Liverpool FC Forum

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

comparisons to Valencia in Spain, to us now are very relevant IMO. Madrid and Barca are a spending super power, especially Madrid. At the time, there was no more self-indulgent club than they. To fashion a team to break apart those two's dominance is quiet and achievement. Yesterday we had the news that Kaka could be on his way to City, and before anyone says no chance, well, money talks. That's 100 million plus, people. Milan, without really saying it, want that cash. They are an aging side and could use it. If Kaka is persuaded, then that means that City will have spent half of Rafa's entire budget in five seasons on just one player. Think about that. This is what we're up against now with the Mancs already having a stable winning side, Chelsea having super spending power, and now City have even bigger spending power. Arsenal, well, they are starting to feel the pinch now because of that too, whereas we are looking somewhat steady as challengers at the top of the table, and are a super power once again in Europe. Rafa is stubborn and makes errors that frustrate, indeed. But the way some of you carry on like babies spitting the dummy when he doesn't do things according to your vast knowledge of football and instantly call for his head, is completely ridiculous when weighing up the pros and cons of what our club has now to contend with as I've stated.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:03 am

Emerald Red wrote:But the way some of you carry on like babies spitting the dummy when he doesn't do things according to your vast knowledge of football and instantly call for his head, is completely ridiculous when weighing up the pros and cons of what our club has now to contend with as I've stated.

It was an intersting post (though I didn't agree with it all as I think comparisons with Valencia six or seven seasons ago are less relevant than you do) until this last bit.

I haven't seen that much spitting the dummy, nor calling for his head but there you go. The sh!t did well and truly hit the fan on here about a week ago, but as usual that was more people desperately trying to shout down what they consider "anti-Rafaisms" than it was people calling for the managers head.

Coming back to the Valencia thing and running with it for a sec', there are a couple of points I'd raise, and questions I'd ask of people more knowledgeable about the situation than me. I think I'm right in saying that Rafa took over a good side built by Hector Cuper and improved upon it to the extent that they won the title twice in three seasons. It did coincide with a historicically poor Real and Barcelona team by all accounts, but that was hardly his problem just as it isn't his problem that Chelsea and Arsenal are relatively poor teams this season.

The questions are these. Were Valencia outspent by a huge amount by the big two, or were they like us able to go out and spend 40 million quid in the Summer? The other question is, was Rafa in total control there of players he brought in (I remember a quote about dishwashers and washing machines or something similar).

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:03 am

bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:But the way some of you carry on like babies spitting the dummy when he doesn't do things according to your vast knowledge of football and instantly call for his head, is completely ridiculous when weighing up the pros and cons of what our club has now to contend with as I've stated.

It was an intersting post (though I didn't agree with it all as I think comparisons with Valencia six or seven seasons ago are less relevant than you do) until this last bit.

I haven't seen that much spitting the dummy, nor calling for his head but there you go. The sh!t did well and truly hit the fan on here about a week ago, but as usual that was more people desperately trying to shout down what they consider "anti-Rafaisms" than it was people calling for the managers head.

Coming back to the Valencia thing and running with it for a sec', there are a couple of points I'd raise, and questions I'd ask of people more knowledgeable about the situation than me. I think I'm right in saying that Rafa took over a good side built by Hector Cuper and improved upon it to the extent that they won the title twice in three seasons. It did coincide with a historicically poor Real and Barcelona team by all accounts, but that was hardly his problem just as it isn't his problem that Chelsea and Arsenal are relatively poor teams this season.

The questions are these. Were Valencia outspent by a huge amount by the big two, or were they like us able to go out and spend 40 million quid in the Summer? The other question is, was Rafa in total control there of players he brought in (I remember a quote about dishwashers and washing machines or something similar).

Well, as you said, the proverbial did hit the fan in recent weeks on here, but I haven't been here for that long. Certainly not as long as your good self, but there have been periods of ridiculous amounts negativity directed towards the manager and the team, and in particular, certain players. Certainly in some of the match threads, should we draw or lose, it gets a tad out of hand. In contrast, some argue that they support LFC to see some nice fluent football being played, yet if we play scrappy and bag a win, it doesn't really seem to matter as all is forgiven. However, play well and draw, and some unsavory things are said by the same people. I don't understand this whatsoever. It's football, and this is what makes the game so great. Things won't always go to your liking. You just have to grit and bare it when they don't and only do what can only be asked as a supporter and that is to support.

As for the debate about Benitez' alleged inheritance of a already decent squad built by Hector Cuper and Barca and Madrid being so called weakened teams is a moot point IMO. The Moon, Sun and the stars all must have come into some kind of cosmic aligning for Rafa to guide Velencia to those titles when he did. This is like saying that Mourhino, or some other high profile manager, taking over the likes of Villa and then guiding them to the EPL title. Could it happen with that squad of players under a decent manager? Highly unlikely, and I think you'd agree. Rafa took over a decent squad, yes, but it was his individual stamp on the club that made them champions regardless of whether or not Madrid and Barca were weak, and to be honest, there hasn't really been a truly weak side of either of those clubs. Weak management, certainly, but their teams have always contained world class.

As for Rafa's transfer policy at Valencia, I'm fairly certain that it was for this reason that he quit the job. He didn't have carte blanch of the signings there. He wasn't allowed his specific targets, and the reason why his contract being renewed here is stalling is for this one specific reason. He wants the control here that he didn't have there, and if that doesn't happen, well, some people will get their wish in the summer when he leaves for either Madrid or Inter, but don't quote me on that.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:34 am

Why do people take it as a slag off as the manager if you point out that some of the immediate rivals aren't as strong as they might have been historically. IT DOESN'T MATTER, IT DIDN'T MATTER AT VALENCIA AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! The reason why I mentioned it was not to diminish the achievement which was without question a huge one, it was to assertain whether or not he was left a better outfit by Cuper than he was by Houllier (my feeling is that he probably was), and whether or not that outfit was as far behind the so-called big clubs as we were when he took over (my hunch is that they weren't, and it would be an even bigger feat to win the Premiership from where we were).

As for the transfer control, I'm not sure exactly what he's asking for so it's hard to comment. As it is, he was given the freedom in the Summer to buy a forward for 20 million quid who is 28 years old and who it appears doesn't get into our first team, so quite how someone can have more freedom than that I'm not sure. He certainly has all the necessary freedom to buy fullbacks as well, so it's probably just the freedom to sign Gareth Barry we are talking about. Forty million quid in one Summer is quite a lot though, most managers are expected to stick to some kind of budget. Anyway, hopefully he won't feck off I like having him around. He provides plenty of talking points you've got to give him that

.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:19 am

I think to compare the Valencia side Rafa took over to Aston Villa is stretching a point Emerald. Valencia had reached the Champions League FINAL in BOTH the previous seasons prior to Rafa's appointment, while Villa havent even managed to qualify for for the Champions League. It was hardly just an average side he took over.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:34 am

s@int wrote:I think to compare the Valencia side Rafa took over to Aston Villa is stretching a point Emerald. Valencia had reached the Champions League FINAL in BOTH the previous seasons prior to Rafa's appointment, while Villa havent even managed to qualify for for the Champions League. It was hardly just an average side he took over.

I must confess I didn't know that they'd reached the Champions League final in the two seasons prior to Rafa's arrival S@int. Anyways best I don't dwell on it too long as people will go apopleptic and accuse me of Rafa bashing.

However good they were before he got there, it's definately fair to say that he managed to improve them anyway (he says as he ducks for cover

).

by **Owzat** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:34 am

bigmick wrote:As for the transfer control, I'm not sure exactly what he's asking for so it's hard to comment. As it is, he was given the freedom in the Summer to buy a forward for 20 million quid who is 28 years old and who it appears doesn't get into our first team, so quite how someone can have more freedom than that I'm not sure. He certainly has all the necessary freedom to buy fullbacks as well, so it's probably just the freedom to sign Gareth Barry we are talking about. Forty million quid in one Summer is quite a lot though, most managers are expected to stick to some kind of budget. Anyway, hopefully he won't feck off I like having him around. He provides plenty of talking points you've got to give him that .

Spending money isn't a problem unless you end up having spent shedloads and it shows little improvement in the XI/squad.

2008/9

Keane £20.3m - couldn't buy a goal having played in each of the first 19 games and now Rafa won't even bring him on off of the bench some games.

Dossena £7m - looks like a really bad buy, Insua and Aurelio look better bets at LB

N'Gog £1.5m - doesn't look much more than an occaisional filler in up front

Cavalieri £3m - plays when Reina is rested, looks shakey

RIERA £8m - the pick of the buys, Rafa insists on taking him off regularly around 3/4 of the way through the game.

Degen FREE - injured every time he plays

So out of £40m we get most out of £8m worth (1/5), with £27m tried, without much success and now seemingly distrusted to the point people speculate if they might be sold in January (Dossena and Keane) I'm happy we had £40m to spend, maybe a bit more wisely would have been good. We also ended up a striker light, since Rafa doesn't seem to want to use Babel in that role and Kuyt is proving more of a success at RM. It now seems Rafa isn't rating Keane enough to put him at CF ahead of Kuyt, the signing of Keane seems to have made the situation worse not better

Or put simply in a way that sums the situation up, would you expect many clubs to sign £40m worth of players in the summer and their fans to be discussing the possible sale of them in the January window? Riera may be the one exception, but I'm sure reasonable (or larger) proportions of fans on here wouldn't cry themselves to sleep if Degen, Cavalieri, Keane, Dossena or N'Gog were sold - what does that say about Rafa's summer of spending? Just when we were looking to mount a title challenge, ironically you could say we're in position to, he makes a load of rubbish signings - Riera excepted.

If we were third or fourth right now, I'm guessing there'd be enough fans calling for his head based on poor tactics, signings etc. I now find myself about to use something said about Keane's dropping against Newcastle, that the result is everything. Doesn't matter that we've struggled to the top, run out of puff and are nervously looking down at fast approaching mancs, that we're top is seen as the key factor. How bad would we look if we started calling for his head, even though there is justifiable cause? It's not the done thing, like not questioning Rafa for dropping Keane for the Newcastle game because we won 5-1.

I just wonder though, if we slip down the table as I fear is more than a distinct possibility, how much of his poor spending, tactics etc will ultimately count against Rafa. Like the ordinary 800m runner in an Olympic semi who sprints off, runs out of puff towards the end and finishes fifth or sixth, do you admire them for getting to the finishing straight in front or criticise them for poor tactics that maybe cost them a place in the final. Maybe that's a good analogy, we have kept out in front, but we may yet be passed by a team or two.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:20 am

Owzat wrote:
bigmick wrote:As for the transfer control, I'm not sure exactly what he's asking for so it's hard to comment. As it is, he was given the freedom in the Summer to buy a forward for 20 million quid who is 28 years old and who it appears doesn't get into our first team, so quite how someone can have more freedom than that I'm not sure. He certainly has all the necessary freedom to buy fullbacks as well, so it's probably just the freedom to sign Gareth Barry we are talking about. Forty million quid in one Summer is quite a lot though, most managers are expected to stick to some kind of budget. Anyway, hopefully he won't feck off I like having him around. He provides plenty of talking points you've got to give him that .

Spending money isn't a problem unless you end up having spent shedloads and it shows little improvement in the XI/squad.

2008/9

Keane £20.3m - couldn't buy a goal having played in each of the first 19 games and now Rafa won't even bring him on off of the bench some games.

Dossena £7m - looks like a really bad buy, Insua and Aurelio look better bets at LB

N'Gog £1.5m - doesn't look much more than an occaisional filler in up front

Cavalieri £3m - plays when Reina is rested, looks shakey

RIERA £8m - the pick of the buys, Rafa insists on taking him off regularly around 3/4 of the way through the game.

Degen FREE - injured every time he plays

So out of £40m we get most out of £8m worth (1/5), with £27m tried, without much success and now seemingly distrusted to the point people speculate if they might be sold in January (Dossena and Keane) I'm happy we had £40m to spend, maybe a bit more wisely would have been good. We also ended up a striker light, since Rafa doesn't seem to want to use Babel in that role and Kuyt is proving more of a success at RM. It now seems Rafa isn't rating Keane enough to put him at CF ahead of Kuyt, the signing of Keane seems to have made the situation worse not better

Or put simply in a way that sums the situation up, would you expect many clubs to sign £40m worth of players in the summer and their fans to be discussing the possible sale of them in the January window? Riera may be the one exception, but I'm sure reasonable (or larger) proportions of fans on here wouldn't cry themselves to sleep if Degen, Cavalieri, Keane, Dossena or N'Gog were sold - what does that say about Rafa's summer of spending? Just when we were looking to mount a title challenge, ironically you could say we're in position to, he makes a load of rubbish signings - Riera excepted.

If we were third or fourth right now, I'm guessing there'd be enough fans calling for his head based on poor tactics, signings etc. I now find myself about to use something said about Keane's dropping against Newcastle, that the result is everything. Doesn't matter that we've struggled to the top, run out of puff and are nervously looking down at fast approaching mancs, that we're top is seen as the key factor. How bad would we look if we started calling for his head, even though there is justifiable cause? It's not the done thing, like not questioning Rafa for dropping Keane for the Newcastle game because we won 5-1.

I just wonder though, if we slip down the table as I fear is more than a distinct possibility, how much of his poor spending, tactics etc will ultimately count against Rafa. Like the ordinary 800m runner in an Olympic semi who sprints off, runs out of puff towards the end and finishes fifth or sixth, do you admire them for getting to the finishing straight in front or criticise them for poor tactics that maybe cost them a place in the final. Maybe that's a good analogy, we have kept out in front, but we may yet be passed by a team or two.

While I don't think the outlook is as grim as the picture you have painted Owzat , I have to agree that his signings this summer are beginning to look more and more like his disasterous signing of 2006.

Summer 2006 Bellamy Palletta Pennant Kuyt Aurelio
Summer 2008 Keane Dossenna Riera N'gog Degen

I thought we took a big step back that season 2006/07 even though we reached the CL final, I just hope we dont take a big step back this time around.

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:39 am

But how can we have taken a big step back S@int when we are top of the league and have many more points than after the same number of games last season, and without Torres? There must surely be some reason why we can afford to be without one of the best strikers in the World and still be significantly better off as far as the league table is concerned. Surely it can't be that Riera's one hour cameo's have not only compensated for Torres's absense, but have also stuck seven or eight points on our total so far from last season? He's a good player but not that good surely?

If you look at the segments of the season where we've really gained on previous ones, it was at the very start of the campaign. In those first dozen games or so, that was when we really seemed to improve on what had gone before. Recently, the wheels have started to wobble a bit, but jeez did we fly out og the blocks results wise or what.

Perhaps if we could put our finger on what we did differently during those first twelve games to what we had done previously, we might be able to recreate that momentum. I just can't think for the life of me what it was. Any ideas anyone

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:49 am

I think you will have to give us a clue Mick, although I have a few ideas rotating around in my head

by **andy_g** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:58 am

bigmick wrote:Perhaps if we could put our finger on what we did differently during those first twelve games to what we had done previously, we might be able to recreate that momentum. I just can't think for the life of me what it was. Any ideas anyone

off the top of my head...

torres played a few games, reira gave us new balance, we played a pretty much consistent 'strongest eleven', it wasn't too cold, there was a general optimism about the coming season, gerrard playing out of his skin, a possible 'sammy lee factor', alonso back to his old self

we had all those things pretty much for every game at first and i think that is what this club needed to get itself to the top. take away just one or two of those elements though and everything begins to get a little ragged.

but hey, we're top of the table....

for a bit

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:15 pm

bigmick wrote:But how can we have taken a big step back S@int when we are top of the league and have many more points than after the same number of games last season, and without Torres? There must surely be some reason why we can afford to be without one of the best strikers in the World and still be significantly better off as far as the league table is concerned. Surely it can't be that Riera's one hour cameo's have not only compensated for Torres's absense, but have also stuck seven or eight points on our total so far from last season? He's a good player but not that good surely?

If you look at the segments of the season where we've really gained on previous ones, it was at the very start of the campaign. In those first dozen games or so, that was when we really seemed to improve on what had gone before. Recently, the wheels have started to wobble a bit, but jeez did we fly out og the blocks results wise or what.

Perhaps if we could put our finger on what we did differently during those first twelve games to what we had done previously, we might be able to recreate that momentum. I just can't think for the life of me what it was. Any ideas anyone

Was it that we actually went for it in a lot of those games we got the results in?

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:22 pm

Nah. It was the lack of rotation :laugh:

.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:33 pm

bigmick wrote:Nah. It was the lack of rotation .

I asked for a clue ..... not the answer

by **bigmick** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:41 pm

s@int wrote:
bigmick wrote:Nah. It was the lack of rotation .

I asked for a clue ..... not the answer

Well nobody had got it S@int, I went to bed and got up this morning and still nobody had got it

I think poor old Emerald thought he had the right answer so I thought I'd put everyone out of their misery :laugh:

.

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