Liverpool FC Forum

by **RedBlood** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:38 pm

Mascherano with Alonso in the mid & Gerrard behind Torres Riera & Babel.....................thats what id play

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:58 pm

Hopefully we can discuss this Stu rather than argue because it does interest me, and while I think Alonso is a very good player and a great passer of the ball, I see Masch as a world class player, in fact I can't think of a better defensive midfield player out there.

For me Alonso's biggest problem is getting the time and space to get his head up so he can make his great passes. Teams have shown many times in the past that if their striker forgets about chasing from CB to CB when we have the ball .......instead he just sits on Alonso, thats 70% of Alonso's game gone up in smoke. Our CB's can happily be left with the ball because none of them (arguably Agger) have the ability to really hurt a team with a pass anyway, and the usual outcome of our defenders passing it along the back line is a hopeful punt upfield.

He rarely goes forward for us as his lack of pace makes it impossible for him to recover when and if we lose possession. With Spain in the summer he didn't have that problem because they kept possession much better than we do, and he could go forward with confidence and without the same worry of sprinting back. He is probably the one player at Anfield who isn't a natural athelete anyway.

As you can see I am not blaming Alonso ..... what I am saying is because our CB's have poor distribution and we have forward players that lose the ball too often (Babel/Kuyt/Keane/Benayoun etc etc ) his lack of pace becomes a real handicap. In one of Rafa's famous speeches he said " I like teams that play the ball with speed and look to score with as few passes as possible. So while maybe if he played for another team based more on possession passing he could work openings by interchange of passes, with Liverpool if he passes the ball in all likelyhood thats the last he will see of it till he's making a tackle.

Mascherano on the other hand has pace,he is quite happy just delivering the ball to our more creative players and then winning it back time after time. His passing while not on a par with Alonso's is usually neat and he does make some very good passes at times. He has the confidence to get forward because he knows he has the pace and engine to get back. His style of play is probably more suited to the way Rafa wantS the team to play.

As a defensive player he is much better than Alonso, makes many more tackles than Alonso, covers the ground better and is just as good positionally especially as he doesn't need to defend as deep as Alonso does, because he doesn't need the security of a CB behind him in the same way Alonso does.

Who plays better and combines better with Gerrard may be the key to who gets the nod most this season, unless Rafa decides to play Gerrard wide anyway!

by **Sabre** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:55 pm

I hate quoting long posts, S@int, I quote part of it and I develop

As you can see I am not blaming Alonso ..... what I am saying is because our CB's have poor distribution and we have forward players that lose the ball too often (Babel/Kuyt/Keane/Benayoun etc etc ) his lack of pace becomes a real handicap. In one of Rafa's famous speeches he said " I like teams that play the ball with speed and look to score with as few passes as possible. So while maybe if he played for another team based more on possession passing he could work openings by interchange of passes, with Liverpool if he passes the ball in all likelyhood thats the last he will see of it till he's making a tackle.

What Rafa wants is the ball running, not the player. For that you need a good fast football brain. A good counterattack is the counterattack in which you run little with the ball, and you pass it quickly. I don't see Alonso has problems to move the ball fast, his orientation changes allows Liverpool to play faster than most, his pass choosing decissions are top class. Alonso is not incompatible with what Rafa asks, au contraire.

Nor were Schuster, Koeman, and other good players that were not fast, but their football brain was.

While I agree Mascherano covers more terrain, I don't think he's as good positionally and deciding when to tackle and when to hold. It's true though, than when the tackle occurs, Mascherano executes it better.

Mascherano runs better with the ball, and if we're caught in a counter, he'll react more quickly --ie, better than Alonso for that situation. But then Alonso is better in the air, has more height, and in football there are situations like balls coming from the oppo keeper that also count.

P.S. As for Alonso having a place before Mascherano, I disagree. I consider them of the same league and I'd give them the same weight in the team. I'd play them depending of the kind of game. I think it's indispensable to have deep quality squads. Look Barcelona, if they lose Henry, they have Etoo. Look Real Madrid, if they don't have RAul, they have Van Nystelroi. We need to be able to sit down a top class player like ours, and being able to bring someone as good. We can't do that in the striker position, but at least we can do it in the midfield.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:12 pm

Good post Sabre...... wouldn't it be nice if we could have a sensible discussion for once rather than everyone picking sides before the fighting starts

BTW Just to be clear, I wasn't aiming that at you Sabre just "we" as in newkit

by **Sabre** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:23 pm

I don't know why there should be two sides for starters. Why don't we celebrate we have these two great players and talk about their good and bad sides naturally rather than comparing? I think that if we all change the chip of the two sides, it can work.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:27 pm

Sabre wrote:P.S. As for Alonso having a place before Mascherano, I disagree. I consider them of the same league and I'd give them the same weight in the team. I'd play them depending of the kind of game.

See for me I guess this is where the fundamnetal difference is between a rotater by nature, and an anti. You'd probably agree Sabes that this demonstrates it far more clearly than our debate of the other day.

The idea of having two holding midfielders, and saying "well we are playing Man City this week. Now lets see, Steven Ireland likes to carry the ball a bit, and Mash is the better tackler, so Xabi you can take a rest". Then the following week you're playing Boltoin and it's "now, Kevin Nolan is good in the air, so Mash you sit this one out". This is the epitomy of styling, and as the sig says will never ever be successful in the English premier League IMHO.

That's not to say there's not validity in changing the team for a one off match, bringing Hyppia in for a route one team for example. The idea though that you can go through a season, saying eeny meanie miney mo just won't work. What you do is, when one or the other plays well, you leave em in. That way, they fight for the right to play, as opposed to party in that annoying Euro disco hit.

For me, Alonso did enough against Everton to start against Citeh. Mash will know that when he gets in he's got to pull his finger out. It won't worry him overly I shouldn't think.

by **pass_da_dutchie** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:55 pm

anybody trying to compare Masch and Xabi are not only wasting everybody's time but short of a few brain cells as well. Mascherano by nature is a player who breaks the play up and plays the simple pass. Alonso by nature is a ball playing central midfielder.

The fact is if we're playing 4-4-2, then it's one or the other because Gerrard plays. Simple as that. Who partners Gerrard is the question that is on Benitez' mind. Now if he's looking to offload Xabi in the summer again, it's simple you play Mascherano and tell Xabi you're off anyway lad. If he's looking to keep both for the long haul then it's a more difficult question, which is why we've tried three central midfielders for a while (two holding, one supporting the forward). Trying to keep two extremely talented central midfielders happy is going to be difficult but other clubs manage it, so we're going to have to.

This season Xabi has been improving with each game. From the first leg in Belgium where he was woeful to the derby on Saturday where he didn't put a foot wrong. Masch on the other hand has been consistant as usual. But Alonso was right up there for man of the match on Saturday, so he plays against City, Masch has to wait for his chance. If he's not prepared to and he starts throwing a wend then he can :censored:

off, fortunately he doesn't strike me as that kind of player. I think he'll accept that Xabi has the shirt at the moment and he has to work even harder in training and hope for a bit of luck to get back in the side. That's the way football works. In days gone by we had an array of talent in the middle of the park, Terry Mc, Ray Kennedy, Jimmy Case and Ian Callaghan, now Cally and Case often fought out the right wing position as well and by the time Ray was at Anfield, Cally was coming towards the end of his long lasting service to the club but we managed to find places on a regular basis for all four of them. The first teamers will get more than enough chances to prove their worth throughout the season, so you go on current form and fitness.

What you don't do is play Masch, Lucas and Xabi together because it obviously doesn't work as the Villa game proved.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:41 am

Another thing you shouldnt do. Question one players form when there are many not performing.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:22 am

Personally I think Alonso has quite a bit to prove before he can be considered back in the same class as Mascherano. One good game doesn't prove anything for me and unless he can show that he can maintain that level , even when he is pressured I will continue to have huge doubts. In European games I have no doubts, he gets time and space (Liege apart) and can be invaluable, in the league where teams apply pressure I am still unconvinced.

Certainly games in which poor teams play the long ball against us have proven to be a big problem for him (imo) as he is reluctant to get forward for fear of being caught out on the counter.

As I say for me there are more questions than answers at the moment, I just hope that Alonso answers them with some great performances over the coming weeks.

by **Owzat** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:47 am

s@int wrote:Personally I think Alonso has quite a bit to prove before he can be considered back in the same class as Mascherano. One good game doesn't prove anything for me and unless he can show that he can maintain that level , even when he is pressured I will continue to have huge doubts. In European games I have no doubts, he gets time and space (Liege apart) and can be invaluable, in the league where teams apply pressure I am still unconvinced.

Certainly games in which poor teams play the long ball against us have proven to be a big problem for him (imo) as he is reluctant to get forward for fear of being caught out on the counter.

As I say for me there are more questions than answers at the moment, I just hope that Alonso answers them with some great performances over the coming weeks.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare Mascherano and Alonso directly. They can be used in the same role, but their strengths are different. Mascherano is your basic ball winner, simple passer and workhorse. Alonso's game is more about his passing, in my view way too often hit long and not always a wise pass or an accurate one. Alonso can tackle, but Mascherano is the man you'd want in front of the back four breaking down attacks. But then Mascherano isn't so great on the ball, a bit like Sissoko wasn't. It's one thing to win the ball, but there's no point if you give it away a second later and take yourself out of the game! Mascherano has improved, keeps it simple more often than not or lays possession off to someone else.

And while Alonso doesn't score as often as he could and should, his shooting is way better than Mascherano. You'd also not be wanting Mascherano taking set-pieces, although he couldn't do any worse than our current takers. So Alonso is more balanced a midfielder than Mascherano, I'd say Mascherano is better than Alonso at what each does as their primary function. I am disappointed Alonso hasn't improved, certainly I'd like to see more come from his passes, corners and him get closer to shoot rather than speculate from way out to repeat past glorious goals from distance. We need more goals from midfield, Gerrard is the only midfielder who carries his weight in that department.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:48 am

Pass_da_dutchie: That was a decent post. It's indeed as you say how football has worked all the life. Despite I like rotations, I also find necessary to compete eh? meaning if Alonso isn't playing well he'll get less chances. But Alonso has done well? Yes. Mascherano? Definitely. Both are sharp, let's keep both of them shárp. And if we really think that Mascherano is needed the next game due to his fortes, let's not hinder ourselves in the name of cohesion and let's sit down Alonso if necessary. Alonso won't lose form in one game, especially if the next game you have it in 4 days!

by **NiftyNeil** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:11 am

Sabre, your avatar's ace. If you look at it one way, it looks the way it supposed to. I always see Bert though, from Bert and Ernie fame (Sesame Street), wearing a white shirt and blue tie lying back on a blue pillow - except he's got no eyes and his nose is over to one side.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:58 am

He's pocoyo, a local muppet that I've known thanks to my niece

Since he's good and happy, I thought I couldn't get a more happy clappy icon to represent me.

It's true he has a bit of Bert, though! Bert would be a good happy clappy. While Ernie would be the anti.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:02 pm

Sabre wrote:He's pocoyo, a local muppet that I've known thanks to my niece Since he's good and happy, I thought I couldn't get a more happy clappy icon to represent me. It's true he has a bit of Bert, though! Bert would be a good happy clappy. While Ernie would be the anti.

I think you've got Bert and Ernie confused there, mate.

Bert's defo the doom and gloomer and Ernie's the 'appy clapper. Their love is pure, though! :laugh:

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:27 am

Crosspost for Joe:

That's not the Sabre you know because you usually don't make a point to undermine Rafa without actually being it true. I've seen more than once letting go one of those sentences and then be assumed as a universal truth "Alonso plays as an attacking midfielder".

Deep lying playmaker is a term that has no translation to Spanish footie words. What is it, a holding midfielder that has skill and ability to pass and set the play and even get forward for a range shot? we just call them good holding midfielders.

As part of last seasons 4-5-1, if you are going to call it that, and therefore have 5 midfielders I would have said that Xabi was the deep-lying playmaker

With one striker, Alonso plays as the second holding midfielder ("doble pivote"), one or the two holding midfielder could be deep lying playmakers if they're good enough.

Under one striker it becomes evident in Spain that both Alonso and Senna have a full line of midfielders on front of them.

Is Xavi from Barcelona a deep lying playmaker? he's a playmaker, and he roams everywhere to get the ball. When you see Abidal or whoever is the DM in BArcelona, Xavi will go deep to start the play and help Abidal, yet he'll still be a CM. My point is that having an ability that's not usual in your position, doesn't make you play in another position. You could say of Agger a very deep lying holding midfielder because he can pass the ball as a decent holding mid? no, he'll still be a CB. Alonso either is a pure DM when Alone, and a double holding mid (pivote) with Senna. Never an attacking midfielder (he wouldn't be good enough to play with Spain, the likes of Guti would take a place first!, let alone Fabregas!)

¿cuáles son las diferencias entre la posición que Xabi juega cuando él es el compañero del senna y el compañero de Mascherano?

What's the difference between Xabi when he plays alongside Mascherano and Senna in Spain?

Two:

a) Mascherano seems to have more permission to run with the ball and go forward, there are more "switches" between him and Alonso, they alternate the task.

a.1) With Senna though, the roles are more clear and there are less switches, you'll only see Alonso watching the back of Senna when Senna seeks a range shot. But both Alonso and Senna have a line of midfielders on front of them, regardless Alonso incorporating to that second line when Spain has long posessions.

Same positions, slightly different roles.

Of course, when you are Spain, you play against Azerbajan, you play Senna and Alonso, and you have players like Silva Xabi or Iniesta on front of them, you end up having most of posession. Plus, Spain elaborates more than Liverpool, Spain passes more for the sake of passing, what Spain doesn't want is to not have the ball, because we're little and small.

Alonso couldn't be an attacking midfielder as we know the term here, yes a CM or a Holding midfielder. The perfect example of attacking midfielder is Fabregas.

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