Liverpool FC Forum

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:53 am

Now I ask this in response to the pressure on this season on the whole. Liverpool as a club, are one of the most respected and successful clubs in the world. And the one thing that has made us so are our league achievements. Through Bill Shankly to Bob Paisley to Joe Fagan to Kenny Dalglish, all these managers knew what mattered the most was the league.

Looking at today, in this I include the joint managership of Roy Evans and Gerard Houllier,also themselves individually, then Graeme Souness and of course Rafa Benitez. Out of the latter managers the one that gave us the most hope, in my humble opinion of course, is Rafa. The fact that he won us the champions league in his first season showed us a sparkling light of hope in that, ok, he doesnt have the best players at his disposal, but he can indeed get the best out of them.

I was really looking forward with a lot of hope to the future, finally we have a manager who in himself is humble (compared to the newly appointed arrogance of Mourinho at chelsea), loves the club and the city, and speaks highly of the supporters.
Brilliant. In reference to our anthem "You'll Never Walk Alone", Rafa was indeed our "Golden Sky".

And this is what hits me the most, he isnt. And this is what is making me ask this question of "Is Rafa being fair?"

In europe, no one can argue against him. He gets it spot on. In europe, he picks his best lineup that he can and he gets the result. This mixed with the tactics he portrays to the players results in success. Can he do the same in the premier league? of course he can. But he just refuses to.

This season was an absolute must to go all out for the league, United are going to equal our record. We all know this and so we show support where we can to ensure that this happens but yet Rafa doesnt. He is supposed to feel the same as us supporters, he is supposed to have done his homework on shankly and co which is why he is supposed to share the passion we have. And yet, he constantly messes with the team during our league run. Okay, this season League Cup? pointless, FA Cup, nice to be involved but league comes first. And this is where it narrows down for Rafa. League or Champions League?

This for Rafa seems to edge towards Champions league, I say this as he seems to go all out for the win in the champions league. No players play out of position and if he can play his best team, he will.

Is that fair? All supporters are feeling the pressure of Uniteds success equalling our own with regards to the league, every one supporter will say "We must maintain our excellent record" or indeed having a good go at maintaining it. The way this season started off, it was written, it was ours for the taking. United, Chelsea and Arsenal all got off to stinkers and we were off to a cracking start. Then the cup games got involved. Okay you can also argue internationals and the like took our players but were not the only club in the league who have to give up players for internationals.

Is it fair that this season, for all the chance we had to finally gain our first Premier League trophy ever, to tinker with the team so much that we have lost our balance?

Is it fair that Rafa, subject us supporters to justifying his decisions? In that I mean having to try to justify our support by even pretending to our friends who support other teams that we know his reasoning by the decisions he makes.

Is it fair to place our club in such a commanding position in the league only to, in Bigmicks words "Style" the team in such a negative way, that only the supporters can answer the constant questions asked?

Is it fair for Rafa to constantly torment us with his lineups?

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:19 am

Kharhaz wrote:The fact that he won us the champions league in his first season showed us a sparkling light of hope in that, ok, he doesnt have the best players at his disposal, but he can indeed get the best out of them.

With a team that he didn't buy one player for , so did he really win it or was it the good work Hollier did ?

I like to think it was just the magic of the fans and a few great player performances 2nd half lets not forgot that leap gerrard made for first goal if it wasn't for gerrard we never would have come back in that game.

I meen any one would have put gerrard in the team that day , Rafa master of tactics ? Or just lucky to fall on a team with a good ballance.

Remember more players he has bought and sold worse our team has become.

by **GYBS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:34 am

Pops head round door - sees its still full of bullsh it posts and even more cr ap slagging off rafa - walks right back out again .

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:36 am

yeah how dare you discuss the manager in a detrimental way, we are 10 points clear at the top dont you know

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:47 am

peewee wrote:yeah how dare you discuss the manager in a detrimental way, we are 10 points clear at the top dont you know

was just looking around forums at cards and its seems more cards u got more anti rafa you are i need few more it seems lmao !!!!

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:57 am

peewee wrote:yeah how dare you discuss the manager in a detrimental way, we are 10 points clear at the top dont you know

Ano its shocking in it what a twa.t Rafa is for actualy putting us in with a shout, only then to say jib this premiership lark ,it doesnt mean nothing What a stupid manager he is for getting us again another step closer to 6 European cups, He must be off his head for bringing us Torres , an putting faith back in my heart anyway. I mean its dead easy to win the league like , Any manager can win it didnt you know,

Am i bein to sarky Pee :laugh:

by **GYBS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:00 pm

Rafa having nothing to do with the CL of 05 ?!?!? winning it with only GH players ? what the hell were Alonso and Garcia then who were two of our most important players throughout the whole campaign ?? who bought them again ?? FACTS need to be checked before statements are made

by **bigmick** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:04 pm

GYBS wrote:Rafa having nothing to do with the CL of 05 ?!?!? winning it with only GH players ? what the hell were Alonso and Garcia then who were two of our most important players throughout the whole campaign ?? who bought them again ?? FACTS need to be checked before statements are made

They do. I had one bloke telling me it took Fergie 10 years to win the prem the other week.

although most of the Champions League team was left for Rafa, we wouldn't have won it IMHO without Garcia and Alonso. In fact I'm certain of it, and you could even add carrager at centre half. Credit where it's due, we might have had every single slice of luck going but it was still an incredible achievement.

Rafa's finest hour without question.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:08 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Am i bein to sarky Pee

ะ้ำพำรหืน

oops, there is no such thing as 'too sarky' nanny

by **GYBS** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:09 pm

Shame some people are too blind in their hatred of Rafa that they fail to see things .

by **bigmick** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:11 pm

GYBS wrote:Shame some people are too blind in their hatred of Rafa that they fail to see things .

It's a bit cryptic mate, what are we so blind that we're missing?

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:11 pm

has anyone actually said they hate rafa? name names

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:02 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:The fact that he won us the champions league in his first season showed us a sparkling light of hope in that, ok, he doesnt have the best players at his disposal, but he can indeed get the best out of them.

With a team that he didn't buy one player for , so did he really win it or was it the good work Hollier did ?

I like to think it was just the magic of the fans and a few great player performances 2nd half lets not forgot that leap gerrard made for first goal if it wasn't for gerrard we never would have come back in that game.

I meen any one would have put gerrard in the team that day , Rafa master of tactics ? Or just lucky to fall on a team with a good ballance.

Remember more players he has bought and sold worse our team has become.

Highly unjust assessment, mate (speaking of not being fair). Yes, key players carried us across the finish line in Istanbul and we got a huge slice of luck that night but Rafa led us to that final with a collection of players who were never, ever going to get there of their own accord. Rafa was just lucky to take charge of a team with balance, you say? Bollox. If it was all down to Houllier's players, why didn't Houllier win, or go close to winning, the Champions League? Rafa instilled balance and purpose in that side and they went out and won the greatest cup competition in world football. For that, the man deserves immense credit, regardless of what's happened since. I appreciate that some people are now fed up with Rafa and want shut of him but to denigrate and dismiss the great things he's accomplished is just petty. It is possible to effectively make the case that he needs to go despite what he's achieved in the Champions League but, IMO, it's impossible to maintain any credibility whatsoever when suggesting that Rafa had no hand in winning us the Champions League in 05. :no

by **jedwards** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:07 pm

Benitez has been talking so much about his beloved squad ( many average players), on how good it is, that to enable him to overcome the challenge from top clubs, to win the league! A squad that it is so strong in depth and competitive in all departments, that it had cost hundreds of Million pounds, large in number, big wage bills, BUT it hardly used up to its full capacity, and above all it does not depends on any particular player to carry it forward!! as always Benitez claims!, furthermore, he was not worried at all for the sell of Keane, because he has top replacements strikers to do a better job than Keane!!.

Well now we are hearing the main reason for losing top spot, it simply down to absence of Torres!!!!!!!!.

Any decent above average manager would have made arrangement for pre-season plans to have enough decent strikers to cover his NO.1 striker in case of injuries. Not in case of the clever Benitez. In summer, he went and sold Crouch, and in Mid-season he went and sold Crouch replacement in Keane. Now the whole team and the club are paying for his stupid mistakes and bad style of management, which it has deprived the club from any significant achievements for the passed three seasons, and not even this season!.

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:21 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:The fact that he won us the champions league in his first season showed us a sparkling light of hope in that, ok, he doesnt have the best players at his disposal, but he can indeed get the best out of them.

With a team that he didn't buy one player for , so did he really win it or was it the good work Hollier did ?

I like to think it was just the magic of the fans and a few great player performances 2nd half lets not forgot that leap gerrard made for first goal if it wasn't for gerrard we never would have come back in that game.

I meen any one would have put gerrard in the team that day , Rafa master of tactics ? Or just lucky to fall on a team with a good ballance.

Remember more players he has bought and sold worse our team has become.

Highly unjust assessment, mate (speaking of not being fair). Yes, key players carried us across the finish line in Istanbul and we got a huge slice of luck that night but Rafa led us to that final with a collection of players who were never, ever going to get there of their own accord. Rafa was just lucky to take charge of a team with balance, you say? Bollox. If it was all down to Houllier's players, why didn't Houllier win, or go close to winning, the Champions League? Rafa instilled balance and purpose in that side and they went out and won the greatest cup competition in world football. For that, the man deserves immense credit, regardless of what's happened since. I appreciate that some people are now fed up with Rafa and want shut of him but to denigrate and dismiss the great things he's accomplished is just petty. It is possible to effectively make the case that he needs to go despite what he's achieved in the Champions League but, IMO, it's impossible to maintain any credibility whatsoever when suggesting that Rafa had no hand in winning us the Champions League in 05.

Ok bob if u think thats cool I think other way so lets agree to disagree.

I feel maybe it was Hollier never really put the CL on his list of things to win and used to focus on league.

Or maybe it was he lack of exp in that compition that was his down fail.

I meen he did take us on to win in uafa cup so maybe they was a small sign on what that squad of players could reach in europe.

But its just like people to forget those types of things.

I personal never had problem with hollier I always thought he tryed to play open attacking football and I think he built one of the most promising squads of players we have had for over 15 years.

But by sounds of feeling on this forum not many of you liked him so i can see how this would make it easyer for you to take away much of the credit he should have got for that CL win.

Also I think way Rafa setup team first half showed that it was luck his only option really to throw on Hamann and hope for best.

I feel the pure drive of gerrard and the power of our fans bring our team back from the brink of defeat did more then any thing rafa did that night (right manager in right place at the right time).

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