Ambition.. - Do we show enough?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby taff » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:23 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Don't think we lack ambition personally , i just think we lack abit of expereince at being top of the league . The likes of the mancs and chelsea have been there seen it and done it . Where as we havent , and i think it's showing abit . It's all good stuff though , onwards we march .

That experience thing is very evident in the way we have been lately. I do think that if we win the league it will be floodgate opening time and the relief and removal of pressure will be huge contributions.

An analogy can be drawn against our CL experience where we fought and some could say were lucky to get to the final and then win it in 2005, but look at us now we wander around Europe fearing nobody
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Postby Emerald Red » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:28 pm

taff wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:Don't think we lack ambition personally , i just think we lack abit of expereince at being top of the league . The likes of the mancs and chelsea have been there seen it and done it . Where as we havent , and i think it's showing abit . It's all good stuff though , onwards we march .

That experience thing is very evident in the way we have been lately. I do think that if we win the league it will be floodgate opening time and the relief and removal of pressure will be huge contributions.

An analogy can be drawn against our CL experience where we fought and some could say were lucky to get to the final and then win it in 2005, but look at us now we wander around Europe fearing nobody

Exactly right, taff. Nail on the head there.
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Postby Number 9 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:40 pm

Emerald Red wrote:Simple as this: we're missing a link for the master plan, and that link is one Fernando Torres. It's not lack of ambition at all that we drew 4 of  or 5 last games. We're missing the sharp end of the spear. The one player to put the sh*ts up the opposition. If Torres had not got injured at all this season, we could be looking at an at least 6 or 7 point gap between us and Chelsea, and I dare anyone to argue with that.

See mate that does'nt wash with me.I'm not saying you are wrong,because you are probably right.
BUT..much as I hate them,injuries are a part of football and have to be taken on the chin.Other teams could say the same..its no excuse and it sure as hell wont be a comfort at the end of the season if we finish a few behind the winner.
Saying ah well..If we had Torres fit the first half of the season we'd have won wont make me feel any better!

Saying that if we can keep him fit when he comes back we may well be saying he was the difference in the second part of the campaign that actually won us the EPL!
I can dream!

As for the"do we lack ambition"?
I dont think so.The players and Rafa want it as bad as us.
Could we be more adventurous at times?Probably,yes.But that is Rafas way and all out attack mode can be suicide at times.I feel he'd have went for it more had Masch been fit and in there to break up their attacks,but we'll never know that now!
On yesterdays game though.I KNOW FOR A FACT that if we'd have went hell for leather all out attack and got caught on the break,ended up loosing 2-1,coming away with fuc'k all..Its a cast iron certainty in my mind that some of the ones on here moaning about"not going for it" would be saying.."Why the feck did we attack so much,sure you are always gonna get caught on the break with Arsenals pace and passing"
The fact is unless we take 3 points from EVERY match their will be moans!
Anyway..lacking ambition?.Not for me,nope.Lacking a good strike force,yes.Thats been our main problem.But Keane will come good and Nando will come back.Its simple if they dont we are fecked!

And Kazza you one man assault on big mick was uncalled for.You may not agree with everything he says,neither do I all the time.But the lad takes the time to explain himself more than most on here..no need for that he's not exactly Heimdall or Leg Barnes!

:laugh:
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:00 pm

think we all agree that we have sorely missed Torres, but with the money we have spent on forwards we should have better options than we have.

When Rafa arrived

Owen
Cisse
Baros
Pongole
Mellor
LeTallec

Bought by Rafa

Garcia
Morientes
Crouch
Fowler
Bellamy
Kuyt
Torres
Voronin
Babel
Ngog
Keane

17 FORWARDS IN 5 YEARS and we still look toothless without Torres.I realise some people have a problem with Owen both on and off the pitch, but if you needed a goal (and over the past few weeks we have) who's better at the price? There are better players, and there are players who would also give us an option B BUT CAN WE AFFORD THEM ?

In the meantime I think we have to show more ambition and attack more, with players taking more  risks to get the all important goal, then by all means shut up shop and hang on for dear life. I couldn't care less if we don't look the most gifted team as long as we are the most successful team. Sometimes we need to throw players forward, get players in the box and hope the ball drops to their feet.
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Postby Number 9 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:02 pm

s@int wrote:think we all agree that we have sorely missed Torres, but with the money we have spent on forwards we should have better options than we have.

When Rafa arrived

Owen
Cisse
Baros
Pongole
Mellor
LeTallec

Bought by Rafa

Garcia
Morientes
Crouch
Fowler
Bellamy
Kuyt
Torres
Voronin
Babel
Ngog
Keane

17 FORWARDS IN 5 YEARS and we still look toothless without Torres.I realise some people have a problem with Owen both on and off the pitch, but if you needed a goal (and over the past few weeks we have) who's better at the price? There are better players, and there are players who would also give us an option B BUT CAN WE AFFORD THEM ?

In the meantime I think we have to show more ambition and attack more, with players taking more  risks to get the all important goal, then by all means shut up shop and hang on for dear life. I couldn't care less if we don't look the most gifted team as long as we are the most successful team. Sometimes we need to throw players forward, get players in the box and hope the ball drops to their feet.

Your worst post ever! :angry:



Calling Voronin a forward..he's a backward mate! :D
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:07 pm

:laugh:
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Postby bigmick » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:13 pm

Turned into a good thread in the end this one. Copped a bit of abuse, the old means of earning a living reared it's head, my attitude f.ucking stank and all that but there you go. We did a bit a twoing and frowing about the definition of "ambition", and about the "willingness to lose" thing, and there were a couple of "I can't believe we're even talking about this's given we've done this or that"s, but between and betwixt all of that there were some good points.

For my part, perhaps "adventure" would probably have been a better word as someone suggested, equally it might have been better to talk of "willingness to RISK losing". "Ambition" though is the term which is always used in the last twenty minutes of football matches, "do such and such have the ambition to go on and win it etc etc". What commentators and pundits mean when they say this is are they prepared to really go for it, to sling men forward, to press the game, to push the fullbacks on, to leave strikers on, to possibly increase the number of strikers. That's what I meant too, although it is correct to point out that grammatically it doesn't really stack up. Most people got it though and it was a decent discussion.

To briefly go back to it (the discussion part), I worry about this tendency to bring Keane off all the time. I think most people would agree that he is almost certainly a better player as one of two rather than up on his own, so surely if we are pressing the game/showing "adventure" it would be an idea to introduce an extra striker alongside him and give him the opportunity to play as a two. If we are going to move Kuyt inside to "hold the ball up", why not leave Keane on and bring El Zahr on? Keane had definately quitened down in the second half, but that was mainly because (as someone mentioned in an excellent post earlier and I can't remember just now who it was) Arsenal sat a lot deeper once the sending off happened. He wasn't getting the space to work in behind like he had to good effect in the first half. He could though have played off Kuyt, and surely it must have been worth a stab for 15 miutes or so?

Going for such a move would almost certainly have meant taking Lucas off, which by definition would have slightly increased the risk of us losing I think. Worth the gamble though? I think it would be and was yes. Apart from anything else, it would at least have had the effect of allowing Keane to stay on the pitch for the full 90 minutes. We really are at some stage going to have to invest some thought at least into how we are going to man-manage him and rebuild his confidence.
Last edited by bigmick on Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:22 pm

I agree with much of what you are saying Mick just my personal preferance would have been to keep Riera on with ElZahr on the other flank and giving Babel and Keane the chance to create something up front.

A small change I know mate, but with 2 attacking wingers and two strikers for the last 20 mins or so we may just have snatched it.
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Postby Number 9 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:25 pm

Ambition (too me) would be playing this..Im not gonna show the defence becuase thats nothing to do with going for it,or ambition! :D

           Gerrard   Masherano   Alonso  Riera

                       Keane     Torres

I'd beg Rafa if I ever met the man to play this! :D
I want that team picked and stuck with as soon as Nando is back,in every EPL match,home or away against UTD or WBA!
But Gerrard does'nt wanna play there and Rafa wont stick with 4-4-2,its just the way things are.

At the end of the day..Gerrard is one of the best players around and if he feels he's more effective in the centre so be it..But my opinion is its very selfish of him.
And Rafa will always chop and change formations..thats just the way he is.I can see his logic in most tactical setups of the team,but still feel sticking with 4-4-2 and "letting them worry about us" is the way to go..WONT HAPPEN THOUGH!
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Postby Madmax » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:30 pm

Number 9 wrote:Ambition (too me) would be playing this..Im not gonna show the defence becuase thats nothing to do with going for it,or ambition! :D

           Gerrard   Masherano   Alonso  Riera

                       Keane     Torres

I'd beg Rafa if I ever met the man to play this! :D
I want that team picked and stuck with as soon as Nando is back,in every EPL match,home or away against UTD or WBA!
But Gerrard does'nt wanna play there and Rafa wont stick with 4-4-2,its just the way things are.

At the end of the day..Gerrard is one of the best players around and if he feels he's more effective in the centre so be it..But my opinion is its very selfish of him.
And Rafa will always chop and change formations..thats just the way he is.I can see his logic in most tactical setups of the team,but still feel sticking with 4-4-2 and "letting them worry about us" is the way to go..WONT HAPPEN THOUGH!

would go with that aswel 4 defos..
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Postby bigmick » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:30 pm

s@int wrote:I agree with much of what you are saying Mick just my personal preferance would have been to keep Riera on with ElZahr on the other flank and giving Babel and Keane the chance to create something up front.

A small change I know mate, but with 2 attacking wingers and two strikers for the last 20 mins or so we may just have snatched it.

Ah yes don't misunderstand me S@int, as I've said a few times I'm no lover of Kuyt up front as I think he's awful there. He probably is the only player we had available though who could perform the "hold the ball up" role, and if the management decreed that that was the way they wanted to play, I'd leave Keane up alongside him.

As it is, they pull Keane off and move Kuyt inside to "hold the ball up" presumeably for Gerrard to profit from. I think it was worth though the adventurous/ambitious move of leaving Keane in there, so you have potential recipients, and also the option of playing the ball through on the deck as well.

As for Babel, between him and his attitude and us and the way we've utilised him, the player looks ruined to me. Some will say he was never good enough, the Babelians will say he was never given an opportunity, but choose whoevers fault itis we are best off getting rid. He is currently a waste of space, and the policy of buying a young cente forward for 11 million quid and then playing him left wing if at all, can now be marked down in the "not a roaring success" column I think.
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Postby bigmick » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:31 pm

Number 9 wrote:Ambition (too me) would be playing this..Im not gonna show the defence becuase thats nothing to do with going for it,or ambition! :D

           Gerrard   Masherano   Alonso  Riera

                       Keane     Torres

I'd beg Rafa if I ever met the man to play this! :D
I want that team picked and stuck with as soon as Nando is back,in every EPL match,home or away against UTD or WBA!
But Gerrard does'nt wanna play there and Rafa wont stick with 4-4-2,its just the way things are.

At the end of the day..Gerrard is one of the best players around and if he feels he's more effective in the centre so be it..But my opinion is its very selfish of him.
And Rafa will always chop and change formations..thats just the way he is.I can see his logic in most tactical setups of the team,but still feel sticking with 4-4-2 and "letting them worry about us" is the way to go..WONT HAPPEN THOUGH!

Absolutely 100% agree with every word of that post.
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Postby aCe' » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:46 pm

bigmick wrote:Turned into a good thread in the end this one. Copped a bit of abuse, the old means of earning a living reared it's head, my attitude f.ucking stank and all that but there you go. We did a bit a twoing and frowing about the definition of "ambition", and about the "willingness to lose" thing, and there were a couple of "I can't believe we're even talking about this's given we've done this or that"s, but between and betwixt all of that there were some good points.

For my part, perhaps "adventure" would probably have been a better word as someone suggested, equally it might have been better to talk of "willingness to RISK losing". "Ambition" though is the term which is always used in the last twenty minutes of football matches, "do such and such have the ambition to go on and win it etc etc". What commentators and pundits mean when they say this is are they prepared to really go for it, to sling men forward, to press the game, to push the fullbacks on, to leave strikers on, to possibly increase the number of strikers. That's what I meant too, although it is correct to point out that grammatically it doesn't really stack up. Most people got it though and it was a decent discussion.

To briefly go back to it (the discussion part), I worry about this tendency to bring Keane off all the time. I think most people would agree that he is almost certainly a better player as one of two rather than up on his own, so surely if we are pressing the game/showing "adventure" it would be an idea to introduce an extra striker alongside him and give him the opportunity to play as a two. If we are going to move Kuyt inside to "hold the ball up", why not leave Keane on and bring El Zahr on? Keane had definately quitened down in the second half, but that was mainly because (as someone mentioned in an excellent post earlier and I can't remember just now who it was) Arsenal sat a lot deeper once the sending off happened. He wasn't getting the space to work in behind like he had to good effect in the first half. He could though have played off Kuyt, and surely it must have been worth a stab for 15 miutes or so?

Going for such a move would almost certainly have meant taking Lucas off, which by definition would have slightly increased the risk of us losing I think. Worth the gamble though? I think it would be and was yes. Apart from anything else, it would at least have had the effect of allowing Keane to stay on the pitch for the full 90 minutes. We really are at some stage going to have to invest some thought at least into how we are going to man-manage him and rebuild his confidence.

good post..

about the game... Keane's substitution was absolutely uncalled for... with Arsenal down to 10 men and playing deeper i thought we should have gone for 4 in midfield and 2 upfront.. hardly all out attack or a risky setup id think..
Alonso and Lucas were finding it hard to influence the game from the middle of the park.. both seem to favor passing the ball as soon tas they get it rather than take a few steps forward or make a run through the middle or anything.. just get it and either hit it long or to the side... Agger made a couple of runs through the middle and looked dangerous in both runs and i thought we'd take lucas off and have gerrard in the middle carrying the ball forward through the middle of the park and just trying to influence the game a bit more... we had to stretch it a bit it was a scrappy old game make no mistake about it but it suited Arsenal with them being a player down...

overall.. poor subs that more likely than not cost us 2 points
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Postby JoeTerp » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:51 pm

bigmick wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Ambition (too me) would be playing this..Im not gonna show the defence becuase thats nothing to do with going for it,or ambition! :D

           Gerrard   Masherano   Alonso  Riera

                       Keane     Torres

I'd beg Rafa if I ever met the man to play this! :D
I want that team picked and stuck with as soon as Nando is back,

Absolutely 100% agree with every word of that post.

me too
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Postby roberto green » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:23 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Ambition (too me) would be playing this..Im not gonna show the defence becuase thats nothing to do with going for it,or ambition! :D

           Gerrard   Masherano   Alonso  Riera

                       Keane     Torres

I'd beg Rafa if I ever met the man to play this! :D
I want that team picked and stuck with as soon as Nando is back,

Absolutely 100% agree with every word of that post.

me too

and me :D
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