Liverpool FC Forum

by **The Red Baron** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:38 pm

peewee wrote:has anyone actually said they hate rafa? name names

Yeah me every saturday,only Idont call him Rafa

by **dawson99** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:42 pm

Well PeeWee, your quote

"Hold that door Parry, I think someone is following you out"

Is that meant for G&H or Rafa? Coz if it's Rafa we know where you stand - liking him wise

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:00 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
peewee wrote:yeah how dare you discuss the manager in a detrimental way, we are 10 points clear at the top dont you know

was just looking around forums at cards and its seems more cards u got more anti rafa you are i need few more it seems lmao !!!!

Last time I looked I didn't have any...............

Rafa revels in tight, tactical matches. Going all-out to win every game is either not his style or beyond his capability. That's why our team is more workmanlike than full of flair. We can afford to draw games in Europe and still progress, even lose but win on aggregate.

Rafa In Europe

04/05 P15 W8 D4 L3 F20 A10 (Won 53.33%)
05/06 P14 W8 D3 L3 F20 A7 (Won 57.14%)
06/07 P15 W9 D2 L4 F22 A12 (Won 60.00%)
07/08 P14 W8 D3 L3 F34 A12 (Won 57.14%)
08/09 P9 W6 D3 0 F13 A5 (Won 66.67%)

Ironic given our talk of Rafa and his future, that he has won a higher percentage of games in Europe than in the Premiership this season! The above is enough to reach two finals, a semi and the Last 16 (twice if you count this season) It just doesn't require winning every game.

We all know the mancs are ahead of us in their league form and winning, here's how Rafa compares to fergie in the Champions League

04/05-08/09

Liverpool : P67 W39 D15 L13 F109 A46 (Won 58.21%)
Man Utd : P50 W27 D14 L9 F83 A35 (Won 54.00%)

Of course we've played a fair few more qualifiers than the mancs, including the first two rounds in 05/06, so bound to have a few more wins than the mancs through easier games. It's more tactical, even for fergie with one final to Rafa's two in that period.

One defeat in the Champions League can put a side out, fergie knows in the Premiership that a defeat isn't the end of the world, but not winning enough would be the end of a title bid. He is more adaptable to the two requirements but, like Rugby League in the challenge of the codes, fergie wins his own code (the Premiership) by a wide margin while losing on Rafa's code (the Champions League) by a narrow margin. Or put another way Rafa hasn't yet, and may never, adjusted to the demands of the Premiership title.

Perhaps the one thing Rafa could do that might persuade me and other doubters that he can win the league, is to win 26 games this season. But that would mean winning every single remaining league game, including a win at old trafford. IF he does that then maybe he deserves one more season, who knows it might even pull of an unlikely title turnaround and win - that is the kind of feat that can put pressure on teams, something we've not done consistently in any of Rafa's seasons so far.

by **GYBS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:11 pm

GH teams attacking teams

In what sense ?? i didnt see much evidence of that myself . And his promising squad of players failed to even qualify for the CL .
And the peewee the fact someone is suggesting that rafa had nothing to do with the CL win just shows that blind dislike for the man is clouding peoples judgements for him and what he did . If certain people are only going to give credit to the players when they win that means they are the ones that should get the critisim when we loose- people cant have it both ways im afraid.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:26 pm

Houllier Benitez
Goals for Goals for

00/01 - 71 04/05 - 52
01/02 - 67 05/06 - 57
02/03 - 61 06/07 - 57
03/04 - 55 07/08 - 67

total 254 233

by **tubby** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:27 pm

Interesting stats Saint. Do we have GH's record in Europe so we can compare to Ozwats above? I think it has taken Rafa a while to get to a decent standing in the league but from day 1 we have always been one of the best teams in Europe.

by **GYBS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:32 pm

well the 71 goals in 00/01 can go down to the amouont of games they played that year . and after that whatever way he played didnt really proof to be that successfull bar a CC .

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:35 pm

bavlondon wrote:Interesting stats Saint. Do we have GH's record in Europe so we can compare to Ozwats above? I think it has taken Rafa a while to get to a decent standing in the league but from day 1 we have always been one of the best teams in Europe.

It's difficult to compare because Rafa has only ever had CL football, and Houllier not only played in the UEFA Cup but also dropped into it when we couldn't beat Basel.

EDIT : and as S@int points out, more teams qualify now

But here's is Houllier's CL record

02/03 P6 W2 D2 L2 F12 A8 (Won 33.33%)
01/02 P16 W7 D7 L2 F23 A12 (Won 43.75%)

01/02 had two group stages

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:40 pm

bavlondon wrote:Interesting stats Saint. Do we have GH's record in Europe so we can compare to Ozwats above? I think it has taken Rafa a while to get to a decent standing in the league but from day 1 we have always been one of the best teams in Europe.

The problem with doing a European stats is they changed the number that qualify for the CL from 2 to 3 and then to 4 and god knows when. Maybe Owzat could do it mate...... I know I can't. I tried doing the cups and how far we reached in each for the progress thread, but gave that up too.

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:43 pm

s@int wrote:Houllier Benitez
Goals for Goals for

00/01 - 71 04/05 - 52
01/02 - 67 05/06 - 57
02/03 - 61 06/07 - 57
03/04 - 55 07/08 - 67

total 254 233

That is only in the Premiership, not that it matters other than to correct GYBS's assumption it was all competitions.

Houllier conceded 147 goals to Rafa's 121 during the periods S@int cites, their GDs were Houllier 107-112 Rafa. Rafa won five more games than Houllier, lost only one less than him though. Perhaps key is Gerrard's use, he didn't become a scoring phenomenon until after Houllier.

Perhaps a key to why comparing the two managers this way is not too meaningul is that Houllier finished 2nd in 01/02 with 80 points, Rafa finished 3rd in 05/06 with 82 points.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:43 pm

and next season its all change again :-

So, what does Manchester United’s Carling Cup win mean for the clubs chasing European football?

Good news. Sixth place in the Barclays Premier League now comes with the bonus of a spot in next season’s rebranded UEFA Cup — the Europa League.
Sounds fancy. Anything special about the new competition?

Not unless your definition of ‘special’ is pointless games in a competition nobody — including UEFA — really cares about clogging up the fixture list.

Putting the cat among the pigeons: United's victory in the Carling Cup has created a wealth of permutations for clubs on the cusp of European qualification

More importantly — does England still have four Champions League places and three Europa League places?

Yes. For the first time, the top three teams in England will qualify automatically for the Champions League group stage. The fourth-placed team will have to win a two-legged play-off to reach the lucrative group phase.

Keep your head: O'Neill's Villa are vying for the top four
What about the Europa League?

This is where things get a little more complicated. The fifth-placed team qualifies for the Europa League play-off round. As a result of United’s Wembley win, a sixth-place Premier League finish will also ensure a spot in the play-off round.
What about the third Europa League spot?

Sit yourself down in a dark room with a stiff drink. Ready? Read on. The third Europa League spot is designated for the FA Cup winners. If the FA Cup winners finish outside the top six, they will go into the Europa League play-off round and the team who finish sixth in the Premier League will go into the third qualifying round — the round before the play-off round.

Gunner regret it: Van Persie is heading for Europa League with Arsenal
With Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Everton still in the FA Cup, that’s pretty unlikely isn’t it?

Yes, but stranger things have happened — remember last year?
OK, let’s say one of those clubs already occupying a European place wins the FA Cup. Do the FA Cup runners-up then win a place in Europe?

No. For the first time in such circumstances FA Cup finalists will not qualify for Europe. In the event that the FA Cup winners have already qualified for Europe, final positions in the Premier League will decide who gets the third Europa League place.

So seventh place in the Premier League could be good enough?

Yes, but only if the FA Cup winners finish in the top six. If the FA Cup winners finish in the top six, the sixth-placed team will qualify for the play-off round and the seventh- placed team will play in the third qualifying round.

Second coming: it's looking up for Lampard and Chelsea
What if an English club wins the Champions League, but finishes outside the top four?

We’re looking at you, Liverpool and Arsenal. They qualify for next season’s Champions League as holders and the fourth-placed team drop down into the Europa League.
And what if Man City win the UEFA Cup?

Apart from everyone rushing outside to check pigs aren’t flying at a low altitude, City would qualify for next season’s Europa League along with three other English clubs.

Didn’t Manchester City qualify for this season’s competition via UEFA’s Fair Play league?

They did — although they only finished sixth in the Fair Play league, below five English clubs that had already qualified for Europe.

Sticky for Toffees: Saha's Everton are in the mix-up
So how does the Fair Play league work and how do UEFA decide which countries are awarded one of the three places?

If you really want to know go to www.uefa.com!
And what about the InterToto Cup?

UEFA have finally done the decent thing and killed off this silly excuse for a European trophy.

OK, if seventh is good enough for the Europa League, which clubs could benefit?

Just five points separate six clubs, so West Ham United, Wigan Athletic, Fulham, Bolton Wanderers, Manchester City and Sunderland will all feel they have a chance if they can put a good run together.

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:51 pm

jedwards wrote:
Benitez has been talking so much about his beloved squad ( many average players), on how good it is, that to enable him to overcome the challenge from top clubs, to win the league! A squad that it is so strong in depth and competitive in all departments, that it had cost hundreds of Million pounds, large in number, big wage bills, BUT it hardly used up to its full capacity, and above all it does not depends on any particular player to carry it forward!! as always Benitez claims!, furthermore, he was not worried at all for the sell of Keane, because he has top replacements strikers to do a better job than Keane!!.

Well now we are hearing the main reason for losing top spot, it simply down to absence of Torres!!!!!!!!.

Any decent above average manager would have made arrangement for pre-season plans to have enough decent strikers to cover his NO.1 striker in case of injuries. Not in case of the clever Benitez. In summer, he went and sold Crouch, and in Mid-season he went and sold Crouch replacement in Keane. Now the whole team and the club are paying for his stupid mistakes and bad style of management, which it has deprived the club from any significant achievements for the passed three seasons, and not even this season!.

Just to remind people
Everton have played without strikers for months and have drawn with us twice and knocked us out of the fa cup.
Oh and theyre 6th in the league, 2 points behind Arsenal

by **GYBS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:56 pm

well it is safe to say this is going to the lines of once agian another chance for people to come in and have another go at rafa just like all the other threads .

by **Owzat** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:03 pm

s@int wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Interesting stats Saint. Do we have GH's record in Europe so we can compare to Ozwats above? I think it has taken Rafa a while to get to a decent standing in the league but from day 1 we have always been one of the best teams in Europe.

The problem with doing a European stats is they changed the number that qualify for the CL from 2 to 3 and then to 4 and god knows when. Maybe Owzat could do it mate...... I know I can't. I tried doing the cups and how far we reached in each for the progress thread, but gave that up too.

I could find the results for cup games, only have them for Rafa and Champions League. But maybe the below may help you in your "holy grail"

Champions League

01/02 Quarter-Finals
02/03 Group Stage
04/05 Winners
05/06 Last 16
06/07 Runners-Up
07/08 Semi-Finals

Cup Winners Cup

92/93 Last 16
96/97 Semi-Finals

UEFA Cup

95/96 Last 32
97/98 Last 32
98/99 Last 16
00/01 Winners
02/03 Quarter-Finals
03/04 Last 16

DOMESTIC

FA Cup

92/93 R3
93/94 R3
94/95 Quarter-Finals
95/96 Runners-Up
96/97 R4
97/98 R3
98/99 R4
99/00 R4
00/01 Winners
01/02 R4
02/03 R4
03/04 R5
04/05 R3
05/06 Winners
06/07 R3
07/08 R5
08/09 R4

League Cup

92/93 R4
93/94 R4
94/95 Winners
95/96 R4
96/97 Quarter-Finals
97/98 Semi-Finals
98/99 R4
99/00 R3
00/01 Winners
01/02 R3
02/03 Winners
03/04 R4
04/05 Runners-Up
05/06 R3
06/07 Quarter-Finals
07/08 Quarter-Finals
08/09 R4

Normally teams in Europe enter the League at Round 3, but it's worrying that we've exited the FA Cup at the first hurdle FIVE times during the Premiership. Our FA Cup record of recent times is very disappointing indeed, we've won it twice and reached the final on another occaision, but only one other time have we got to or got beyond the QFs.

The Quarter-Finals in the League Cup isn't much to make a fuss about reaching, there's only two rounds before that. A two-legged semi makes it a 'win or go out early' kind of competition. The mancs won it, we went out relatively early.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:11 pm

It certainly shows we are not really the cup team that a lot of people say we are (apart from Europe).

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