soon as I returned from my holidays. I got back and the situation was not clear. But whenever I went out to lunch or for a coffee, most of them were trying to encourage me. It was important to feel that support and I really appreciated it.

"They'd come up and say, 'We'd love you to stay' or 'Whatever happens we wish you all the best'. I got a few letters as well. They were congratulating me on the Euros and there were a few comments about my own situation. It meant a lot."

With his future a lot more settled, Alonso is playing some of his best football since becoming one of Benitez's first signings in 2004.

Having conquered Europe with Spain three years after winning the Champions League with Liverpool, he is now desperate to get his hands on a Premier League winner's medal.

Liverpool have started well, but Alonso has been at Anfield long enough to experience positive starts fade into nothing. Hence his reluctant to talk up the club's titles chances ahead of a difficult test at City.

"It is always tough at Manchester City, but it will be harder after what has happened recently," Alonso said. "It is a new era for them, expectations are high and they have brought in some quality players. If we can win, it will be an important three points, because City could be challenging for a top-four place this season.

"We have to be cautious about making any predictions at this stage of the season. The first objective is to go into the Christmas programme still in contention. If you are eight or nine points adrift at that stage, you are out of it, and we don't want any repeat of that."

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