Liverpool FC Forum

by **andy_g** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:32 am

i don't think we as a team lack ambition but maybe one or two players do. without wanting to make this an attack on kuyt, who i rate as a reasonably good player, its frustrating how so many attacks break down when the ball gets to him. he's excellent at keeping possession most of the time but this leads him to stop and play the ball backwards 90% of the time, unless he's absolutely certain he can take it forward safely. if once in a while he'd take a risk to keep the forward momentum going we might just be a better attacking side and break down these resolute defences once in a while.

its kind of tricky to define ambition in footballing terms anyway, imo. if ambition means going for the swashbuckling style of man u or arsenal at their best then we are never going to do it with the personnel we've got. if ambition can be defined as always pressing and trying to stop the other team playing, to control a game then we have that in spades.

i don't agree that we always settle for the draw with about 20 mins to go either. far too often its only in the last 10 or even 5 minutes that we see the all or nothing barrage on the opposition goal. if we could only sustain that kind of urgency for most of a game i think we'd be quite difficult to live with.

so, in answer to the question... i don't know

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:35 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Anyway, moving swiftly on to somebody who actually knows something about football.

Your fuc.king attitude stinks, and the way you have lorded it in this thread reminds me a lot of Stu.

Firstly, apologies for the misunderstanding earlier. Your sarcasm was way over my head, I'm not even sure I understand it now I've had chance to think about it, but apologies anyway I was wrong.

As for my attitude, or my f.ucking attitude stinking, I'm sorry you think that as well. To understand my response to this particular poster though, would require much reading, going through many many threads and many many interchanges. I don't expect you to do that, but suffice to say I'm not lording it over anyone. It's not and never has been my style, and I'm happy to discuss football with anyone who actually wants to discuss it. If on the other hand a poster continuously comes onto the boards with the sole purpose of engaging me in silly arguments, AND is patently clueless, then even my patience wears thin after a while.

Anybody in any doubts about waht this bloke is all about, needs only to read his post in this thread. Failing that, they could go onto the Robbie keane thread and see his attempts to engage Stu in a row on the last page.

Anyways, enough explanation. Sorry for the misunderstanding earlier, and sorry you think my attitude stinks.

by **tonyeh** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:52 am

bigmick wrote:I was going to put this on the match thread, but as always that descended into a sh!t fight and in any case it's a bit of a recurring theme so I thought I'd stick it here.

Now having read Owzats' posts over the last few years, I am now convinced that you need to win around 27 or so games to win the Premiership. Obviously that's not easy, and sometimes through no fault of your own, a dodgy penalty or a flukey deflection will deny you what you deserve. Equally however, sometimes you are the recipient of a stroke of good fortune which might allow you to nick one where otherwise the game was looking like a draw.

Equally, as it's three points for a win you can afford to lose a couple in your quest for the three points, as obviously three wins and two defeats get you a sh!t load more points than five draws.

So the question is this, do we go for it enough? Did we go for it enough today once Fabregas had been carried off, and Adebayor sent off? Now I know Emerald (surprise surprise ) maintained on the match thread that as we brought on three "attacking" subs, we couldn't really show more intent than that.

For my part, I'm not so sure bringing a second striker on with two minutes to go is that attacking , nor am I convinced that the regulation 65 minute swap of Riera for Babel is that attacking either. Taking Keane off and pushing Kuyt up top seems to me to be very like accepting the result as is, and I for one was left a little disappointed that we didn't go for it more. Would Chelsea, would Man Utd have allowed Arsenal to so comfortably hold on for a point, or would they have risked defeat themselves and gone for the win given the favourable hand they'd been dealt?

Fortune favours the brave and sometimes you've got to go for it. We will NEVER get a better chance of winning the league, it would be a shame to fall short through lack of ambition. Thoughts anyone?

In short, I think the Liverpool team under Rafa are engineered to "not lose games" rather than to "go out to win" games.

I think Rafa is a very conservative manager, who will robotically stick to something even when it quite clearly doesn't work well, a la Babel on LM, taking Keane off on the hour and persisting with Kuyt even if he's a disaster.

The style of game Liverpool seem to play these days is like a wait'n'see attitude. They, all too often, build slowly and wait to see what the opposition does. Then they guage the game based on that.

TBH, the style of play that Rafa dictates to the squad is tired and predictable and I'm getting a bit fed up with it. His man management is woeful and I'm not even sure his much touted "tactical knowledge" is all that, either.

I'm still frankly amazed that Liverpool are top of the table (until later today anyway).

I'm not sure if Liverpool "lack ambition", but certainly the manager remains extremely conservative in his attitude.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:00 am

i was gonna say we play better against 11 men but suddenly remembered we had a comeback against city who had a man sent off too. and of course the other times Xabi sent someone off...

i was content with a draw. would have wanted a win but a draw was OK for us considering the quality of our opponents. i wont touch on Kuyt too...that ball waster. i dont feel our teams has a cutting edge. true, our star player is injured but we should, being a top team, have capable match winners even on the bench. the moment Keane went off it was obvious we were playing to draw as if anyone could conjure something up, it was him. i dont think we lack ambition, we just lack a sense of adventure and guts to take teams by the neck and slit it. the mentality of our players and the gunners were obvious last night.

Wenger could be right at the end of the season when we look back not at this draw, but the others at home.

by **tubby** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:06 am

I think we have enough ambition. You have to to be top of the league. But I think we are lacking some more creative attacking in our team.

by **Alex G.** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:08 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:i was gonna say we play better against 11 men but suddenly remembered we had a comeback against city who had a man sent off too. and of course the other times Xabi sent someone off...

i was content with a draw. would have wanted a win but a draw was OK for us considering the quality of our opponents. i wont touch on Kuyt too...that ball waster. i dont feel our teams has a cutting edge. true, our star player is injured but we should, being a top team, have capable match winners even on the bench. the moment Keane went off it was obvious we were playing to draw as if anyone could conjure something up, it was him. i dont think we lack ambition, we just lack a sense of adventure and guts to take teams by the neck and slit it. the mentality of our players and the gunners were obvious last night.

Wenger could be right at the end of the season when we look back not at this draw, but the others at home.

Wigan would be content with this draw, but not Liverpool.

by **kazza** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:30 am

bigmick wrote:Anybody in any doubts about waht this bloke is all about, needs only to read his post in this thread. Failing that, they could go onto the Robbie keane thread and see his attempts to engage Stu in a row on the last page.

You always show up and gripe after a less than stellar performance, first it was rotation and now lack of ambition. You ARE like Stu in that you think you are cleverer than everyone else, which clearly you are not or you would be involved in football somehow rather than selling rubber dildos (no offence like). I disagreed with you now I am a stalker? And CIGGY backs you up so now it is true? I do not give two to$$es about whether you think I understand football or not or you think I stalk you ( :laugh:

). Too many followerers on this forum!

:laugh:

I just thought of the stalker thing again and it is still funny.

Lately Bigmick you posts have tended to be complaining about one thing or another the manager did but then you add a disclaimer at the end that you like him. At least Stu has the balls to state what he states and not camoflage it (like your your digs at me).

:laugh:

( still funny )

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:35 am

Maybe our lack of goals from defenders and midfield (Gerrard apart)shows a little bit of the lack of ambition Mick talks about? Our defenders have only managed one goal between them for example. While in midfield Masch, Alonso, Riera, Babel, Lucas and Benayoun only 5 between them.

If our forwards are struggling to score (or injured) we need to get more goals from other areas. Unfortunately its rare to see any of our defenders or midfield players in the oppositions box unless for a set play.

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:46 am

kazza wrote:
bigmick wrote:Anybody in any doubts about waht this bloke is all about, needs only to read his post in this thread. Failing that, they could go onto the Robbie keane thread and see his attempts to engage Stu in a row on the last page.

You always show up and gripe after a less than stellar performance, first it was rotation and now lack of ambition. You ARE like Stu in that you think you are cleverer than everyone else, which clearly you are not or you would be involved in football somehow rather than selling rubber dildos (no offence like). I disagreed with you now I am a stalker? And CIGGY backs you up so now it is true? I do not give two to$$es about whether you think I understand football or not or you think I stalk you ( ). Too many followerers on this forum!

I just thought of the stalker thing again and it is still funny.

Lately Bigmick you posts have tended to be complaining about one thing or another the manager did but then you add a disclaimer at the end that you like him. At least Stu has the balls to state what he states and not camoflage it (like your your digs at me).

( still funny )

What a very strange man you are :help

by **sandokan** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:47 am

lack of ambition is obvious thing here for last 4 years. It will never change

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:51 am

leave out the bashing and this could be a good thread with good inputs :nod

by **kazza** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:51 am

s@int wrote:Our defenders have only managed one goal between them for example. While in midfield Masch, Alonso, Riera, Babel, Lucas and Benayoun only 5 between them.

Yes but that was not for a lack of trying as all those players have had countless chances that did not go in. Which means they are trying, and that shows ambition.

Inability to win is not the same as unwilling to win, which is the spirit of this thread.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:53 am

kazza wrote:
bigmick wrote:Anybody in any doubts about waht this bloke is all about, needs only to read his post in this thread. Failing that, they could go onto the Robbie keane thread and see his attempts to engage Stu in a row on the last page.

You always show up and gripe after a less than stellar performance, first it was rotation and now lack of ambition. You ARE like Stu in that you think you are cleverer than everyone else, which clearly you are not or you would be involved in football somehow rather than selling rubber dildos (no offence like). I disagreed with you now I am a stalker? And CIGGY backs you up so now it is true? I do not give two to$$es about whether you think I understand football or not or you think I stalk you ( ). Too many followerers on this forum!

I just thought of the stalker thing again and it is still funny.

Lately Bigmick you posts have tended to be complaining about one thing or another the manager did but then you add a disclaimer at the end that you like him. At least Stu has the balls to state what he states and not camoflage it (like your your digs at me).

( still funny )

Kazza, I think you need to take a step back mate. Its been looking a bit like a personal vendetta on your part for a while now. If you don't like Mick's posts, just avoid reading them.

The boards would be a bit quiet if the only people who posted were those involved in professional football mate.

Mick is one of the best posters on here, and I certainly think the site would be much poorer without him.

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:58 am

kazza wrote:
s@int wrote:Our defenders have only managed one goal between them for example. While in midfield Masch, Alonso, Riera, Babel, Lucas and Benayoun only 5 between them.

Yes but that was not for a lack of trying as all those players have had countless chances that did not go in. Which means they are trying, and that shows ambition.

Inability to win is not the same as unwilling to win, which is the spirit of this thread.

We need a smiley where the little bloke scratches his head. A minute ago you were telling us that in Rafa's teams the midfielders score all the goals, and now it's this.

I do agree with one bit though, inability to win isn't the same as unwilling to win, you're quite right. Unfortunately though, inability to win and unwillingness to win are not the same as lacking ambition, and therefoire your premise that this is the "spirit of this thread" is sadly wrong.

Willingness to LOSE is closer to the mark. Willingness to take a risk that you might lose the game, in order to give yourself the maximum chance to win the game is "the spirit of this thread".

It's all my own fault this, I was the one who told you to leave out the sly digs and actually post up stuff about football. What is it they say, don't wish too hard etc etc.

I can't work out whether you genuinely don't understand, or you're pretending you don't in order to provoke an argument. You really are very strange.

by **kazza** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:53 pm

s@int wrote:Kazza, I think you need to take a step back mate. Its been looking a bit like a personal vendetta on your part for a while now. If you don't like Mick's posts, just avoid reading them.

The thing is that when I read little (not so) hidden digs at me I respond.

I feel it is a fair question to ask "what do you do for a living" when the poster claims to always know what to do in any given managerial decision and quite happy to tell us. It may not be a dig at his footballing knowledge so much as it is a question as to why he would waste all that obvious talent.

:laugh:

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