The squad: not good enough /wo gerrard and torres - Who's fault is it?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

The squad: not good enough /wo gerrard and torres - Who's fault is it?

Rafa, the idiot and clown
7
9%
Owners, the lying *****
11
14%
Rafa & Owners, both parties have to share the responsibility
36
47%
What are you talking about? The squad is strong enough it's Rafa's incompetence
3
4%
What are you talking abuot? It's just an unlucky streak for us, soon enough we'll be firing on all cylinders
7
9%
Feckin Parry
7
9%
Others, you must have a very creative mind to choose this...
5
7%
 
Total votes : 76

Postby Rush Job » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:49 am

Octsky wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Some people on here need some lessons on modern football formations. In modern football, there is no such thing as a formation being a defensive or offensive. It really depends on how you execute it and what type of players are playing. If you're playing Johnson and Aurelio as wing backs can it be called a 5-3-1? or is it 3-5-1. Well the answer is that it is BOTH! this is the flexibility of this system and you need to have wingbacks who have lots of stamina. If you're pressing your opponents the wingbacks attack and become 3-5-1. If you're defending the wing backs track back and becomes 5-3-1. Similarly if you're playing 3 in the middle than it can be the offensive 4-3-3 or defensive 4-5-1 or it can also still be a 4-4-2 (see Gerrard and Torres attacking). People on here seem to just see what they wanna see and say "arghh how can rafa play 4-5-1  (worse 5-4-1) against this team or that team". Yesterday we had kuyt, babel and benayoun as attacking players and johnson and aurelio also joins in the attacks from the wings. Can't it be said then that this is 3-2-2-3? To me it looked like a pretty balanced team and shouldn't have any problems beating Sunderland on paper. And yet we have people generalizing it "ughhh rafa is playing 5-4-1 against Sunderland".  :no  The old-fasion-ness on here sometimes beggars believe.

Playing 5-4-1 or as u said 3-5-2 has long long been countered by 4-4-2 and model formation of 4-3-3 has been used recently to counter the conventional 4-4-2.

Why played 3 centre backs when they cant even properly marked 2 CF??

Why isolate a single CF on top when we need to win this game?

the problem of playing 3 CB is that you dont need 3 CB to mark 2 average CF (ok, Bent is just a bit above avg), u dont need 3 CB when you are chasing a goal. He11, i used to remember the Mourner or old fergie playing CB as target man in the dying min to grab a precious goal.

If there's an argument of Ngog and Voronin not being good enough to start and lead the line with Kuyt when Torres is down, then why are they still in the club?? Why is there no backup for Torres? or why are there backups but u dont trust them to lead the line when needed, then why are they still here?
you dont need to be a rocket scientist to tell that Torres wont be playing every single game.

if we played 5-4-1 against the great Sunderland team, then how are we going to play against Manyoo? 6-3-1?? or 7-2-1??

I think the extra CB was to counter us being light down the middle.
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Postby parchpea » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:24 am

Liverpools problems start and end with the manager. He has recruited poorly and his strategy has been blown out of the water. Yes we have real issues off the park but lets be honest he has invested his transfer budgets poorly leaving us with a real ordinary group of players. The club has seen this film before and we know how it ends and right now the cast is playing out the final scenes.
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Postby Sabre » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:29 am

I think the extra CB was to counter us being light down the middle.


Last time I remember we used 3 CB in a premier game, we won 0-3 away.

I don't have problems with the formation. The only thing debatable for me is the selection of players. It seems he rested people like Mascherano and Riera. Probably because we're at problems at the CL. It's true that other managers around the world have left internationals of the Uruguay-Argentina out of the games (Forlan for instance), but I would have liked to see a stronger team.
Last edited by Sabre on Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bunglemark2 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:39 am

Sabre wrote:
I think the extra CB was to counter us being light down the middle.


Last time I remember we used 3 CB in a premier game, we won 0-3 away.

I don't have problems with the formation. The only thing debatable for me is the selection of players. It seems he rested people like Mascherano and Riera. Probably because we're at problems at the CL. It's true that other managers around the world have left internationals of the Uruguay-Argentina out of the games (Forlan for instance), but I would have liked to see a stronger team.

Sabre - we don't HAVE a stronger team. We have a pi$$ poor bench. We're streets behind the others in the league in terms of quality replacements. FFS, look at Spurs this season !!

To be perfectly honest, Rafa has made so many duff decisions in the transfer market over the years, has failed to promote from within (and by that I mean quality players from within - Plessis, Spearing and others just don't have what it takes), and has made the wrong decisions with other players...What the phuck is that young fella doing over in Greece banging in goals when we're begging for an Owen-esque, or Fowler-esque player right now ?
The middle of the park is a joke. We sign a player who will first play for the team when we are too far behind to even challenge for honours. Rafa has screwed up big time. And his apparent indifference to the result at the weekend speaks volumes to me...
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Postby made in UK » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:13 am

"Rafa & Owners, both parties have to share the responsibility" that is what I voted for. I don't like what I see and hear from our owners who seek to undermine the fans and manager of LFC at every turn. I do like Rafa but as Southcoastshankly stated, things have seemed to gone a bit stale. When he has had the money the buys haven't always been good, like most managers. But Rafa is in a precarious position when it comes to the transfer market now. Rafa simply cannot afford to make bad buys because of our owners. I'm not saying that if you have billions to spend that its okay to buy some duds. But there is a leaway there never the less and that is something Rafa does not have at the moment. He had more leaway with money when Moores was at the club.  Playing Lucas, Spearing, N'gog, Babel and Voronin (who was free, but his wages aren't) against Sunderland just shows how backward our team/squad has gone.
Last edited by made in UK on Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby red_guy » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:56 am

Sabre wrote:
I think the extra CB was to counter us being light down the middle.


Last time I remember we used 3 CB in a premier game, we won 0-3 away.

I don't have problems with the formation. The only thing debatable for me is the selection of players. It seems he rested people like Mascherano and Riera. Probably because we're at problems at the CL. It's true that other managers around the world have left internationals of the Uruguay-Argentina out of the games (Forlan for instance), but I would have liked to see a stronger team.

yes.. the selection of the players is the problem. But just like most here said, we have a below average selections from the bench. Maybe i am wrong about this but i think we have  better players a few seasons back... reminds me of the last days of Houllier as our manager. Just like u said, we need a stronger team.... which means we should sign a new set of players to replace Babel, voronin, Spearing and Lucas. I would rather have Biscan, Mellor and Sinama ponggole back than relying on Babel and the gang for the rest of the season.
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Postby SouthCoastShankly » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:09 am

red_guy wrote:
Sabre wrote:
I think the extra CB was to counter us being light down the middle.


Last time I remember we used 3 CB in a premier game, we won 0-3 away.

I don't have problems with the formation. The only thing debatable for me is the selection of players. It seems he rested people like Mascherano and Riera. Probably because we're at problems at the CL. It's true that other managers around the world have left internationals of the Uruguay-Argentina out of the games (Forlan for instance), but I would have liked to see a stronger team.

yes.. the selection of the players is the problem. But just like most here said, we have a below average selections from the bench. Maybe i am wrong about this but i think we have  better players a few seasons back... reminds me of the last days of Houllier as our manager. Just like u said, we need a stronger team.... which means we should sign a new set of players to replace Babel, voronin, Spearing and Lucas. I would rather have Biscan, Mellor and Sinama ponggole back than relying on Babel and the gang for the rest of the season.

Slightly disagree.

Voronin and Lucas yeah but both Babel and Spearing have potential.

Babel performs well enough at international level, therefore the issue here must be playing position and/or mentality. Possibly he isn't motivated playing for Rafa?

Spearing has shown en ough potential in my opinion to have a run of games in the premiership, especially as the common consensus is that Lucas shouldn't be wearing a Liverpool shirt. I believe if you give Spearing the opportunities that Lucas has been given you will see a better player than Lucas ever was/is.
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Postby bunglemark2 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:16 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
red_guy wrote:
Sabre wrote:
I think the extra CB was to counter us being light down the middle.


Last time I remember we used 3 CB in a premier game, we won 0-3 away.

I don't have problems with the formation. The only thing debatable for me is the selection of players. It seems he rested people like Mascherano and Riera. Probably because we're at problems at the CL. It's true that other managers around the world have left internationals of the Uruguay-Argentina out of the games (Forlan for instance), but I would have liked to see a stronger team.

yes.. the selection of the players is the problem. But just like most here said, we have a below average selections from the bench. Maybe i am wrong about this but i think we have  better players a few seasons back... reminds me of the last days of Houllier as our manager. Just like u said, we need a stronger team.... which means we should sign a new set of players to replace Babel, voronin, Spearing and Lucas. I would rather have Biscan, Mellor and Sinama ponggole back than relying on Babel and the gang for the rest of the season.

Slightly disagree.

Voronin and Lucas yeah but both Babel and Spearing have potential.

Babel performs well enough at international level, therefore the issue here must be playing position and/or mentality. Possibly he isn't motivated playing for Rafa?

Spearing has shown en ough potential in my opinion to have a run of games in the premiership, especially as the common consensus is that Lucas shouldn't be wearing a Liverpool shirt. I believe if you give Spearing the opportunities that Lucas has been given you will see a better player than Lucas ever was/is.

Mate, how many years now has Babel had "potential" ? At what point does "potential" become a ludicrous excuse for not performing ? He had the chance on Saturday to stake a claim, in a favoured striker position, no excuses being out on the wing, and what's the result - Groundhog Day....

Ditto for Rafa....I'm going to nail my flag to the mast here and say enough is enough.....Far too many excuses from players and manager alike.....
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Postby Reg » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:42 am

Time to be honest - Babel has not shown he has the required ability to take Liverpool to a higher level and Spearing likewise is insignificant compared to real midfielders who dominate games and dictate their courses.

We need to buy in quality and the only way to pay for them is to get rid of the journeymen.
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Postby parchpea » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:31 pm

You can only make excuses for people for so long and these lads and management are paid a hell of a lot of moeny to get the job done. I understand loyalty and sticking by people but at some point you have to accept that it is simply not working and move on, and we have that to resolve with both playing and management staff at the club. Some of these boys such as Babel, Lucas and lets face it a whole host more, just have not cut it and produced the goods for the football club. Poor Spearing is thrown in there, a local lad trying to make the most of a rare chance, but clearly way out of his depth and with Lucas along side him. Benitez put this team together and coaches and manages it every single day of the week but depsite his best efforts we are going nowhere and now predicatbly are slipping backwards. If people feel Rafa should be spared blame and consider he has worked with one hand tied behind his back then fair enough, but if he is unable to work within perceived constraints then we need someone in who can operate and get us moving forward in this enviroment. His recruitment of young players has been diabolical and we havent seen one of these young foreign lads make a mark or improve the side under his stewardship.We have zero coming through the youth set up and if Spearing is the best of that group then with respect we have a problem there as well. The first team squad is now so bereft of quality we are left with nothing on the football pitch when our two best players are sidelined and the buck stops with Benitez there. He recruited and moulded this Liverpool team, no one else. Had this manager been at any other top 4 club in Europe he would have removed already let alone been in post as we speak here today.
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Postby Reg » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:38 pm

parchpea wrote:Had this manager been at any other top 4 club in Europe he would have removed already let alone been in post as we speak here today.

Difficult to argue against that.

But we cant afford a new manager any more than we can new players!!  :blush:
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Postby Big Niall » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:45 pm

We only have two top class players and one of those came through the LFC system. With the exception of Torres I can't see any outfield player that Rafa has bought that I'd look to to turn a game.
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Postby puroresu » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:44 pm

I see Alan Hansen made a point about Rafa's signings in the £3 mil to £10 mil raNge being worse than his rivals.  I would tend to agree with that in the sense Wenger has picked up a silly amount of gems within that range while Fergie got Evra and Vidic.

The signing of young players seems a problem.  Over the last 2 years we seems to have signed a lot of young players but not seen much of them.

I would love to of seen the Carling cup used as a platform or as an indicator of the level of young players we have.  I cant see Rafa putting out a real young team v Arsenal though.
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Postby heimdall » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:47 pm

Big Niall wrote:We only have two top class players and one of those came through the LFC system. With the exception of Torres I can't see any outfield player that Rafa has bought that I'd look to to turn a game.

I'd add Reina and Johnson to the list of good signings but beyond that it starts to get tricky, Benni on his day is fantastic but all too often goes missing and Mascha has always had an attitude problem and plays for himself far more than the team. As for the rest of the players they are average, under a motivational manager they would do a hell of a lot better but with Mr. Buzzkill in charge they haven't got a chance.
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Postby Dazzer » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:07 pm

puroresu wrote:I see Alan Hansen made a point about Rafa's signings in the £3 mil to £10 mil raNge being worse than his rivals.  I would tend to agree with that in the sense Wenger has picked up a silly amount of gems within that range while Fergie got Evra and Vidic.

The signing of young players seems a problem.  Over the last 2 years we seems to have signed a lot of young players but not seen much of them.

I would love to of seen the Carling cup used as a platform or as an indicator of the level of young players we have.  I cant see Rafa putting out a real young team v Arsenal though.

Yeah just like Wenger did to us what like 3 years ago now and done us like 5-1 or something ?

Rafa ain't got the balls(or confidence in his buys more like).
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