Liverpool FC Forum

by **jymbojetset** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:45 pm

stmichael wrote:the players in the "academy" are obviously not good enough though. if they were they would have already been given first team opportunities on a regular basis. john welsh is supposedly the natural successor to gerrard but i've never seen him play for us.

I know hindsight is wonderful (and pointless), but is this the true "legacy" of Houllier - the lack of good players in the acadamy or are there good players but a lack of moral?

I don't know, perhaps Benitez doesn't know. What I am saying, is that given the time scales - there SHOULD be at least one or two quality young players coming through.

Benitez has already shown he is willing to use the young players which I believe will be good for us in the long run.

Also from a business view point - who and when was the last quality footballer we bought for over £4M?

by **jymbojetset** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:46 pm

Sorry, should have read lack of morale, not moral (must have been thinking about Shrek for some reason!).

by **simic_ie** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:50 pm

stmichael wrote:the players in the "academy" are obviously not good enough though. if they were they would have already been given first team opportunities on a regular basis. john welsh is supposedly the natural successor to gerrard but i've never seen him play for us.

Maybe there is no one in the acasdemy at present who is as talented as MO or SG but surely there are players there who will do the job of a £3-4million foriegner leaving more money free for bigger signings. I mean, honestly who would you rather see play Stevie Warnock or Vlad Smicer??

by **stmichael** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:52 pm

At least there is one good sign. The Liverpool squad in full registered for the Champions League this season is as follows:

Goalkeepers

1 Jerzy Dudek
22 Chris Kirkland
40 Paul Harrison
29 Patrice Luzi

Defenders

4 Sami Hyypia
2 Stephane Henchoz
3 Steve Finnan
23 Jamie Carragher
6 John Arne Riise
17 Josemi
21 Djimi Traore
36 Jon Otsemobor
31 David Raven
37 Zak Whitbread

Midfield

8 Steven Gerrard
16 Dietmar Hamann
7 Harry Kewell
14 Xabi Alonso
10 Luis Garcia
18 Antonio Nunez
28 Stephen Warnock
11 Vladimir Smicer
25 Igor Biscan
15 Salif Diao
32 John Welsh
34 Darren Potter
26 Richie Partridge
41 Mark Smyth
42 Robbie Foy
38 David Mannix
39 Ryan Wilkie

Strikers

5 Milan Baros
9 Djibril Cisse
24 Florent Sinama-Pongolle
33 Neil Mellor

now by my calculations there are no fewer than 13 academy players in there.

by **jymbojetset** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:53 pm

simic_ie wrote:
stmichael wrote:the players in the "academy" are obviously not good enough though. if they were they would have already been given first team opportunities on a regular basis. john welsh is supposedly the natural successor to gerrard but i've never seen him play for us.

Maybe there is no one in the acasdemy at present who is as talented as MO or SG but surely there are players there who will do the job of a £3-4million foriegner leaving more money free for bigger signings. I mean, honestly who would you rather see play Stevie Warnock or Vlad Smicer??

I agree, and that was what I was trying to get to.

The total money we have wasted on non-starters, we could have played lads from the acadamy (no worse), and purchase one true quality player each season over last few years.

We couldn't possibly be any worse of than what we are now, in terms of quality players and the hangers-on.

by **jymbojetset** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:54 pm

stmichael wrote:now by my calculations there are no fewer than 13 academy players in there.

But does it concern you, the number of strikers we have, or will midfield chip in with some goals?

by **stmichael** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:09 pm

jymbojetset wrote:But does it concern you, the number of strikers we have, or will midfield chip in with some goals?

yeah it definitely concerns me that we are going to be relying heavily on cisse and baros scoring 20 goals+ each this season and i just can't see it happening. our midfield needs to score more anyway. kewell has the potential to score 15+, garcia looks like he can score goals and gerrard is currently our top scorer so maybe things aren't so bad.

we definitely need to sign a striker in the january transfer window though.

by **JBG** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:10 pm

The way I see it is the Leeds and Fiorentina disasters can be equated with the Dot.com collapse in 2000. People thought in the 1990s that loads of money could be made from football, but apart from Man UTD, this has been proved untrue.

Banks and venture capitalists will no longer risk giving the likes of Leeds and dozens of similar English clubs large loans like they did in the 1990s and the economics of football will never return to that of the 1990s.

However, business will see that merchandising is huge and will get a hell of a lot bigger so a new and "improved" attempt will be made by the money men to make a profit. A lot of clubs are in dire straits financially now and I bet that in the next 10 years they'll sell the family jewels to big business in return for marketing rights etc. What will happen is that the new investors will insist on wage caps (a very good thing) and a draft system similar to US sport (unknown if a good or bad thing) to replace the transfer system. However, the money men will want to sex up football by establishing new competitions to replace the Champions League and water down the domestic competitions so as to eliminate "unmarketable" games such as "Liverpool v Crystal Palace" or "Man UTD v. Wext Brom" and instead get loads of Liverpool v. Man UTD type games to maximise tv viewing and merchandising.

Its worrying for Liverpool fans if it happens, but disasterous if you are a Norwich or Palace fan.

The only real hope is if the EU and the Member States decide that football needs to be protected at all levels and they prevent the market from having its wicked way with the sport.

by **jymbojetset** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:17 pm

stmichael wrote:we definitely need to sign a striker in the january transfer window though.

Do we buy one for domestic purposes with aiming to get back in CL next year, or get a lower quality, but available for this years CL?

Never know, might buy MO back (like Rush) for a reduced sum!

by **redspirit** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:04 pm

John Barnes' Granny wrote:However, business will see that merchandising is huge and will get a hell of a lot bigger so a new and "improved" attempt will be made by the money men to make a profit. A lot of clubs are in dire straits financially now and I bet that in the next 10 years they'll sell the family jewels to big business in return for marketing rights etc. What will happen is that the new investors will insist on wage caps (a very good thing) and a draft system similar to US sport (unknown if a good or bad thing) to replace the transfer system. However, the money men will want to sex up football by establishing new competitions to replace the Champions League and water down the domestic competitions so as to eliminate "unmarketable" games such as "Liverpool v Crystal Palace" or "Man UTD v. Wext Brom" and instead get loads of Liverpool v. Man UTD type games to maximise tv viewing and merchandising.

Its worrying for Liverpool fans if it happens, but disasterous if you are a Norwich or Palace fan.

If it weren't for revenue sharing, salary cap, luxury tax(imposed on teams who overspend on wages and free agency), and players draft, Malcom Glazer's Tampa Bay Bucanneers of American Football, doormats of the league for not years, became champions two years ago. Small market teams such as Baltimore, Tennesee, Carolina have all gone on to become amongst the elites in the League.

How good is the drafting system? Imagine Leeds getting the first choice on every round for the most talented crop of 16 year olds this year for finishing at the bottom or close to the bottom of the table. They continue to amass the best talents in the world for the next few years and eventually, in terms of talent, become amongst the elite. This is not uncommon in baseball, the NBA, Ice Hockey, and American Football. It's beautiful because the fans of any struggling team gets to see their team develop without having to sell their best players. As long as the organization has a decent group of scouts and management team, the draft, along with the other mentioned aspects in the first paragraph to achieve parity, would work in European football.

Teams such as Norwich would become a minor league team or development team for a big team like Man U or Chelsea, where the unproven or second rated players play. With european football being the most popular sport in the world, a league of 20-30 teams with the best talent in the world is not only good for marketability, but good also for the elite players in terms of their development for them to play against the best on a weekly basis, and good for the sport to raise the level of the competition.

by **kindaconfuzed** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:33 pm

From my perspective I don't see many directors treating their jobs as making money for the club but rather more as a hobby, and if they can cream off the top so much the better.

Not sure where all the revenue comes from but each game has a potential for say £0.75m but then wages etc must come out of that.

Then there is marketing and sales of merchandise and TV but surely while just carrying out this simple excercise its apparent the creating talent and more importantly shrood buying and selling of players needs to be the priorty?

by **Redrider** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:42 pm

kindaconfuzed wrote:REdrider

If this was the case why then do clubs build new stadiums, just to let TV have a nice backdrop?

Clubs have been building bigger staadiums for the following reasons:
1.Grants available post the Taylor Report.
2.Increase the size and capability of the Corporate Sponsorship. Big time money return.
3.Better access and facility for TV, big time screening money worldwide for most games.
4.Add Conferencing and Banqueting facilities, which can be utilised 7 days a week. 52 weeks a year. Consistent year round money spinner.
5.Create facility for Pop Concerts etc. Big one off income.
6.More seats for fan's via up front payments. Debentures and Season Tickets. Improved cash flow.
7.Last of All, Better facilities and more seats for casual Fan's and Big occasion Games, low income and only happen 3 or 4 times a year. Costs a lot for low return.
You are absolutely right, increasing the nr of fan's is purely secondary.

by **JBG** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:53 pm

Good point RedSpirit, but as I said, very bad if you support a smallish regional team.

by **kindaconfuzed** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:22 pm

Bumrider

ye ye ye but you haven't followed yer analysis through that the team must have all the money spent on it first so that their success brings more mooney in to finance the stand.

Surely your analogy means the lower clubs will never get a new stand?

by **Gerrard#1** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:55 pm

ppl i think tht footy is a sport but duz have a business side it. But you cant reaLLY call it a business

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