Liverpool FC Forum

by **loopyliverpool** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:53 am

It does my head in that everyone keeps going on about how much Rafa has had to spend. It is a redundant subject. If that is how people are going to gauge a manager and the subsequent success or failure of the club then we will never win another trophy, plain and simple as Man U, Chelsea and now City will always be spending more than us.

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:55 am

Sabre wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Sabre wrote:Prophet mode:

This thread will last forever, it won't change the opinion of the participants in the slightest.

Which is nice as long as this long discussions don't go to other threads such as the centre backs one.

Not sure it will "last forever", the second Rafa leaves Anfield it will disappear and only be resurrected when some sad individual digs it up (if at all)

Are you saying that the ones talking about another manager when the team are struggling will be sad individuals?

Does that make you a sad individual now, then?

Of course people will change opinions depending on results. Of course majorities can change.

But don't fool yourself, it won't be your convincing power nor numbers, but results.

Did you get what I said? I'm talking about people who dig MONTHS back into archive threads, not a page or two back. But you had to get a dig in didn't you, your f in spade must work overtime these days

You're right, it won't be me convincing people. If people could think logically then it would be way past where it is now, sad truth is people believe what they want to believe and live in denial until it's obvious even to the most stubborn or stupid that it's time for change

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:57 am

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:58 am

First of all hats off to the lads and Rafa for last night for one of the best displays I have sen at Anfield for a long, long time.
It was so good to see unrestricted attacking football which we all know we are capable of but very seldom see.
The downside is obviously the question 'why we dont see this more often?'
It surely reinforces the belief of those of us who feel that the CL is far more important, far more exciting and far easier to win the the EPL. How I wish that Rafa would, or even could put together a squad which is capable of a full season's worth of football the likes of what we witnessed last night.
Instead we have the same players on the same pitch against the likes of everton getting different results.
So frustrating
Well done though
Tremendous

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:59 am

loopyliverpool wrote:It does my head in that everyone keeps going on about how much Rafa has had to spend. It is a redundant subject. If that is how people are going to gauge a manager and the subsequent success or failure of the club then we will never win another trophy, plain and simple as Man U, Chelsea and now City will always be spending more than us.

Well we guage the team on how it performs and the players that are doing the performing, you know, the ones who get praised or criticised every game.

Now those players were, wait for it, bought by the manager. Comparing to what other managers has to spend is pointless, Rafa has what money he has to spend and what others have won't change that. But if he's going to buy poor players then his spending will be criticised.

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:04 am

Sir Roger wrote:First of all hats off to the lads and Rafa for last night for one of the best displays I have sen at Anfield for a long, long time.
It was so good to see unrestricted attacking football which we all know we are capable of but very seldom see.
The downside is obviously the question 'why we dont see this more often?'
It surely reinforces the belief of those of us who feel that the CL is far more important, far more exciting and far easier to win the the EPL. How I wish that Rafa would, or even could put together a squad which is capable of a full season's worth of football the likes of what we witnessed last night.
Instead we have the same players on the same pitch against the likes of everton getting different results.
So frustrating
Well done though
Tremendous

First off, my respects to you Sir Roger, you know giving some credit to the team when they do well. That tells something good about you.

Second, I share your wish to see this more often.

Third, I disagree about priorities. We all know Torres and Gerrard are world class players. Yesterday we enjoyed them together. In the last month and a half, we haven't.

Is that about priorities Sir Roger? No. It's about injuries. Don't you think?

My point is that until recently we've been doing very well in the league, and in the last month and a half we haven't. If only we'd have those key players playing together and terryfying the oppositions...

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:11 am

Sabre wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:First of all hats off to the lads and Rafa for last night for one of the best displays I have sen at Anfield for a long, long time.
It was so good to see unrestricted attacking football which we all know we are capable of but very seldom see.
The downside is obviously the question 'why we dont see this more often?'
It surely reinforces the belief of those of us who feel that the CL is far more important, far more exciting and far easier to win the the EPL. How I wish that Rafa would, or even could put together a squad which is capable of a full season's worth of football the likes of what we witnessed last night.
Instead we have the same players on the same pitch against the likes of everton getting different results.
So frustrating
Well done though
Tremendous

First off, my respects to you Sir Roger, you know giving some credit to the team when they do well. That tells something good about you.

Second, I share your wish to see this more often.

Third, I disagree about priorities. We all know Torres and Gerrard are world class players. Yesterday we enjoyed them together. In the last month and a half, we haven't.

Is that about priorities Sir Roger? No. It's about injuries. Don't you think?

Thanks for the compliment
Of course injuries and suspensions play a massive part in how the season pans out.
But even the most loyal and rose- tinted- glasses -wearing person couldnt disagree that last night performance was inspired?
We absolutely murdered Real Madrid. The Real Madrid! Not stoke or fulham but the most honoured club in Europe!
Can you argue that the CL is not a higher priority and a more attractive proposition to Rafa and some (most) of the players involved in that game?
Can you really?

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:14 am

Yes I can and several members have given several valid explanations for that independent to the manager:

* Madrid can't park a bus at Anfield because they'd be murdered in Spain. If they're 2-0 down, they can't say "oh, let's avoid a spanking". They have to attack. And our players had no mercy.

* All the pundits and probably Real Madrid aswell expected us to wait for them. We pressed aggresively and they weren't even prepared for that.

You know what, I think that the manager should motivate more the players for the league. That is, you like playing the CL? well then, prove your worth in the league. If you don't play well in Fratton Park, you won't play Real Madrid, I'd tell Dossenna for instance.

I guess the manager has some work motivating them, but I'm pretty sure that he wants the league as badly as anything else.

by **Flight** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:15 am

Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:
Owzat wrote:
GYBS wrote:He blew a lot of money on players like veron,kleberson,Djemba Djemba,Taibi,Forlan .

And how long ago was that? We can't keep saying fergie is as bad as Rafa when fergie doesn't do it any more and Rafa does.

And how long has taggert been in the job ? he bought those players in a 3 -4 year period .

So we give Rafa 23 years? You say fergie has made more mistakes and highlight how he's done it over a long period of time - hardly a like for like comparison, let alone a worthwhile time period to compare them in. Of course he's going to have made more mistakes, bound to having made more purchases. But fergie has the money to make mistakes, Rafa doesn't and yet he makes too many. I left out Keane, just thinking of the £40m spent in the summer only £8m plus maybe N'Gog looks worth it.

There's no point dragging up ancient history, fergie spends more and is right more often. He has made mistakes, I've not said he hasn't. But of those buys only Veron cost a lot. Morientes cost more than Kleberson. Veron was a long time ago, an expensive mistake. Comparitively speaking was it any bigger a mistake than Keane? Even (some) manc fans will admit Veron had some good games, they watched more of their side than I'd ever want to so go get their view on Veron. And they can afford to waste £28.1m, they got £15m for him so he couldn't have been that big a disaster.

Forlan cost £7.5m, spent most of his time coming off the bench and left in 2004 as Rafa arrived. Does that cancel out Bellamy or Morientes as a flop if you insist on counting it? He survived two seasons which is more than most Liverpool strikers do.

whoa hold on there - where did i say Taggert has made more mistakes than Rafa ? didnt suggest anything of the sort , lets not be putting words into my mouth. Was just pointing out that Taggert has made some shocking signings in the past and he hasnt got everything right .When he has up to and prob more than 30 mil to spend on each player he will get it right most of the time .

You're going back in time, that you have to go that far back means you're giving fergie at least twice as many years in which to make mistakes so he's bound to make more mistakes in a longer time period. If he's made as many or fewer mistakes than Rafa in a longer period then where's your case? Are you saying Rafa makes more mistakes, or just getting indignant like a big girl's blouse

Rafa has had £20m+ to spend twice and made one mistake, how many times has fergie made a mistake paying £20m+ ? Once perchance. You can't have it both ways, noone is denying fergie has been able to buy more £20m+ players, but that doesn't mean Rafa can waste money and not be held accountable. £20.3m on Keane, £7m on Dossena, wanted to pay £18m for Barry, £11.5m on Babel, £6m on Bellamy etc etc. Rafa may spend less, he may not quite have a £28.1m mistake on his hands, but he's already sold 1/3 of the players he's bought and they lasted an average of just under two seasons. That's hardly getting it right.

As for the topic in hand, how is going from 5th to 3rd to 3rd to 4th progress? Or points totals going from 58 to 82 to 68 to 76? More like one step forward, one step back or to quote Maxine Nightingale "Right Back To Where We Started From"

You are aware Rafa tried to stop the Keane signing happening, up to and including the day it happened ? This was revealed before we sold him and again after we sold him.

Also, Rafa in press conferences :

1 : Was Keane your signing ?

Rafa : Keane is a good player

2 : You signed Keane for £20million

Rafa : The club signed Keane for £20million. If a club is going to spend £20million it should be the manager who chooses to either buy the one £20million player or 4 £5million players.

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:30 am

Sabre wrote:Yes I can and several members have given several valid explanations for that independent to the manager:

* Madrid can't park a bus at Anfield because they'd be murdered in Spain. If they're 2-0 down, they can't say "oh, let's avoid a spanking". They have to attack. And our players had no mercy.

* All the pundits and probably Real Madrid aswell expected us to wait for them. We pressed aggresively and they weren't even prepared for that.

You know what, I think that the manager should motivate more the players for the league. That is, you like playing the CL? well then, prove your worth in the league. If you don't play well in Fratton Park, you won't play Real Madrid, I'd tell Dossenna for instance.

I guess the manager has some work motivating them, but I'm pretty sure that he wants the league as badly as anything else.

Mmmm
So
We dont have the capability to break teams down if they choose to park the bus?
We pressed aggressively from the beginning and showed no mercy, instead of what we usually do?
I dont think youre strengthening the argument that Rafa is capable of putting together a concerted season- long campaign to win the league where lesser teams MUST be broken down and attacked aggressively from the start. Do you?

And frankly your last part about playing well in fratton park or not getting to play in the CL is sad and somewhat scary.
Youre talking about grown men, international and professional football players. Not toddlers who you promise a new toy to if they poo poo on the toilet!

:no

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:36 am

And frankly your last part about playing well in fratton park or not getting to play in the CL is sad and somewhat scary.
Youre talking about grown men, international and professional football players. Not toddlers who you promise a new toy to if they poo poo on the toilet!

It's a bit scary yes, but I think that if all the players had the heart Carraguer and Gerrard show in some games, then we'd have less blips.

XXI century players, the i-pod generation have a lot to learn about past players. Not only in Liverpool eh? Everywhere.

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:44 am

Sabre wrote:
And frankly your last part about playing well in fratton park or not getting to play in the CL is sad and somewhat scary.
Youre talking about grown men, international and professional football players. Not toddlers who you promise a new toy to if they poo poo on the toilet!

It's a bit scary yes, but I think that if all the players had the heart Carraguer and Gerrard show in some games, then we'd have less blips.

XXI century players, the i-pod generation have a lot to learn about past players. Not only in Liverpool eh? Everywhere.

And yet some managers seem to have sussed how to do it?
Do you think Rafa has the capability to do what these other managers do?
If so, how?
If not, why not?

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:02 pm

The problem is that the strongest league right now is the English, and, in order to do the "simple" task of being regularly the best team of England, you have to beat the likes of Manchester United.

This archrival, has been doing things well for a long time, and getting past them isn't an easy task. Man U's success is a consequence of things well done, and getting to that level is not exactly easy.

It's difficult, because each time you get Anfield crowded you have a 1.5M income, and they have 3 everytime they get Old Trafford crowded. It's difficult, because just as you have the pressure off in Europe because you've shown already what you had to show, the Mancs have not the pressure in the league.

Now, you can dismiss all this as "excuses", I won't blame anyone who wants always to improve. But mate, before Rafa, we had non rotating managers, we had this excellent crowd, we had Gerrard too, we had a lot of things, but we were without winning the title in 15 years.

My point is simple, I'm not a fortune teller and I don't know if Rafa will bring it to us. But I know he's working well, and building up an important team with less resources than the Man U. I see Liverpool getting closer, this year we've been dreaming of the league longer.

If I don't see this progress continuing, then I'll become an anti Rafa. I would like this progress being faster, I would like to have 300M to spend in order not to need 5 year plans, but we don't have that money available. In my view ambition is good, but greed and the false impression that this slow progress is easy to achieve, could bring Liverpool to darker times.

I don't know if another manager will do it better, but I think it's not easy doing it better.

I see a lot of fans thinking that "with another manager" that draw would have been a victory. But I don't see fans wondering if that other manager would have convinced Torres to come to Anfield when Manchester were offering MORE money.

It's difficult mate, at least for me, all this is not as obvious as many think around here.

by **stmichael** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:36 pm

I hope he looks at last night and how setting the tone early meant we got control of the game for ninety minutes in a way that was always going to see us win.

I can understand his caution sometimes. If we go out like that on Saturday we'll either win 3-0 or lose 3-0. The key is to take the chances - and I've heard him say that so often and people mock him for it, but it's true.

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:41 pm

I just saw an interview with rafa on the BBC website where once again he is referring to us "being ranked number one in Europe". It's lovely, peachy and all that but it wouldn't be something that out of choice I'd have our manager crowing about if I'm honest. It's not to say it isn't a good achievement because it is, but such rankings are very fickle in their make up, and a defeat in the next round wouold probably see us drop to 8th or something next season knowing UEFA.

It's a bit like International football. Engalnd play Israel or somebody, and you find out before the game that they are ranked higher based on the fact they beat Morocco in some middle eastern shootout. For me Rafa sounds a little Houllieresque when he refers as often as he does to such "rankings" and talks of four trophies won, including the Charity Shield and that European super Cup thing.

We are a top side in Europe, there's absolutely no doubt about it. Rely on the record though, not some ranking system which could fluctuate wildly from game to game. You can hardly be seriously considered the best team in Europe (or "number one") if you're not the best team in your own country.

In my view, and no doubt this will be a red rag to the bullsh!tters, when you've just beaten real Madrid 5-0 on aggregate you don't need to refer to poxy rankings. The recoprd speaks for itself.

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