Liverpool FC Forum

[woof woof !]

Alonso's played in six of our last seven competitive games and imo has looked better with each game , perhaps the fact he was nearly sold in the summer was a blow to him but that coupled with his recent almost unbroken run of games have actually combined to help him up his game. I'm certainly happy with his recent performances and feeling relieved that we still have him.

[metalhead]

Alonso's played in six of our last seven competitive games and imo has looked better with each game , perhaps the fact he was nearly sold in the summer was a blow to him but that coupled with his recent almost unbroken run of games have actually combined to help him up his game. I'm certainly happy with his recent performances and feeling relieved that we still have him.

[bigmick]

<snip S@int's long reply post>

Sorry S@int, I posted that a bit angry with bigmick, and I know you always tried to be fair with Alonso and any other player really. And it was a mistake: I don't believe in blocks and factions, your position, Bamaga's position, and Bigmick's position had their own differences and details, and I made a mix.

I made the mistake because I didn't like Bigmick's words about the credibility of some posters without giving names, I don't care if he aimed it to me, Kazzaa, Lando or all of us, just as it's wrong to tell Bigmick that Rafa has a coach title and he hasn't, it's wrong to settle something as a "glaringly obvious" fact and ridiculing a opinion that disagrees that. It's lazy thinking and I NEVER saw Bigmick doing that. It's as lazy as saying that  3 spanish national coaches selected Alonso is an obvious sign that he played well to a certain level. If we start saying things like that, what's the point of coming here and discussing?


I was angry especially when he agreed with me less than 2 weeks ago that Alonso hadn't improved that much. When did the glaringly obvious improvement come then? after the dissapointing Stoke game?

I made the mistake of getting angry and simplifying the matter a lot.

Sorry.

And you know what? you're right. It's a bit too early to talk about leaving aside old problems... and too early to say he's a much better player aswell.

Fair enough Sabes, not my usual rambling style of forming an argument and the "lazy" accusation is entirely fair.

Sorry mate   

[Sabre]

My response wasn't better. It's forgotten Bigmick.

[bigmick]

I think to clarify on the apparent change of position over the last two weeks, I'm not sure it is so to be perfectly honest. I've certainly never called Alonso a water carrier, nor have I said his game lacks creativity. When he was slagged in some quarters although I totally agree his form dipped after his first eighteen months, I don't think I quite joined the chorus of disapproval.

For that reason, although his form of a couple of weeks ago was improving, I don't think it had improved "that much" from then. He was excellent though against Everton, right back to where he consistently used to be and to me anyway, obviously in better form than he was a year or so ago. Put it this way, if he plays like that then we have a genuine contest for the central midfielder slots, and i hope he wins one of them. Needless to say i hope masherano wins the other and we move Gerrard to the right (Despite his imperious performance against Everton) but thats for further down the track.

In a nutshell though I understand you getting angry with my post and sorry again. I would ask you to consider though that it is also quite annoying when a player in your opinion loses his form, you point it out but get derided (not by you again Sabes), then it becomes (almost) universally accepted that his performances have dropped, then he starts to play really well and you come out straight away to get behind him and say so, then you are told that essentially it's an optical illusion and he's actually been playing exactly at the same standard all along. He hasn't been playing at the same level all along though, he is playing well at the moment with more to come and I for one am delighted for him.


Finally, having had it shoved at me (not by you admittedly) repeatedly over the last four years, I can't despite myself resist the temptation to point out that Rafa obviously agrees as he was trying to sell him. Now as man with oodles of coaching badges and experience was calling it that Xabi was surplus to requirements, far be it for me, a mere cocktail barman/dildo seller to argue with him 

[Zidane]

Xabi is as good as the team makes him imo.  If we play bad his weaknesses are exposed if we play well he looks like he controlled the game, which he probably did do that game but yeah.  He'll never spark the team alone or create some magical moment by himself.  Dunno if this makes sense or I look like a fool saying it but just my opinion on him.

[Sabre]

Yeh correct, you never considered him a water carrier, in fact, for me it was a lot different to say Alonso was below HIS average, rather than saying Alonso was below average. Some people did underrate Alonso a lot, some others simply were stating that Alonso was below his average, which is still better than many players in the league. It's a bit different one and the other.

In fact, the criticism you throwed to Alonso always had behind the belief that he could be a lot better if he did a couple of things differently, and you never said Barry was the better player, just said they were comparable. No, you were never a serial Alonso underrater...

Similarly, I could describe the profile of many other posters, and it's all different, so that's why I'm a bit tired of factions and antis and pros, we end up simplifying things, and end up considering that a certain faction thinks like a block ----> Wrong. Every poster has his subtle differences, and since we write quite a lot, those details are many.

I can't despite myself resist the temptation to point out that Rafa obviously agrees as he was trying to sell him.

And you do well, because it is a fact. But the reason of this is still unclear to me. Was it because Xabi's son incident?, was it because he wanted to press the board so that he got the money? was it because Alonso had problems in the dressroom with Gerrard? or perhaps Rafa also thought that Xabi Alonso had to improve a couple of things and quite simply he lost the patience?

I don't know the true reason. But it is a fact that Rafa wanted to sell him, and it's probably safe to assume that now he's happy he didn't sell -- but then with Rafa you never know, he might sell him in winter and bring Barry and another player to have more options

P.S. Zidane, it made sense to me, I tried to explain a bit of that with 10 times more lines and a worse english! I'd change the he'd never spark the team alone, for a "he'd rarely", because he has those long range efforts from his own side, thanks to his strength.

[Fo Dne]

Yeh correct, you never considered him a water carrier, in fact, for me it was a lot different to say Alonso was below HIS average, rather than saying Alonso was below average. Some people did underrate Alonso a lot, some others simply were stating that Alonso was below his average, which is still better than many players in the league. It's a bit different one and the other.

In fact, the criticism you throwed to Alonso always had behind the belief that he could be a lot better if he did a couple of things differently, and you never said Barry was the better player, just said they were comparable. No, you were never a serial Alonso underrater...

Similarly, I could describe the profile of many other posters, and it's all different, so that's why I'm a bit tired of factions and antis and pros, we end up simplifying things, and end up considering that a certain faction thinks like a block ----> Wrong. Every poster has his subtle differences, and since we write quite a lot, those details are many.

I can't despite myself resist the temptation to point out that Rafa obviously agrees as he was trying to sell him.

And you do well, because it is a fact. But the reason of this is still unclear to me. Was it because Xabi's son incident?, was it because he wanted to press the board so that he got the money? was it because Alonso had problems in the dressroom with Gerrard? or perhaps Rafa also thought that Xabi Alonso had to improve a couple of things and quite simply he lost the patience?

I don't know the true reason. But it is a fact that Rafa wanted to sell him, and it's probably safe to assume that now he's happy he didn't sell -- but then with Rafa you never know, he might sell him in winter and bring Barry and another player to have more options

P.S. Zidane, it made sense to me, I tried to explain a bit of that with 10 times more lines and a worse english! I'd change the he'd never spark the team alone, for a "he'd rarely", because he has those long range efforts from his own side, thanks to his strength.

I'd go as far as to say Barry is the slightly better player. But its very slight. And I think Alonso helps bring the best out of Steven Gerrard.

I also think he helps Gerrard play a disciplined game like the one he played in the Derby and for me now, those two have earned the right to play there every week. Bring Pennant back in on the right and see where that takes us...

Could be interesting.

[account deleted by request]

I also think he helps Gerrard play a disciplined game like the one he played in the Derby and for me now, those two have earned the right to play there every week.

I can't agree with this Stu, Masch has hardly played this season(only 3 games) due to the Olympics and injury, but when he has played he has been outstanding......... M.O.T.M against the mancs for example.

Last season he was head and shoulders above Alonso, and yet after ONE good game you are saying Alonso and Gerrard have EARNED the right to play there every week ?

No chance mate

[Zidane]

I agree with saint, hopefully Masch isn't left out because of Xabi being on form a couple games.  Masch is more reliable to do his part imo and he's improving his attacking game from what I have seen even though it was very little.

[Fo Dne]

I also think he helps Gerrard play a disciplined game like the one he played in the Derby and for me now, those two have earned the right to play there every week.

I can't agree with this Stu, Masch has hardly played this season(only 3 games) due to the Olympics and injury, but when he has played he has been outstanding......... M.O.T.M against the mancs for example.

Last season he was head and shoulders above Alonso, and yet after ONE good game you are saying Alonso and Gerrard have EARNED the right to play there every week ?

No chance mate

I beg to differ with you as Alonso was by far our best player against United.

Mascherano and Gerrard as a pairing is a definate no. It simply does not work and the only time I'd consider that is against a team thats going to put us under massive pressure. With Alonso and Gerrard in the centre, I don't think any team will be able to do that as we'll have the ball, not them.

We lacked real creativety against Everton, it was only ball retention that allowed the chances we created and for us to then take out one of those two for a less creative player is a mistake.

Alonso on form is still a better player than Mascherano. Javier is a good player, but he's not as good as people say he is. Simple as that. He's a bit of a golden boy at the minute and can do no wrong due to the fact he's good in the tackle and quick.

While his form is consistent and he did play better than Xabi last season he doesn't bring the balance to the side Xabi does, he doesn't bring others into play the way Xabi does and he is also sloppy in possession. He doesn't hurt teams by playing the right pass in the same way Alonso does. He also doesn't get anything out of Gerrard and completely lacks the tactical understanding of the game that Alonso has.

The fact is, Gerrard and Alonso compliment each other superbly and its no coincidence the one game they played in the middle together this season, we bossed for every minute of the ninety against our "rivals".

[account deleted by request]

Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the middle 4 times this season mate.....against Middlesbro' when we struggled and were the worse team in truth, Standard Liege at home when we were overrun for long periods, and against Stoke were we failed to score while being given virtual freedom in midfield.
One good match against Everton in which Everton totaly failed to prevent Alonso playing by leaving Yakubo isolated up front on his own, and with Faliani(sp) a virtual spectator for most of the game in their midfield. When Alonso was parnered by Plessis in the away leg against Liege we were played off the field.

Masch has played 3 games this season, the 0-0 against Villa partnered by Alonso, the 2-1 win against the mancs where he was at least as good as his partner Alonso (imo and most peoples Masch was m.o.t.m.) and Marseille away 2-1 win when he was partnered with Lucas.

I prefer Masch myself but can understand why a few others prefer an on form Alonso. My argument was not that you think Alonso is better than Masch but that you seemed to think Alonso had earned the right to partner Gerrard week in week out.

The reason Masch is a bit of a golden boy is because he played so well week in week out last season, and I don't think anyone can argue that over the season Masch was far the better player than Alonso. As for balance and best partnerships ....... I think that is something we will have to wait and see.

[Fo Dne]

Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the middle 4 times this season mate.....against Middlesbro' when we struggled and were the worse team in truth, Standard Liege at home when we were overrun for long periods, and against Stoke were we failed to score while being given virtual freedom in midfield.
One good match against Everton in which Everton totaly failed to prevent Alonso playing by leaving Yakubo isolated up front on his own, and with Faliani(sp) a virtual spectator for most of the game in their midfield. When Alonso was parnered by Plessis in the away leg against Liege we were played off the field.

Masch has played 3 games this season, the 0-0 against Villa partnered by Alonso, the 2-1 win against the mancs where he was at least as good as his partner Alonso (imo and most peoples Masch was m.o.t.m.) and Marseille away 2-1 win when he was partnered with Lucas.

I prefer Masch myself but can understand why a few others prefer an on form Alonso. My argument was not that you think Alonso is better than Masch but that you seemed to think Alonso had earned the right to partner Gerrard week in week out.

The reason Masch is a bit of a golden boy is because he played so well week in week out last season, and I don't think anyone can argue that over the season Masch was far the better player than Alonso. As for balance and best partnerships ....... I think that is something we will have to wait and see.

Against Leige every player was . So I'm not having that the midfield was over run what so ever. The whole team was, and as a central midfielder, if you have 10 players around you not at the races, it doesn't matter what you do.

Against Stoke we had a rediculous amount of the ball and completely failed to take chances. Again, absoloutely nothing to do with Alonso and Gerrard who, by your own addmission, bossed the midfield again in that game. I fail to see what Mascherano would have given us in that game, less creativety? Less ability to keep the ball, I can see maybe that if we had less of the ball we may have hit them on the break once...

The fact is a central midfield partnership should consist of different types of players. Mascherano is to similar to Gerrard with similar Strengths, and neither of which are anywhere near good enough in terms of game intelligence to be the main creative player and tempo dictator. Alonso's completely different to both. Out of Mascherano and Gerrard, there will only ever be one winner for me.

You then say Alonso failed to get a grip of a game when partnered by Plessis? No wonder lad, Plessis would struggle on a sunday league pitch. Playing in Birkenhead division four.

Mascherano is a consistent player. A very good player aswell. But he's rediculously overated by our own fans. Simple as that.

[LegBarnes]

Gerrard and Alonso have played together in the middle 4 times this season mate.....against Middlesbro' when we struggled and were the worse team in truth, Standard Liege at home when we were overrun for long periods, and against Stoke were we failed to score while being given virtual freedom in midfield.
One good match against Everton in which Everton totaly failed to prevent Alonso playing by leaving Yakubo isolated up front on his own, and with Faliani(sp) a virtual spectator for most of the game in their midfield. When Alonso was parnered by Plessis in the away leg against Liege we were played off the field.

Masch has played 3 games this season, the 0-0 against Villa partnered by Alonso, the 2-1 win against the mancs where he was at least as good as his partner Alonso (imo and most peoples Masch was m.o.t.m.) and Marseille away 2-1 win when he was partnered with Lucas.

I prefer Masch myself but can understand why a few others prefer an on form Alonso. My argument was not that you think Alonso is better than Masch but that you seemed to think Alonso had earned the right to partner Gerrard week in week out.

The reason Masch is a bit of a golden boy is because he played so well week in week out last season, and I don't think anyone can argue that over the season Masch was far the better player than Alonso. As for balance and best partnerships ....... I think that is something we will have to wait and see.

Against Leige every player was . So I'm not having that the midfield was over run what so ever. The whole team was, and as a central midfielder, if you have 10 players around you not at the races, it doesn't matter what you do.

Against Stoke we had a rediculous amount of the ball and completely failed to take chances. Again, absoloutely nothing to do with Alonso and Gerrard who, by your own addmission, bossed the midfield again in that game. I fail to see what Mascherano would have given us in that game, less creativety? Less ability to keep the ball, I can see maybe that if we had less of the ball we may have hit them on the break once...

The fact is a central midfield partnership should consist of different types of players. Mascherano is to similar to Gerrard with similar Strengths, and neither of which are anywhere near good enough in terms of game intelligence to be the main creative player and tempo dictator. Alonso's completely different to both. Out of Mascherano and Gerrard, there will only ever be one winner for me.

You then say Alonso failed to get a grip of a game when partnered by Plessis? No wonder lad, Plessis would struggle on a sunday league pitch. Playing in Birkenhead division four.

Mascherano is a consistent player. A very good player aswell. But he's rediculously overated by our own fans. Simple as that.

Ok so you say vs stoke gerrard and alonso played well and we didn't win and that wasn't gerrards and alonsos fault.

But vs everton gerrard and alonso played well and it was their fault we won , come on you can't have it both ways. 

[RedBlood]

I agree on the "assist" front. An assist is the last touch before the goal in a statistical sense. Its not always the reason for the goal being scored.

For example, if Gerrard picks the ball up off the keeper, beats four men then squares one for Keane inside the 18 yard box after carrying the ball 60 yards, Keane could chose to shoot but plays it to Torres instead, Gerrard is obviously the main reason for the goal and had the major influence, but stats and fantasy points won't show that. This is something which enfuriates me when people make points about creativety etc.

If Alonso tried a through ball every time he got it instead of playing the right pass he's obviously going to end up with more assists as he'll be trying to play the strikers in with every pass, law of averages say he'll get more assists... it would however be to the disadvantage of the team as 95% ofthe time he'd be conceeding possession.

The exact point I've made last week about the difference between being credited with an "assist" and "creating a chance" mate, agree completely.

as good as gerrard is ive neva seen him run 60 yards & beat 4 players