Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:14 am

LegBarnes wrote:But to get all sarcastic about my time away is just depraved and pointless unless you trying to wind me up and if that is case I won't bother to respond to any of you posts any more.

Two things here. Firstly I'm not sure "depraved" is the word you're looking for (or at least I hope it isn't

). Secondly, if you've got your own numpty bin, then how...

No, you're quite right. Sorry for being sarky I definately don't want to end up in your numpty bin :;):

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:16 am

NANNY RED wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:
metalhead wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:Not back to his best yet xabi but he's getting there , another good problem to have him and masch for the 1 of the 2 central midfield places if gerrard plays in the middle .

against Everton he was fantastic, Alonso of the old

If that was fantastic that you have not seen the old xabi alonso? He was good , never fantastic but was one of his better performances even though he was rather anoymous , the unsung hero in a way

You havin a laugh lad?

Seriously?

Absoloutely clueless.

Xabi done nothin wrong yesterday. Held the middle well broke down any of there moves just played the nice easy ball. Done his job perfectly imo

My point was he didn't do anything wrong because he got EVERYTHING right, he was immense.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:17 am

I think thats true to an extent Sabre. You can always pick the bad as well as the good, and a bad result tends to make people focus on what went wrong rather than what players did well. I think in all honesty that win or lose yesterday most people would have appreciated midfield was one area where we totally dominated, and Alonso played a big part in that.

I tend to look at the more offensive side of Alonso's game, where I think you look more to his defensive duties.

I think when you have a player that can pass a ball like he can, we need him playing it forward not sideways, we can get Robbie Savage if we just want someone to play it 5 yards sideways. Which is what frustrated me when Alonso was having his bad games (he's had a couple this season too btw).

I don't believe Alonso will ever be as good as Masch as a defensive player, but Masch will never be able to pass a ball like Alonso can. Who's better ? It doesn't really matter to me as long as they are both performing to their best for Liverpool.

But believe me he IS playing better at the moment, rather than just results going our way.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:19 am

bigmick wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:But to get all sarcastic about my time away is just depraved and pointless unless you trying to wind me up and if that is case I won't bother to respond to any of you posts any more.

Two things here. Firstly I'm not sure "depraved" is the word you're looking for (or at least I hope it isn't ). Secondly, if you've got your own numpty bin, then how...

No, you're quite right. Sorry for being sarky I definately don't want to end up in your numpty bin

"Depraved
"Utterly reprehensible in nature or behavior"

Which I felt you was alittle there (ok maybe a little harsh). :glare:

As for Numpty bin I don't have one of those I like idea tho is there some where I could buy one ?

I just am just trying not to get into any heated debates as more I have learnt my lession so to speak and keeping my head down. :grinning:

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:23 am

Was wondering Mick what you think about Wednesday I personally feel alonso has to start after that performance and also would like to see babel given a chance up front (at some point in game) , due to fact its vs a dutch team and maybe he can show us what he has learnt so far this season.

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:25 am

s@int wrote:I think thats true to an extent Sabre. You can always pick the bad as well as the good, and a bad result tends to make people focus on what went wrong rather than what players did well. I think in all honesty that win or lose yesterday most people would have appreciated midfield was one area where we totally dominated, and Alonso played a big part in that.

I tend to look at the more offensive side of Alonso's game, where I think you look more to his defensive duties.

I think when you have a player that can pass a ball like he can, we need him playing it forward not sideways, we can get Robbie Savage if we just want someone to play it 5 yards sideways. Which is what frustrated me when Alonso was having his bad games (he's had a couple this season too btw).

I don't believe Alonso will ever be as good as Masch as a defensive player, but Masch will never be able to pass a ball like Alonso can. Who's better ? It doesn't really matter to me as long as they are both performing to their best for Liverpool.

But believe me he IS playing better at the moment, rather than just results going our way.

Its

all to do with the result. If Alonso and Gerrard had been on the losing side yesterday they'd still have played blinders. From start to finish they done everything right and without a doubt they were the reason (just as much if not more so than Nando) that we won that game.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:27 am

Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:I think thats true to an extent Sabre. You can always pick the bad as well as the good, and a bad result tends to make people focus on what went wrong rather than what players did well. I think in all honesty that win or lose yesterday most people would have appreciated midfield was one area where we totally dominated, and Alonso played a big part in that.

I tend to look at the more offensive side of Alonso's game, where I think you look more to his defensive duties.

I think when you have a player that can pass a ball like he can, we need him playing it forward not sideways, we can get Robbie Savage if we just want someone to play it 5 yards sideways. Which is what frustrated me when Alonso was having his bad games (he's had a couple this season too btw).

I don't believe Alonso will ever be as good as Masch as a defensive player, but Masch will never be able to pass a ball like Alonso can. Who's better ? It doesn't really matter to me as long as they are both performing to their best for Liverpool.

But believe me he IS playing better at the moment, rather than just results going our way.

Its all to do with the result. If Alonso and Gerrard had been on the losing side yesterday they'd still have played blinders. From start to finish they done everything right and without a doubt they were the reason (just as much if not more so than Nando) that we won that game.

Thats true but not more then nando and Keane as if they didn't do what they did we would have not scored.

I feel it was just a great Team effort simple as that only player I felt didn't do really well was Dosser but tbh 1 player can not perform and some times it won't cost you.

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:36 am

LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:I think thats true to an extent Sabre. You can always pick the bad as well as the good, and a bad result tends to make people focus on what went wrong rather than what players did well. I think in all honesty that win or lose yesterday most people would have appreciated midfield was one area where we totally dominated, and Alonso played a big part in that.

I tend to look at the more offensive side of Alonso's game, where I think you look more to his defensive duties.

I think when you have a player that can pass a ball like he can, we need him playing it forward not sideways, we can get Robbie Savage if we just want someone to play it 5 yards sideways. Which is what frustrated me when Alonso was having his bad games (he's had a couple this season too btw).

I don't believe Alonso will ever be as good as Masch as a defensive player, but Masch will never be able to pass a ball like Alonso can. Who's better ? It doesn't really matter to me as long as they are both performing to their best for Liverpool.

But believe me he IS playing better at the moment, rather than just results going our way.

Its all to do with the result. If Alonso and Gerrard had been on the losing side yesterday they'd still have played blinders. From start to finish they done everything right and without a doubt they were the reason (just as much if not more so than Nando) that we won that game.

Thats true but not more then nando and Keane as if they didn't do what they did we would have not scored.

I feel it was just a great Team effort simple as that only player I felt didn't do really well was Dosser but tbh 1 player can not perform and some times it won't cost you.

You can't say that lad... one pass at the start of the game alters the pattern for ninety minutes. If a player plays a bad ball straight away a team can sometimes fail to settle. Anything can happen, its a rediculous way of looking at things... how dya know if Keane and Torres hadn't played Xabi and Stevie wouldn't have been shooting from a distance more? Ya don't. Simple as.

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:50 am

Fo Dne wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:I think thats true to an extent Sabre. You can always pick the bad as well as the good, and a bad result tends to make people focus on what went wrong rather than what players did well. I think in all honesty that win or lose yesterday most people would have appreciated midfield was one area where we totally dominated, and Alonso played a big part in that.

I tend to look at the more offensive side of Alonso's game, where I think you look more to his defensive duties.

I think when you have a player that can pass a ball like he can, we need him playing it forward not sideways, we can get Robbie Savage if we just want someone to play it 5 yards sideways. Which is what frustrated me when Alonso was having his bad games (he's had a couple this season too btw).

I don't believe Alonso will ever be as good as Masch as a defensive player, but Masch will never be able to pass a ball like Alonso can. Who's better ? It doesn't really matter to me as long as they are both performing to their best for Liverpool.

But believe me he IS playing better at the moment, rather than just results going our way.

Its all to do with the result. If Alonso and Gerrard had been on the losing side yesterday they'd still have played blinders. From start to finish they done everything right and without a doubt they were the reason (just as much if not more so than Nando) that we won that game.

Thats true but not more then nando and Keane as if they didn't do what they did we would have not scored.

I feel it was just a great Team effort simple as that only player I felt didn't do really well was Dosser but tbh 1 player can not perform and some times it won't cost you.

You can't say that lad... one pass at the start of the game alters the pattern for ninety minutes. If a player plays a bad ball straight away a team can sometimes fail to settle. Anything can happen, its a rediculous way of looking at things... how dya know if Keane and Torres hadn't played Xabi and Stevie wouldn't have been shooting from a distance more? Ya don't. Simple as.

Well that might be the case but end of day they did play and they both played roles in the win so unless you have a way to go back in time and a way to get them out of the game I feel it pointless to talk about this as niether of us can prove that out come. :wwww

But it was a team effort and you can't prove me wrong so. :rasp

by **ConnO'var** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:39 am

s@int wrote:I think when you have a player that can pass a ball like he can, we need him playing it forward not sideways.
.
.
.
.
I don't believe Alonso will ever be as good as Masch as a defensive player, but Masch will never be able to pass a ball like Alonso can. Who's better ? It doesn't really matter to me as long as they are both performing to their best for Liverpool.

But believe me he IS playing better at the moment, rather than just results going our way.

**** Apologies for editing your post mate, but I wanted to discuss the relevant points you'd raised without diluting it.

This is an excellent point. With Xabi's attacking ability, this is precisely why him and Gerrard aren't as good a partnership as Gerrard and Masch or (I suspect but could be VERY wrong here) Xabi and Masch. They just don't gell as well as they could (though the last game has put the kibosh on that particular theory).

I still think that with wide players on both flanks, Xabi is most effective. Thinking back to the days when he was at his best, he had outlets on both wings in the form Gerrard and the much maligned, Kewell as well as a destroyer in Momo. It may be early but Rieira is looking good at the moment down the left and Mascherano may not be a destroyer like Momo but is a much better defensive midfielder and overall footballer so the stage may be set for a Masch-Xabi partnership.... This of course would mean that the Stevie has to move out to the right in order for us to have our best balanced and best manned midfield.

Of course, many will feel that Gerrard is best in the middle (myself included) but we didn't solve our right midfield dilemma in the last transfer window so an adjustment is needed.

There can be no doubt in my mind that we SHOULD play our best players on the field as often as possible. This means that the following players need to be in...

Reina
Arbeloa
Carra
Skrtel (Just shades it over Agger at the mo.... based on form)
Aurelio (Dossena is still a little iffy)
Stevie
Xabi
Masch
Rieira
Keane
Torres.

As none of our top 4 midfielders can play on the right with the exception of Gerrard (who's proven in that position)..... The choice becomes clear....

I'm really glad Xabi decided to stay and the club didn't deem it necessary to let him go in order to strengthen the weaker positions. I believe that the whole drama of will he go/won't he go will strengthen his resolve to prove his worth and with the pieces now available, I strongly feel that we'll see the return of the best of Xabi.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:59 am

I believe in stats as a mathematical tool when the samples you get are big enough, I use them often in fact. Which is why I don't pay attention to many footie stats.

Joe's stats will be more interesting after 2 seasons than after 5 games, that is.

But it's interesting to notice, that being Alonso playing well, his "direct assist" stats say zero assists, and his indirect assists, four, more than anyone else.

I'm not even happy with the indirect assists concept, as a change of orientation in the right moment won't bring an indirect assist, but will help the team's attack.

Since direct stats were used to question Alonso's pass quality and creativity, I just wanted to question the validity of such a measurement to say something useful about a CM that spends a lot of time in deep positions and dictating the tempo.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:13 am

Sabre wrote:I believe in stats as a mathematical tool when the samples you get are big enough, I use them often in fact. Which is why I don't pay attention to many footie stats.

Joe's stats will be more interesting after 2 seasons than after 5 games, that is.

But it's interesting to notice, that being Alonso playing well, his "direct assist" stats say zero assists, and his indirect assists, four, more than anyone else.

I'm not even happy with the indirect assists concept, as a change of orientation in the right moment won't bring an indirect assist, but will help the team's attack.

Since direct stats were used to question Alonso's pass quality and creativity, I just wanted to question the validity of such a measurement to say something useful about a CM that spends a lot of time in deep positions and dictating the tempo.

Stats are only of use if you get them right Sabre....... Alonso has one Assist........ Torres goal at Sunderland

Same as he got in the whole of last season and the season before!

What is interesting when looking at Xabi's stats is how much better they are for this season than for the past two seasons.

While his attempts created is no better, his number of passes and his accurate passes are much better,and he has also lost a lot less tackles.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:59 am

I'm not a big fan of stats, I prefer to believe what I can see. Keane made the first goal on Saturday by running down a slightly overhit pass and getting a good ball into the box. The Everton defenders helped by giving the ball up and ball watching. LFC mentioned Kuyts influence, and there was some in that he got himself out of the way, but he actually took Lescott with him who was playing left-back and not actually marking Torres anyway. Yobo and Jagielka seemed to think like everyone else that the ball was going out and switched off.

The second goal was once again made by Keane's astute pass. I noticed someone tried to give the assist to Kuyt, but if we are going to start giving out assists for being tackled then it's really going to get silly. In actual fact on this occasion Kuys influence was greater as it was Jagielka who went to ground tackling him, which in turn freed up Torres. Similarly the stats might call Alonso's header to Torres (against Sunderland) an assist, but to my mind when a bloke picks it up thirty five yards from goal, makes himself some space and buries it in the bottom corner, it's kind of an individual effort if you ask me, no assist involved.

Now I've talked a fair bit recently about people being in danger of losing credibility by either making ridiculous comparisons, or taking mind boggling stances on situations in order to strengthen their point. Whilst it is obvious that Xabi is some peoples favourite player, and equally it is clear that he hasn't ever been as bad as some people have made out, clearly it is there for all to see that he is currently playing to a level above and beyond what he has played at for some time. Now we can massage stats all we like, or say it's because the team are winning that we are noticing him, but to me it's as obvious as the nose on your face that he's playing well, much better than he was previously.

Ultimately it is as simple as that I think.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:07 pm

Joe? I cannot see that assist in the excel files, no wonder Alonso has zero assists if those are not counted! I took that stat from Joe's sheet number two. I think he didn't include it as an assist because the run of Torres was long.

Seriously S@int, you're right, stats are useful if you understand them and you get them right. You have to measure the right variables with a big enough sample. I understand stats, I wasted two years at the uni with them.

his number of passes and his accurate passes are much better,and he has also lost a lot less tackles.

Is that so?

Do you follow somewhere his number of passes and number of lost tackles? If you take into consideration those variables, you will have a better measurement, and if those variables are better along the time, it would be safe to say Alonso is playing better with numbers. But not with assists. In the assist you mention, the Torres one against Sunderland, let's be honest, Alonso got that assist because of the utter quality and pace of Torres in that action.

In a nutshell: Are stats valid? yes, if the samples are big and you have enough variables under control. It's like weather prediction, which at the end of the day uses a lot of variables and stats, the more variables you control (that is the better computer you have), the more accurate the broadcast will be.

If you take into consideration assists, and indirect assists, that's just two variables. If you consider, assists, indirect assists, bad passes, lost tackles, you'll have a better measurement, but not definitive, because the quality of passes cannot be determined with numbers.

And always you have to consider that stats are conditioned. Give a world class striker to a passer, and you'll make the same player a great assistant. Give him a cráp striker and his assists might be zero in 4 years. It's the same player, so how can we trust a single stat to say something about a player when this stat depends on other players?

Lost passes often are a mistake of the passer. But sometimes the receiver stays waiting for the ball instead of looking for it, so a bad pass can be a mistake of the receiver. Did the stat take into consideration that? No.

If you, S@int, tell me that Alonso is playing better, I believe you. Because I respect your years as a fan, and your naked eye. I trust much more your naked eye and judgement than the stats, because most of the time they don't tell the story.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:09 pm

bigmick wrote:I'm not a big fan of stats, I prefer to believe what I can see. Keane made the first goal on Saturday by running down a slightly overhit pass and getting a good ball into the box. The Everton defenders helped by giving the ball up and ball watching. LFC mentioned Kuyts influence, and there was some in that he got himself out of the way, but he actually took Lescott with him who was playing left-back and not actually marking Torres anyway. Yobo and Jagielka seemed to think like everyone else that the ball was going out and switched off.

The second goal was once again made by Keane's astute pass. I noticed someone tried to give the assist to Kuyt, but if we are going to start giving out assists for being tackled then it's really going to get silly. In actual fact on this occasion Kuys influence was greater as it was Jagielka who went to ground tackling him, which in turn freed up Torres. Similarly the stats might call Alonso's header to Torres an assist, but to my mind when a bloke picks it up thirty five yards from goal, makes himself some space and buries it in the bottom corner, it's kind of an individual effort if you ask me, no assist involved.

Now I've talked a fair bit recently about people being in danger of losing credibility by either making ridiculous comparisons, or taking mind boggling stances on situations in order to strengthen their point. Whilst it is obvious that Xabi is some peoples favourite player, and equally it is clear that he hasn't ever been as bad as some people have made out, clearly it is there for all to see that he is currently playing to a level above and beyond what he has played at for some time. Now we can massage stats all we like, or say it's because the team are winning that we are noticing him, but to me it's as obvious as the nose on your face that he's playing well, much better than he was previously.

Ultimately it is as simple as that I think.

I agree to a certain extent that looking at assists in isolation is a bit pointless...you need the context. I've grudgingly included them in the Match Info thread but I think the goal synopses tell the broader story of who contributed and how.

As for Kuyt, I think he did something crucial for both goals yesterday...he got in the box. If there was no Kuyt in the box making the near post run for the first goal, Lescott deals with the cross and the chance is lost. For the second, if Kuyt doesn't get on his bike and head for the box after feeding Keane there's no one for the Irishman to slide the ball to and he perhaps gets crowded out by the 4 blue shirts around him. As it was, Kuyt made the run, forced a tackle and the ball fell to Torres, again unmarked because we had an extra attacker in the box. Whether either contribution constitutes an "assist" in the stastical sense is neither here nor there for me...he helped make two goals, simple as.

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