Liverpool FC Forum

by **we all dream...** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:00 am

As you can tell with all the :censored:

's i had a bad night.

by **bunglemark2** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:02 am

we all dream... wrote:I watched the game in my local boozer, which unfortunately at the moment is in west London, dont get me wrong, I love london, but I love the north west so much more. Basically I sit there amongst a load of southern liverpool fans all spouting off about how we are and how we always are n how rafa is and "what a donkey torres is for missing that chance, hes lost it" n "that gerrard needs to get his head on the game, hes " n "rafa hasn't a clue, why go with 442" and the same guy say " why take keane off, kuyts , take him off, anyway bring bable on, we need 442." Even "those yanks are ruin the club" annoys me because they know nothing about this great club and the reason real fans are angry, upset and emmbaressed. These dicks dont know the half of it, they can't even hold a proper conversation on anything real.

Basically im watchin football at home from now on. Uneducated .

I had a heavy conversation with some "geezer" at full time for mouthing off like a pr1ck about how we need to sack Rafa. Basically his argument was sack rafa now, get someone else, it would "shake up the players to perform better than this so far this season" aswell as giving someone else a go at selling and buying players. If he had a decent argument to back up his ideas i would have sat and talked to him and had a decent in depth debate about the club i love. Instead he was full of hot fart smelling air. dont wana bore u with the details but by the end if the conversation I had called him a and said untill you actually think about what ur saying and why ur saying it stop bad mouthing my club.

I just wish people would take an educated view of things down here and not jump on band wagons, one week sone guy will be saying he like kuyt the next that he is . I have respect for a lot of people on here cos they have educated argument and stick to their beliefs unless something changes them, and most people are humble.

These I have to deal with in "The New Inn" snassy name, do me head in.

I love my club and will support then thru think and thin, at the moment things are better than they have been for 18 years and im lovong it, where not gonna win every game and we are gonna have a bad run. But for sake stop demolishin what we have got by tearing everthing to shreads.

Wash yer mouth out, son.....no need for all those expletives......you c**t !!

by **bunglemark2** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:14 am

Ace Ventura wrote:Cant be bothered ready through the post mortem.

There are a couple of things that really bothered me last night.
I'll get the one about the manager out the way first.
Firstly just to say i was happy with the team, i think its close to the best we can put out, what he possibly should of done though is played the same team against Stoke last weekend considering Keane hasnt been selected at all the previous week and when he has been selected it has mostly been in a different formation - not the managers fault that Torres has been injured but it would of helped to have given them a start together away at Stoke last week.
Anyways like i say i was happy with the starting line up it was positive.
What i am fuming about is the substitutions.
To be fair to Rafa it was difficult who to take off first between Keane and Riera as they were both woeful, so am not bothered about Keane being dragged off this time around - he was poor whether thats due to the way he has been treated previously is another matter, he deserved to come off last night.
The one that bothered me most was Torres for Lucas, i know there was only about 6 minutes left but it just smacks of us hanging on for dear life when we were not before the change.
Now Torres did look shattered, he has just come back from a long injury and worked his erse off. So it wasnt the taking him off, it was who it was for. He should of at least brought on Babel for Torres and asked him to stay up top and keep them pegged back a bit.
What he effectively did in taking Keane and Torres off leaving just Kuyt as the only recognised striker on the pitch is surrendered territory, as Kuyt drops too deep most of the time.
So the last 6 minutes we invited them on, now we are a good side usually backs against the wall defending for dear life, but did we need to be ?
I dont think so, he should of trusted the players more, he should of brought an attacker on for an attacker and been positive, we allowed them to put pressure on us when they didnt really seem to have any more ideas left.

The goal itself though was all our own fault, firstly the stupid challenge from Benayoun to give away the free kick, it was clear that we were not comfortable with crosses into the box so giving away a free kick in a dangerous area right at the death was clumsy to put it mild.
Then the defending ?? if you can call it that, i know we mark zonally but whoever is in Cahills zone surely needs to be awake. He had threatened a few times in the air earlier so it was no great surprise that he would get on the end of something.

On a positive side apart from his miss was made up with Torres, he looked really lively and there were signs of him getting back to form.
Negatives - Keane, was abysmal and its a real concern the lack of striking options.
It doesnt look great on the transfer front but if we have any money in this window we need to be looking to bring in a striking option.
Not going into names, its been done to death but we clearly need further options/possibilities - rafa's favourite word in the past.

Spot on there....mostly.....

I don't get the substitutions meself.
A. I don't see why Rafa would bring on Benayoun AT ALL ! Never mind for 10 or 15 mins....he's well and truly awful, perhaps the single worst player in the whole squad. A stupid, stupid, stupid challenge in a dangerous part of the pitch. But well done Benny, you're consistent..
B. Lucas for Torres - you play with a defensive mindset in a Liverpool derby and what the hell do you expect ? If it meant that Torres was going to be stretchered off at the end from exhaustion, so be it, that's what it takes to win the league and wrestle it away from Manc scum in recent years. Keeping Torres on the pitch, means that 2 or 3 Everton defenders are on their guard, hanging back, meaning their midfield would also have to hang back - meaning donkey Benayoun wouldn't be scything down one of 'em in front of their supporters at the wrong end of the pitch. (Which brings me back to A. above).
C. Rafa - wake up and smell the coffee ! Take the rose-tinted glasses off ! This is ANOTHER 2 points dropped in an eminently winnable game at home on hallowed turf. Don't try to fool us into thinking it's not a shoight result, it is ! Plain and simple ! Cop on to yourself. Enough of the pseudo mindgames - try mess with the heads of other managers from a winning mentality position...not a "We are in a ferry good position, no ? We are in Champions League, in secon' place...." We should be top by a distance, save for the uber-cautious mentality...

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:15 am

West London is an area which is rich in football gobsh!tes. Most of them support Chelsea in my experience, who they call "Chels'". The main football song they know is "No surrender to the Ira", and most of them are employed in the building industry, principally as scaffolders according to my research. There is also seemingly a lot of them called "Gal" (short for Gary) for reasons which I simply can't fathom. Almost all of them like a bit of Charlie from time to time (Chas' as it's known) which they "take up their hooter". While no doubt making them feel younger and more virile, this has the unfortunate side effect of making them talk even more b0ll0cks and at an even louder volume than usual.

Liverpool fans in London who are not scousers cover a fairly wide spectrum from what I've seen. I've met some fairly knowledgeable ones, but also some t0ssers as well. Unfortunately, the OOTer culture does mean that often Liverpool fans not from the ciry will waste a good deal of their time trying to convince each other how "genuine" they are. While having the complete boxed set of Brookside is all very well, it's a better conversation if both people have at least a basic iidea what they're on about.

I watched it in the Christchurch casino, along with about seven other people (in the whole casino that is, there were four people watching it). One of those was an Aussie bloke who was unfortunately as loud as he was clueless. He's probably done his OE as they call it over here and worked behind the bar in the New Inn.

by **Rush Job** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:39 am

Ace Ventura wrote:Cant be bothered ready through the post mortem.

There are a couple of things that really bothered me last night.
I'll get the one about the manager out the way first.
Firstly just to say i was happy with the team, i think its close to the best we can put out, what he possibly should of done though is played the same team against Stoke last weekend considering Keane hasnt been selected at all the previous week and when he has been selected it has mostly been in a different formation - not the managers fault that Torres has been injured but it would of helped to have given them a start together away at Stoke last week.
Anyways like i say i was happy with the starting line up it was positive.
What i am fuming about is the substitutions.
To be fair to Rafa it was difficult who to take off first between Keane and Riera as they were both woeful, so am not bothered about Keane being dragged off this time around - he was poor whether thats due to the way he has been treated previously is another matter, he deserved to come off last night.
The one that bothered me most was Torres for Lucas, i know there was only about 6 minutes left but it just smacks of us hanging on for dear life when we were not before the change.
Now Torres did look shattered, he has just come back from a long injury and worked his erse off. So it wasnt the taking him off, it was who it was for. He should of at least brought on Babel for Torres and asked him to stay up top and keep them pegged back a bit.
What he effectively did in taking Keane and Torres off leaving just Kuyt as the only recognised striker on the pitch is surrendered territory, as Kuyt drops too deep most of the time.
So the last 6 minutes we invited them on, now we are a good side usually backs against the wall defending for dear life, but did we need to be ?
I dont think so, he should of trusted the players more, he should of brought an attacker on for an attacker and been positive, we allowed them to put pressure on us when they didnt really seem to have any more ideas left.

The goal itself though was all our own fault, firstly the stupid challenge from Benayoun to give away the free kick, it was clear that we were not comfortable with crosses into the box so giving away a free kick in a dangerous area right at the death was clumsy to put it mild.
Then the defending ?? if you can call it that, i know we mark zonally but whoever is in Cahills zone surely needs to be awake. He had threatened a few times in the air earlier so it was no great surprise that he would get on the end of something.

On a positive side apart from his miss was made up with Torres, he looked really lively and there were signs of him getting back to form.
Negatives - Keane, was abysmal and its a real concern the lack of striking options.
It doesnt look great on the transfer front but if we have any money in this window we need to be looking to bring in a striking option.
Not going into names, its been done to death but we clearly need further options/possibilities - rafa's favourite word in the past.

Totally agree Rafa fked us again, taking off both our strikers and letting the bitters move 40 yards up the park and squeeze the play in our half. It was like saying go on Moyels have a right good go at us instead of staying positive and keeping the presure on them.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:57 am

It's strange but I sense there is a bit of a change of mood amongst some posters. Bizarrely as a fully paid up anti (actually rotationally speaking only but I seem to get lumped in with anyone who's anti anything these days) I'm finding a few posters with whom I've locked horns in the past, posting up some odd stuff which is more anti than me

I've had a couple of little centretemps with Rushie in the past, and there's one or two others who's tone has just slightly moved I think. It's strange because although the substitutions were possibly a bit defensive, I really can't lay too much blame myself at Rafa's door for the Everton result. We ought to have won the game despite not playing well, and would have if we had defended the set piece better. Now due to excellent defensive coaching we normally don't concede from set-pieces, it just so happens that this time a couple of players went to kip. It happens but you can't really blame the manager I don't think. If we were conceding set piece goals all over the place fair enough, but we don't.

As for the subs, you could argue that we might have brought Babel on (I did). To be fair though, there have been occasions when he has come on and been absolutely fecking useless so I'm not going to make a big thing about it. More strange I think was not bringing Masherano on when we took Keane off. That would have let us go into a standard 4-5-1 and I'm fairly sure we'd have boxed the game off. All that said though, they barely made a chance in the last 20 minutes aside from the goal and had the game petered out 1-0, nobody would have mentioned the subs at all.

The main issue for Rafa was the front two. Now Keane was absolutely anonymous so to be honest I think the manager showed a fair bit of faith on this occasion by giving him an hour. he was awful and there surely aren't many people who would have kept him on. Similarly, Torres was absolutely out on his feet, and if anything needed to come off sooner.

No, for me the subs is a bit of a red herring. We never really got going, we had the look of a team which hadn't played together for a long time which is exactly what we were. One of those things, the result is only massively disappointing because of what's gone before.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:12 am

bigmick wrote:There is also seemingly a lot of them called "Gal" (short for Gary)

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:36 am

bigmick wrote:No, for me the subs is a bit of a red herring. We never really got going, we had the look of a team which hadn't played together for a long time which is exactly what we were. One of those things, the result is only massively disappointing because of what's gone before.

If things aren't going well you change them. Rafa dallies a long time over substitutions, that's great for giving players a long chance to turn a poor performance around, but what about the fresh legs on the bench - like Babel - that could change the course of a game?

Neither Kuyt nor Riera was doing anything, not long after Keane came off Gerrard scored - maybe there was a psychological effect from a change in role.............

The other problem is the fans are as aware as the players must be that there isn't a lot on the bench to change things. What was it - goalie, Arbeloa, Lucas and Mascherano making up four of the subs? The mancs have the 'problem' of who to leave out from Tevez, Berbatov and Rooney, we have the problem of only having misfiring Keane and injury hit Torres as serious attacking options remotely in the same class.

I would agree in a sense that the substitutions aren't a factor, leastwise the ones Rafa makes usually don't make any difference. Substitutions are a potentially powerful weapon in a football game, they can make a difference by taking off players playing poorly, bringing on fresh legs and even tactical switches in formation, approach, different type of attacker etc. Rafa does not make most of this weapon, he's too set in his ideas and he almost seems dead set against doing anything other than bringing midfielders on - even then they're not always very attacking ones.

On the flip side of who comes on, who goes off. Our supposed solution to the left side of midfield and both of our two strikers. Torres is our goalscorer and I'd have him on 95 minutes a game because he can conjure up something out of nothing - like Gerrard. In a way I wish we had kept Crouch and not signed Keane for the reason that he is something different, not that that alone is necessarily the be all and end all or compensates not scoring enough, but at least it would be a better change to our approach than sticking Benayoun, Babel and Lucas on. I'd back Crouch to score more than those three - possibly put together!

by **Number 9** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:37 am

bigmick wrote:West London is an area which is rich in football gobsh!tes. Most of them support Chelsea in my experience, who they call "Chels'". The main football song they know is "No surrender to the Ira", and most of them are employed in the building industry, principally as scaffolders according to my research. There is also seemingly a lot of them called "Gal" (short for Gary) for reasons which I simply can't fathom. Almost all of them like a bit of Charlie from time to time (Chas' as it's known) which they "take up their hooter". While no doubt making them feel younger and more virile, this has the unfortunate side effect of making them talk even more b0ll0cks and at an even louder volume than usual.

Sometimes i wish you'd post less football and more of this!
PMSL! :laugh:

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:53 am

Owzat wrote:
bigmick wrote:No, for me the subs is a bit of a red herring. We never really got going, we had the look of a team which hadn't played together for a long time which is exactly what we were. One of those things, the result is only massively disappointing because of what's gone before.

If things aren't going well you change them. Rafa dallies a long time over substitutions, that's great for giving players a long chance to turn a poor performance around, but what about the fresh legs on the bench - like Babel - that could change the course of a game?

Neither Kuyt nor Riera was doing anything, not long after Keane came off Gerrard scored - maybe there was a psychological effect from a change in role.............

The other problem is the fans are as aware as the players must be that there isn't a lot on the bench to change things. What was it - goalie, Arbeloa, Lucas and Mascherano making up four of the subs? The mancs have the 'problem' of who to leave out from Tevez, Berbatov and Rooney, we have the problem of only having misfiring Keane and injury hit Torres as serious attacking options remotely in the same class.

I would agree in a sense that the substitutions aren't a factor, leastwise the ones Rafa makes usually don't make any difference. Substitutions are a potentially powerful weapon in a football game, they can make a difference by taking off players playing poorly, bringing on fresh legs and even tactical switches in formation, approach, different type of attacker etc. Rafa does not make most of this weapon, he's too set in his ideas and he almost seems dead set against doing anything other than bringing midfielders on - even then they're not always very attacking ones.

On the flip side of who comes on, who goes off. Our supposed solution to the left side of midfield and both of our two strikers. Torres is our goalscorer and I'd have him on 95 minutes a game because he can conjure up something out of nothing - like Gerrard. In a way I wish we had kept Crouch and not signed Keane for the reason that he is something different, not that that alone is necessarily the be all and end all or compensates not scoring enough, but at least it would be a better change to our approach than sticking Benayoun, Babel and Lucas on. I'd back Crouch to score more than those three - possibly put together!

Owz you misunderstand me here. I'm not saying that in general I agree with Rafa's substitutions, because often I don't. Equally, I'm not saying that substitutions never make any difference, because they do.

What I'm broadly saying here is that despite many of us having questions about the subs, the timing of them etc I don't think on this occasion it had a huge effect on the result.

You could even argue that many of us who have advocated leaving Riera on for longer were proven flat wrong. I have no doubts that if the free kick had been earlier in the piece, he would have headed it out. Who knows whether the precise reason he was left on in preference to Babel is because he is better at defending set-pieces than the Dutchman. I'm not having a pop at the manager when I say I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if that was the case.

Your point about the bench is fair enough, we are more than a bit light on options and possibilities. I do though find it hard to have a go at the manager for not bringing Babel on, he is just as likely to come out with his i-pod still on as he is to come out fired up. He really is a box of chocolates player, but one who throws up the Turkish Delight in preference to the nut cluster far too often for my liking.

BTW thanks Baz. You saying my football posts are boring as feck or something?

by **tonyeh** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:29 am

Mick, you may be correct in your assertion that the subs on that night weren't as big an effect as some have said, but they certainly compounded the situation. Taking Keane off was fair enough (as he was pretty bad), even though I personally would have left the team as it was, but taking Torres of with just 5 minutes to go was just plain stupid. Are we really trying to suggest that Torres couldn't have just knocked around for another few minutes and at the very least took up the attention of Evertons back 4?

No, that sub basically gave Everton the balls to bring it on full to the Liverpool box and they got a result.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:50 am

I actually would have brought Torres off a bit earlier Tony to be honest. He was running on empty from about the hour mark it seemed to me. The trouble is/was with Keane playing so bad, we didn't/don't have anybody else. Putting Kuyt up there is kind of like sending a nightwatchman in at cricket. You hope he might make a nuisance of himself (and hope it might be to the opposition) but you know that he's not actually a specialist in the role. Strangely, that move may have cost us defensively as well because if Dirk had been tackling Amechobi it might have been a totally dfferent matter. No doubt they'd have ran into each other, it would have bounced off Dirks shins, they'd have grappled a bit, wrestled a bit and then both fallen over.

Benayoun doesn't unfortunately offer the same defensive shield which Kuyt does.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:24 am

bigmick wrote:As for the subs, you could argue that we might have brought Babel on (I did). To be fair though, there have been occasions when he has come on and been absolutely fecking useless so I'm not going to make a big thing about it.

Mick sorry to only quote part of your post, its just that this part is the issue i had with Rafa.
Babel came on against united and Chelsea and did really well causing a real problem.
But he has also like you said come on in plenty of games and been woeful - i think Stoke at home may have been one of the games, right after the positive impact at Stamford bridge.

The reason i think if you were taking Torres off it should of been for Babel is to keep territory, the change made us drop so deep and invited them on in a game that they had seemed to have run out of ideas.
Babel despite his faults offers the ball over the top option, meaning that the Everton defenders wouldnt of been able to push so far up the pitch.

It also smacks of desperation imo, let them worry about us, its handing over initiative i feel.
Caution has cost us again.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:52 pm

Owzat wrote:Neither Kuyt nor Riera was doing anything, not long after Keane came off Gerrard scored - maybe there was a psychological effect from a change in role.............

Not sure, mate. From what I could tell we stuck with 4-4-2 after that switch: Benayoun went to RM, Kuyt went up top to partner Torres and Gerrard stayed where he was at CM. We didn't change the shape until Torres came off.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:52 pm

bigmick wrote:I do though find it hard to have a go at the manager for not bringing Babel on, he is just as likely to come out with his i-pod still on as he is to come out fired up. He really is a box of chocolates player, but one who throws up the Turkish Delight in preference to the nut cluster far too often for my liking.

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