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by **JoeTerp** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:48 pm

Sabre wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:I never made the claim that ridding the world of religion would rid of the world of harm. I say that ridding the world of religion would rid of the world of harm caused by religion. Seems to make sense to me.

Yes it does.

The problem is that religions is the answer for some of the needs of human intellect.

When in Spain you have removed the utter catholicism of past centuries, what brought that? culture? Science? Peace? Freedom?

No, it brought love for money, love for greed, other religions, other idols.

The world doesn't work like that, it's not as simple as removing a problem, and expect it to be solved. Sometimes when you fix a hole, 5 new appear.

I would argue that the problem was then never fixed in the first place. Replacing one religion with another is not the same as removing religion.

I would certainly debate whether or not there are any benefits to religion, and if there were, I am still not sure if it justifies their existence if they are based on falsehoods.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:39 pm

JoeTerp wrote:I would certainly debate whether or not there are any benefits to religion, and if there were, I am still not sure if it justifies their existence if they are based on falsehoods.

I agree Joe, especially with the bit in bold.

by **Sabre** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:54 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
Sabre wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:I never made the claim that ridding the world of religion would rid of the world of harm. I say that ridding the world of religion would rid of the world of harm caused by religion. Seems to make sense to me.

Yes it does.

The problem is that religions is the answer for some of the needs of human intellect.

When in Spain you have removed the utter catholicism of past centuries, what brought that? culture? Science? Peace? Freedom?

No, it brought love for money, love for greed, other religions, other idols.

The world doesn't work like that, it's not as simple as removing a problem, and expect it to be solved. Sometimes when you fix a hole, 5 new appear.

I would argue that the problem was then never fixed in the first place. Replacing one religion with another is not the same as removing religion.

I would certainly debate whether or not there are any benefits to religion, and if there were, I am still not sure if it justifies their existence if they are based on falsehoods.

Falsehoods?

Falsehood is to say you want freedom for a country when you what you really want is their oil or when some members said months back that they were neutral towards our manager! that's falsehood.

If you want to justify the existence of things based on falsehood you should start by not justifying the existence of all your politicians and mine. Falsehood! if anything has been a constant in fúcking mankind that's falsehood!

Mankind has lived on falsehood all their history and they have used religion, freedom, or whatever concept they had available to get to their objectives

My religion if anything is based on love. Which is not false.

I don't base my religion on beliefs such as a woman coming from a man's rib, and to try to understand the world I use our limited Science.

Some of the things written in the bible are not to be taken literally, and I am not theologist anyway.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:03 pm

I do not think that I could posibly justify the existence of gov't or polticians. Thats why I'm a Voluntaryist.

by **Sabre** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:58 pm

JoeTerp wrote:I do not think that I could posibly justify the existence of gov't or polticians. Thats why I'm a Voluntaryist.

The guy that made the symbol of voluntarysm was the same one that made the flag of Maryland? seems of the same design!

I hadn't time before to discuss, and to be honest, I don't have the language resources to discuss some of the matters about the topic in question Joe.

Probably I can talk more badly about the Catholicism than the protestants around here. I know the history of the Church, I know the mistakes of current Church, I hate the OPUS DEI and other organizations in the Vatican.

Also, as a scientist, I don't buy the genesis as the explanation of the universe. If that's the falsehoods you reffered to, I don't believe in them. I just believe those are texts, too many times translated, and that originally tried to explain things that are unexplainable in a language that could be understood.

I do believe in the existence of Jesus and I do believe in a God, but that doesn't make me less free than you are or less willing to find answers. I've seen religious men that were faithful to the spirit of love I've described earlier that makes me think religion can be a good thing and an answer to soul problems. (BTW I'm still waiting an explanation of consciousness, and the best computer I've ever known, the brain)

I've also known some men that had that tendency to love being of other religions, or even atheist. But I do believe religion, if we forget about some of the traditions that the Church and other religions brought, can be a good thing for soul. I've seen destroyed men that were on the verge of self destruction and sticking to life through religion. Those evidences were good enough for me to make me think that religion gave that man an extra strenght.

you could argue that that man could be helped with psichology, and I don't deny that, it's just to prove my point that religion, can be a good thing.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:21 pm

well I think being "spiritual" (although I don't really like that word for it) and being religious are two different things. Religion can teach people that they are born into sin, that god is listening to all of their thoughts and that even thinking the wrong things can be sins, religion teaches that homosexuality is wrong, etc. etc.

Sam Harris is someone that is on the one hand a militant athiest and anti-theist, but also is very much into mysticism, spirituality, meditation, etc. and thinks the practices need to be examined from a more scientific perspective with all the religious myth aspect of it stripped away, because its clear that some people do have incredible experiences and things.

the flag of maryland is the comination of the two family flags that set up the colony here. Maryland was originally set up as a colony for Catholics (I was born a Catholic and was confirmed in the Catholic church and attended a Xaverian Brothers Catholic school). The only similarities I see are the black and gold. Black and gold of voluntarism represents (black) anarchism and (gold) money, specifically gold backed money. Sometimes there is a V for Voluntary, meaning that all interactions between humans should be on a voluntary basis, and sometimes that V is in the shape of a human hand making the V with the index and middle fingers, known as the peace sign in America (don't know if its universal), because of the non-agression principle.

I don't know about this guy's "political" beliefs, but I would imagine they aren't too far off based on what I have read about his economic beliefs (EDIT, on further reading, he does seem to be an anarchist)

Jesus Huerta de Soto

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