Liverpool FC Forum

by **Octsky** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:17 pm

My stand is if there are other better coaches who are willing and able (Wenger or Hiddink), Rafa should go.
we are in this striker situation partly becoz of Rafa, good strikers like Crouch, Keane, Bellamy are allowed to go without proper replacements.
And it seems like players' confidence are low now, the season may already be over soon and Aquaman may not even need to lace a boot.

by **Bammo** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:30 pm

Didn't Torres replace Bellamy? Or is he not proper?

A (genuine!) question for all of those who are currently slating the quality of the squad: did you think it was this poor at the end of last season and that we were over-achieving, or did you think it was good then but the loss of Alonso/Arbeloa has turned everyone else rubbish?

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:38 pm

Bammo wrote:Didn't Torres replace Bellamy? Or is he not proper?

A (genuine!) question for all of those who are currently slating the quality of the squad: did you think it was this poor at the end of last season and that we were over-achieving, or did you think it was good then but the loss of Alonso/Arbeloa has turned everyone else rubbish?

Arby can be taken out of the equation IMO as we have Johnson whom is a far better player. as for Alonso, its simply down to rafa's arrogance and stubborn nature that he bought an injured player, due to his faith in a certain brazilian. no way in hell is Lucas capable of being a first team player in Liverpool. the team, even last season was poor. i felt that players that left had inferior replacements such as Voronin, Babel, Ngog, Degen, Dossena, Diego, etc. and one thing that stands out like a sore thumb with regards to our team is that for YEARS none of our players bar Torres and Gerrard and maybe El Zhar are capable of a moment's brilliance to turn the match in our favour. our attack is simply pathetic. would be 100% garbage if not for the existence of Torres.

by **Reg** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:48 pm

I am a loyal Rafa fan but by god he's testing my patience.... quite franky I agree with the comment if Hiddink (not Wenger) was available I´d go for him.

by **Octsky** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:48 pm

Bammo wrote:Didn't Torres replace Bellamy? Or is he not proper?

A (genuine!) question for all of those who are currently slating the quality of the squad: did you think it was this poor at the end of last season and that we were over-achieving, or did you think it was good then but the loss of Alonso/Arbeloa has turned everyone else rubbish?

Torres is a man not GOD, he has his off days and injuries. Thats why it like you will always name a back-up GK on the bench incase sh.1.t happens. Well, sh.1.t is happening to the team now.

We sold Bellamy for 7-8 mil, but would you wish that he was back in the team now for 10 mil? Some said Bellamy was a disruption to the team chemistry, but Cantona is no angel too. But the old fox managed to integrate him into the team and the rest is history.

Similarly i would love to have Crouch and Keane back into the team for the same amount we have sold them for. Okay we did overpaid for Keane in the amount of 5 mil, but i wish Rafa has given him more time to prove himself.

We overachieved last season, but you dont expect every day to be a Sunday. Its like you managed to get on the last train yesterday but it doesnt mean that you will be so lucky everyday.

by **Greavesie** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:08 pm

I agree with Reg, I love Rafa but he's starting to get on my t!ts, we needed a good summer transfer market and brought in a RB and thats it. I know we've got Aqua but I'f afraid its gonna be all over before he's even stuck a shirt on...

by **tonyeh** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:02 pm

Bammo wrote:Didn't Torres replace Bellamy? Or is he not proper?

A (genuine!) question for all of those who are currently slating the quality of the squad: did you think it was this poor at the end of last season and that we were over-achieving, or did you think it was good then but the loss of Alonso/Arbeloa has turned everyone else rubbish?

Well...while we had a good run in the very latter half of last season, to be honest, Liverpool didn't play too many great games before the win over Real Madrid in the CL in April (?). The vast majority of matches in 08/09 were pretty poor.

I think the loss of Alonso, while it wouldn't have the impact of "turn(ing) everyone else rubbish", has been a very significant factor. That's impossible to deny. It must be apparent now to everyone that his influence in midfield was pretty important to the shape that Benitez has demanded of the team.

The bottom line is, we need more upfront and we need to replace the loss in midfield. Because at the moment when Torres is out we have nothing upfront and our centre midfield has no attack.

by **Bammo** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:06 pm

Hypothetically speaking, say Aquilani is as influential as Alonso was. Does that mean if we bought a top class striker/attacker then our squad would be good enough?

by **tonyeh** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:18 pm

It depends. it's not only the problems with the depth of talent in the squad that's the problem. I think a lot rests on Benitez's shoulders. I think he's far too conservative and is more concerned with not losing a game than winning it. He's way too robotic in his subs policy and leaves it far too late to change problems on the pitch, even when they are very apparent. I know there's not a lot of talent sitting on the subs bench at the moment, but again, that's Benitez' fault.

Either way, Liverpool (in present form + for the last few seasons) will always be reliant on the others in the so called "big 4" to slip up during a season, because we are never sure of results against any team in the Premiership and I don't see any changes in that at the moment.

by **Bammo** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:40 pm

I agree that it's frustrating the way we approach certain games. I'm not saying we should be reckless but unless it's the big 4 (or 5 or whatever it is now!) I think we should go out and play with freedom. Whilst the squad needs improvement in certain areas (like CM and Striker) it's still capable of tonking most teams.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:14 pm

heimdall wrote:
Big Niall wrote:We only have two top class players and one of those came through the LFC system. With the exception of Torres I can't see any outfield player that Rafa has bought that I'd look to to turn a game.

I'd add Reina and Johnson to the list of good signings but beyond that it starts to get tricky, Benni on his day is fantastic but all too often goes missing and Mascha has always had an attitude problem and plays for himself far more than the team. As for the rest of the players they are average, under a motivational manager they would do a hell of a lot better but with Mr. Buzzkill in charge they haven't got a chance.

I snuck the word "outfield" in as I wasn't sure on whether Reina is world class - he might be.

Too early to tell about Johnson though.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:42 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:1) Warnock > dossena
2) Cisse > babel
3) Riise > dossena
4) Hamann > lucas
5) Finnan > degen
6) Fowler > ngog
7) Crouch > voronin
8) Hyypia - greekos

This list is complete W*nk. Here's why:

Warnock - solid enough, prone to dodgy errors at back far too often. Was inconsistent. Nowhere near good enough going forward. Not surprised he got sold.

Cisse - complete pudding and broke his legs twice. Head down, strike, balloon over the bar. Never lifted his head to look around him. lack of football brain. All pace. Just like Babel. Only Babel is used a wide player.

Riise - didn't mind him to be honest. Solid enough, but was starting to lose some form. Another left back? Hardly a problematic area, is it?

Hamann - getting on a bit, wasn't he?

Finnan - ditto

Fowler - ditto part 3

Crouch - felt sorry for the big lad and was treated harshly at the time. Still, nowhere near LFC standard, was he? In saying that. this is where Rafa is possibly culpable of making the mistake of not replacing with a viable secondary striker, for whatever reasons, only he knows. I have my guesses.

Hyypia - served us 10 years. Gave us an extra term when he didn't have to. Wanted a new challenge and was in the twilight of his career. Best to leave before the wheels of the cart start falling off and be remembered for a legend rather than someone who's past it? Sol Campbell ring a bell?

How we all wish we could still have our Rushes and Barns' of yesteryear. Fact is, they get old. We move on.

It's also interesting whenever someone mentions the players Rafa shouldn't have let go (according to their opinion) that they fail to neglect the players he brought in to replace the absolute tripe we had in the squad from top-to-bottom. This squad we had would be fine pre-Abramovich and City's spending juggernaut.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:52 pm

Reg wrote:Time to be honest - Babel has not shown he has the required ability to take Liverpool to a higher level and Spearing likewise is insignificant compared to real midfielders who dominate games and dictate their courses.

We need to buy in quality and the only way to pay for them is to get rid of the journeymen.

The fact that Spearing and Lucas were our main pairing on Saturday is enough evidence to show that the squad is far too depleted. However, in saying that, we had 5 of our potential first 11 out due to injury, so it's hardly surprising. You have those two as the engine room and is it any surprise to anyone that we played so badly? Those two are nothing more than squad fillers at best. If people want us to have a squad like City of Chelsea, then we have to start spending 10-20 million on players who'll probably do nothing more than keep the bench warm. Do we have that kind of cash? No. Simple as that. We're lucky to spend 18 million on a first team player at right back, nevermind a back up for other areas.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:54 pm

I think the point the fella is making though Emerald isn't that the likes of Cisse were top players, far from it. I think he is sayign that despite his obvious limitations he is better than what we have instead aside obviously from Torres. In fairness he is correct as well. To be fair, so is Crouch, Bellamy, Baros, Pongolle and Keane.

Now as you point out, there were valid reasons for moving on all those players on that list, but it's common sense that if you replace them with inferior players the value of the squad in a footballing sense will go down. Once Aquilani starts, we'll be able to make a judgement on whther or not the squad and team have improved with him in it as opposed to Alonso. That won't change the apparent fact that we had no choice but to sell Alonso of course, but replacing players and remaining successful is what good managers do. It's what Ferguson has done three or four times over and is doing this season after losing Tevez and Ronaldo, and it's what wenger has done mnay times over as well. It's what we must aim for too surely.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:04 pm

bigmick wrote:I think the point the fella is making though Emerald isn't that the likes of Cisse were top players, far from it. I think he is sayign that despite his obvious limitations he is better than what we have instead aside obviously from Torres. In fairness he is correct as well. To be fair, so is Crouch, Bellamy, Baros, Pongolle and Keane.

Now as you point out, there were valid reasons for moving on all those players on that list, but it's common sense that if you replace them with inferior players the value of the squad in a footballing sense will go down. Once Aquilani starts, we'll be able to make a judgement on whther or not the squad and team have improved with him in it as opposed to Alonso. That won't change the apparent fact that we had no choice but to sell Alonso of course, but replacing players and remaining successful is what good managers do. It's what Ferguson has done three or four times over and is doing this season after losing Tevez and Ronaldo, and it's what wenger has done mnay times over as well. It's what we must aim for too surely.

Yes, but Mick, it's not exactly as if we went out and spent 10 million on Voronin, and 10 million on N'Go, is it? The mamanger has to balance the books in some way, and if we are skint for sure, then getting Voronin and N'go for practically nothing to fill a squad berth is surely evidence enough that we just don't have the funds in order to get your David Villa's of this world. Yeah, sure, we spent on Keane; but from what I gathered Keane wasn't the kind of player to accept sitting on the bench behind who is arguably the best striker on the planet. If Keane's attitude wasn't up to it, then Rafa was right in getting shot as soon as he did. Like I said, Rafa is guilty for not replacing or recruiting a decent secondary striker. Houllier was also guilty of things like this. Look at Anelka. I can't believe we let him go. Once again, that was the club not being prepared to stick their hands in the pocket.

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The squad: not good enough /wo gerrard and torres - Who's fault is it?

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