Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:55 pm

heimdall wrote:We definitely look dodgy on set pieces, e.g yesterday and also that pr1ck Cahill so something needs to be changed. I agree that zonal seems fine in open play but on set pieces I think man to man is easier to do and more effective.

How about this for a question:
Do we practice defending zonal marking in training?
If so who plays the attackers?
If the same people play in real games how come were so :censored:

at scoring directly from corners?

by **Penguins** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:02 pm

I would blame more on having poor headers of the ball than zonal marking. We are :censored:

on set pieces offensivly too.

Why?
Poor headers of the ball.
None of our midfielders are even decent headers of the ball.
Our fullbacks are really poor. Only Carra is ok when Hyppia isn't there. Agger and Skrtel are below average. Torres is
pretty good but way to few players are good at jumping, attacking the ball in the air and heading it.

Pretty simple really.

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:04 pm

Penguins wrote:I would blame more on having poor headers of the ball than zonal marking. We are on set pieces offensivly too.

Why?
Poor headers of the ball.
None of our midfielders are even decent headers of the ball.
Our fullbacks are really poor. Only Carra is ok when Hyppia isn't there. Agger and Skrtel are below average. Torres is
pretty good but way to few players are good at jumping, attacking the ball in the air and heading it.

Pretty simple really.

Then that begs the question of why we take set pieces the way we do?
Crouch has long gone but I lost count of how many times the ball was pumped in for Torres to challenge Terry, only to lose most of the time.
Doesnt anyone on the pitch or on the bench notice this? Why isnt it stopped?

by **akumaface** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:24 pm

Since most of our players are not good at headers, i guess we don't have anyone to practice it with.

Most of our players just don't have the instinct on the aerial ability. Their judgement on where and when the ball will end up in the air is bad. Just look at the second goal in which everyone misjudge where the ball was gonna go and thus no one was even close to ivanovic when he scored. We must improve on that.

by **RedBlood** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:11 pm

bavlondon wrote:They just done some stats on SSN and we conceded the most % of goals from set pieces. So does this mean the system is wrong or the players are not playing the system properly? I suspect the latter but when I look at Skrtel last night it I am not surprised.

the most perchentage out of who?? the league or the top four if its the later its probally because of our lack of hieght in the box compared to the other top teams and not the system

by **destro** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:58 am

Interesting peice from The Independent

Once upon a time, there were four Liverpool defenders: Everybody, Somebody, Nobody and Anybody. Whenever Branislav Ivanovic needed to be marked Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.

Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. When Nobody did it, Everybody, and Pepe Reina, got angry because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought that Somebody would do it, but nobody realised that Nobody would do it.

So consequently Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done in the first place. And then, from another corner, it all happened again.

That is one of the main problems with zonal marking. It relies upon collective responsibility. On Wednesday Liverpool's defence all relied upon someone else stopping Ivanovic, nobody did and now they are facing an exit from the Champions League.

Their zonal marking system has subsequently been blamed. Certainly, to concede two goals from unchallenged headers at this level is unforgivable. But was it the system at fault, or the players?

Most defences in England mark zonally in open play outside the goal area, and in combination with man-to-man in the box. The posts, and the front of the six-yard box, are marked zonally, attackers picked up man-to-man. Under Luiz Felipe Scolari, Chelsea marked zonally at set plays but since his departure have largely reverted to man-for-man, leaving Liverpool as the most high-profile exponents of set-play zonal marking.

Rafael Benitez brought this method in when he arrived at Anfield in 2004. It was not an immediate success. Of the first seven goals they conceded five were at set plays, three from direct headers. Gradually, however, through long hours of work on the training ground, the players adapted and Liverpool's defensive record has improved to the extent that no one remarked on their marking. Then Tim Cahill took advantage of their static defending to score for Everton in successive Mersey derbies in January. Now Ivanovic has followed suit and the inquest is on.

The loss of individual responsibility is only one problem with zonal marking. Defenders, as Martin Skrtel found, are literally vulnerable to attackers getting the jump on them. For the first goal, Skrtel jumped from a standing position but Ivanovic had a run-up. They can also get caught under the ball as Steven Gerrard was for the second goal. They can find themselves outnumbered in their zones. They can also be over-matched as taller opponents attack their area. That was a problem for Chelsea, who featured Ashley Cole, Joe Cole and Deco, under Scolari. It is less of an issue for Liverpool as Benitez has deliberately filled his team with six-footers. There is also a danger of unmarked opponents shooting from the edge of the box.

All of which begs the question, why mark zonally? Benitez replies that most teams mark man-for-man, yet they still concede goals at corners and free-kicks. A surfeit of such goals was the reason Scolari attempted to switch to zonal. With zonal marking every area is covered and players are not drawn out of position. With man-marking key players can be drawn away, enabling other opponents to attack smaller players at the back post.

The bottom line is that it comes down to the quality of the delivery, and the determination of the players in the box. On Wednesday, Ivanovic wanted to head the ball more than his Liverpool counterparts. If that was the case, man-for-man marking would not have stopped him either. Tactics only provide a framework – it is up to the players to execute them successfully.

Marks out of 10: What the experts say

"Zonal is a collective responsibility whereas man-for-man marking is based on personal responsibility." Howard Wilkinson

"Attacking players gain extra height and leverage with a free running jump." David Pleat

"When you are marking man-to-man you see a lot of goals conceded." Rafael Benitez

"Because of the movement of the opposition, you're going to have men that are unmarked." Alan Hansen

"There is no ideal system, the best is the one which is best for your players." Arsène Wenger

"Man-for-man takes away grey areas and players know their responsibilities." Alvin Martin

"A combination of zonal and man-for-man works best – we only conceded one goal from a corner in 71 internationals at Scotland." Craig Brown

"The responsibility is for the group. One man wrong and you are wrong." Luiz Felipe Scolari

"We have done it for five years and probably conceded less goals than most teams at set pieces." Pepe Reina

by **fivecups** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:12 am

Is there any stats on what percentage of our goals were conceded from corners or set plays compared with other teams?

by **Owzat** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:35 am

Never have liked zonal, as far as I'm concerned each man should know what he's doing in each situation and if he doesn't know who he's going to be marking from set-pieces then the opposition can exploit that. Didn't we allocate Kuyt to man mark Cahill in the FA Cup? Would that be necessary if zonal marking works? It's too easy to exploit, too easy to cause problems. Would players be caught "ball watching" if their job was to mark a man not mark space? They've got to judge whether the ball is in their space, AND who is in their space that is a threat, and if there are more than two players in their zone wtf do they do? How do you stop a man running late from into a zone, or when they move from one zone to another? And as mentioned our headers of the ball aren't great, one or two are just about adequate but our full-backs aren't good and nor are one or two of our midfielders. Too much margin for error, and based much on judgement. All very well blaming the players, man to man means culprits are easy to identify. Didn't Chelsea briefly switch to zonal earlier in the season and dump it quickly?

It would be good if our defence didn't panic so much under pressure and concede so many needless free-kicks and corners. And you're bound to become more panicky when your ball retention is poor. And fo dne was worried about our throw-ins!

That's probably about 29th on Rafa's list of things that need sorting.

We could debate zonal until the cows come home, like with views on players I doubt people's views of it will change in a hurry and it in itself is a scapegoat if you like. No mention of it when things are hunky dory, the minute it's flaws are exposed then it is a hot potato of topic once more

Assuming defenders have all used zonal at one time or another, I'd listen to the likes of Hansen and Martin. Reina's statement is a non-statement, we've not conceded many goals but I doubt he has much idea how they were conceded and what's the point comparing us to "most teams" when the quality of defenders is likely to vary from one team to the next? Rafa's bound to defend the system (as is Pepe), I think Craig Brown's is perhaps the most informed and based on experience without bias. I tend to agree, I think you need to man mark certain "threats" from set-pieces, they aren't "threats" for nothing. And if you let your best headers mark their best headers/biggest threats then the rest can mark zones. But all players have to do their job, whether zonal or man to man, no ball watchers, players not having the strength or inclination to challenge whoever comes into their zone. The biggest danger from a set-piece is an unmarked man attacking the ball in space, since you don't know where that space is going to be or where the ball will go, surely it's best to make sure there are no unmarked men in space and therefore man to man has to be the surefire way of doing that - if players are doing their job properly of course. There will be space, but if each opponent is marked then there shouldn't be any unmarked men attacking it. The other advantage to man to man is opponents move, therefore the markers have to move making it easier to jump and attack the ball and harder for the opponents to get good, clean headers on the ball.

But it's all theory, as I say it is only an issue when it costs us. And it has, doesn't matter how many goals other teams have conceded or what system they use, it is our system and our problem that costs us goals and points/progress. As for us conceding less goals than others, in Reina's opinion less from free kicks, that could simply be down to our less attacking approach since we have also tended to score less goals than the top sides

Liverpool Goals For/Against (Premiership)

04/05 Goals for 52 (=5th most), Goals against 41 (=5th least)
05/06 Goals for 57 (4th most), Goals against 25 (2nd least)
06/07 Goals for 57 (=4th most), Goals against 27 (=2nd least)
07/08 Goals for 67 (4th most), Goals against 28 (3rd least)

Way off the best attack in the league, not even best defence in the league. A pretty tight defence, but it's not the least in the league even though Reina picks up golden gloves for fun. We've scored 55 goals this season in the league, 16 more and it equal the most in a Premiership season for us. If we want it to be our best defence then we're on 21 conceded and our record is 25. Our defence is undoubtedly solid, but is that because of zonal marking or because of our defenders and Mascherano AND Alonso sitting in front of them?

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:44 pm

Owzat wrote:Never have liked zonal, as far as I'm concerned each man should know what he's doing in each situation and if he doesn't know who he's going to be marking from set-pieces then the opposition can exploit that. Didn't we allocate Kuyt to man mark Cahill in the FA Cup? Would that be necessary if zonal marking works? It's too easy to exploit, too easy to cause problems. Would players be caught "ball watching" if their job was to mark a man not mark space? They've got to judge whether the ball is in their space, AND who is in their space that is a threat, and if there are more than two players in their zone wtf do they do? How do you stop a man running late from into a zone, or when they move from one zone to another? And as mentioned our headers of the ball aren't great, one or two are just about adequate but our full-backs aren't good and nor are one or two of our midfielders. Too much margin for error, and based much on judgement. All very well blaming the players, man to man means culprits are easy to identify. Didn't Chelsea briefly switch to zonal earlier in the season and dump it quickly?

It would be good if our defence didn't panic so much under pressure and concede so many needless free-kicks and corners. And you're bound to become more panicky when your ball retention is poor. And fo dne was worried about our throw-ins! That's probably about 29th on Rafa's list of things that need sorting.

We could debate zonal until the cows come home, like with views on players I doubt people's views of it will change in a hurry and it in itself is a scapegoat if you like. No mention of it when things are hunky dory, the minute it's flaws are exposed then it is a hot potato of topic once more

Assuming defenders have all used zonal at one time or another, I'd listen to the likes of Hansen and Martin. Reina's statement is a non-statement, we've not conceded many goals but I doubt he has much idea how they were conceded and what's the point comparing us to "most teams" when the quality of defenders is likely to vary from one team to the next? Rafa's bound to defend the system (as is Pepe), I think Craig Brown's is perhaps the most informed and based on experience without bias. I tend to agree, I think you need to man mark certain "threats" from set-pieces, they aren't "threats" for nothing. And if you let your best headers mark their best headers/biggest threats then the rest can mark zones. But all players have to do their job, whether zonal or man to man, no ball watchers, players not having the strength or inclination to challenge whoever comes into their zone. The biggest danger from a set-piece is an unmarked man attacking the ball in space, since you don't know where that space is going to be or where the ball will go, surely it's best to make sure there are no unmarked men in space and therefore man to man has to be the surefire way of doing that - if players are doing their job properly of course. There will be space, but if each opponent is marked then there shouldn't be any unmarked men attacking it. The other advantage to man to man is opponents move, therefore the markers have to move making it easier to jump and attack the ball and harder for the opponents to get good, clean headers on the ball.

But it's all theory, as I say it is only an issue when it costs us. And it has, doesn't matter how many goals other teams have conceded or what system they use, it is our system and our problem that costs us goals and points/progress. As for us conceding less goals than others, in Reina's opinion less from free kicks, that could simply be down to our less attacking approach since we have also tended to score less goals than the top sides

Liverpool Goals For/Against (Premiership)

04/05 Goals for 52 (=5th most), Goals against 41 (=5th least)
05/06 Goals for 57 (4th most), Goals against 25 (2nd least)
06/07 Goals for 57 (=4th most), Goals against 27 (=2nd least)
07/08 Goals for 67 (4th most), Goals against 28 (3rd least)

Way off the best attack in the league, not even best defence in the league. A pretty tight defence, but it's not the least in the league even though Reina picks up golden gloves for fun. We've scored 55 goals this season in the league, 16 more and it equal the most in a Premiership season for us. If we want it to be our best defence then we're on 21 conceded and our record is 25. Our defence is undoubtedly solid, but is that because of zonal marking or because of our defenders and Mascherano AND Alonso sitting in front of them?

First of all who is "fo dne"?

Secondly you are absolutely right. If one fails with marking their "zone" they all fail. The thing I noticed on second viewing of the first goal is the way they all watched the ball. Except alonso, who tried to stop ivanic rather half-heartedly and then seemed to "pass" him on to skrtl who was too busy looking at the ball. This gave him a run and momentum and an advantage. A free header in fact. This has happened against other teams, cahill did it twice. I definitely think that some players prefer man marking and are not comfortable with zonal. As you say, if we dont concede from set plays it works, if we do, its shi.te.

by **PabloAimar** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:56 pm

we should try skid marking

by **Reg** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:24 am

PabloAimar wrote:we should try skid marking

You better sleep or you'll be tired at school tomorrow.

by **Dundalk** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:38 pm

Another goal conceded from a set piece, what is going on?

by **Effes** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:06 pm

Well how do we assess their goal today?
Firstly - Insua was weak as hell at the back post.

Secondly - and most worryingly - the ball bounced back down into the six yard box
and there are 3 Bolton players waiting to knock it in - totally unmarked.

I think I'll have to watch the replay again to see exacty who to blame or what to blame.

First Goal for Bolton by Davies 32
Click Here for Video

Shit - they've just scored another

by **tonyeh** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:05 pm

Rafael Benitez is to blame Effes. It's on his insistance that this ineffectual zonal marking bollox is being used, regardless of the fact that it is causing goal leaks.

It's obvious to everyone that the system is rubbish, or at least rubbish for Liverpool.

Bolton's goal today was unbelievable and a prime example of why Liverpool should employ man marking for corners.

As long as Benitez forces the team to continue to use zonal marking, then they will ALWAYS leak goals.

by **Greavesie** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:09 pm

its never really been THAT much of an issue in the past. I think we went longer than anyone else in the league without onceding from a set piece. Are we just rusty early in the season? Whatever its very worrying that we've only kept one clean sheet in 4

and conceded 7 in 4 n all

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