Liverpool FC Forum

[kazza]

We need a smiley where the little bloke scratches his head. A minute ago you were telling us that in Rafa's teams the midfielders score all the goals, and now it's this.

"KNEE JERK REACTION!!

This thread is not a surprise at all, we must have no ambition at all because we only managed a draw at the Emirates (even though the thread starter said a draw would be good result before the game). Shocking!

We were lookin good for the win until they went down to ten men and defended. In fact Arsenal had a couple of chances on the counter as we were pushing up the field looking for the winner. That does not seem like no ambition. Ambition is how you play and not whether you agree with the substitutions or not. Wenger is the one that should have gambled for the win as they needed the points much more than we did. Wenger is bitter and he can say what he wants does not mean sh1t.

Kuyte was holding the ball up much better than Keane and was a better choice up top in order to get the midfielders into the play. Raffa's sides always score more goals from midfield. I am surprised that with your excessive knowledge about football you did not spot it Mick. You never seem happy with Raffa as a manager Mick no need to disguise it, why not just come out and say what you feel instead of the typical "I am not saying Raffa is a bad manager but he is cr@p"or words to that effect."

******************
Now where exactly did I say that the midfielders score ALL the goals? I can't find it so yeah I do need help.

[akumaface]

Is it lack of ambition? Or is it "Ïf you cant win, dont lose"mentality? From Rafa.

I think its the latter, strangeling the life out of the other team, we are very hard to beat first and foremost rather than going for the kill.  We dont seem to have that mentality for killing games off.

If we had beat Fulham, West Ham, Stoke then a point at the Emirates would seem like a fantastic result but it doesnt because of them stupid draws, I hate them draws against the dross they really fuckin piss me off.
Because we should easily beat these teams, and I fear them points dropped will come back to haunt us like they have done in the past.

We had 13 draws last season and 5 up till now, how many more times will we draw again this season?
Is the reason playing two holding midfielders at home?
When we should be going all out for a win with 4-4-2 formation?

We where playing great attacking football until we got beat by Spurs then we resorted back to the old boring formation where you think where are the goals going to come from?

I just wish that rafa would be less cautious at times, Sammy Lee said after the game yesterday rafa was delighted with the result and spoke to the players on the phone congratulating them.

I would have taken a point before kick off but they where there for the taking and we didnt take our chances and this is what hurts, we continue to rely on Gerrard to get us out of the sh!t when others should be trying harder, Ive got no complaints about Robbie keane he played well yesterday but was isolated and didnt get much service again.

Until torres is back this issue needs addressing we have to have a Plan B, we need goals Rafa changed his methods to fit in around Torres and he has paid 20 million for Keane so the methods have to be changed again to get the best out of him.

We need to be more offensive and stop being so cautious, stop worrying about what others are going to do and just play our own game.

Dont get me wrong I am delighted we are top of the league whilst missing Torres, Aurelio and Skrtel, but I am just terrified that we lose the league ourselves if we dont win it we only have ourselves to blame and not the others playing better than us.

Totally agree as this is exactly what I thought. Getting a draw against Arsenal is fine if we had already taken points from Hull and the lesser like. But we drawed instead of win against those team. And we weren't exactly going for draw when both side were still have 11 men. Why we fall back right after the sent off really puzzle me....I think it is fine that Babel was the first one coming of the bench but not by taking Keane off....At least left him in there to push for 10 more minutes before deciding to fold and salvage for a point. At that time, Lucas was useless as we have a man advantage. Anyway, I'm trying to bash Rafa but I'm wondering his sub decision. Is really El zhar and babel the best we can do? Is rafa not giving chance to other more appropriate choices at that moment. I think if Rafa wanted to win the title, he needs to put aside his personal differences with the players such as Pennant as I think he would excel from a game against Arsenal.

Anyway, still disappointed about last night game and tonight, I need to cheer for Everton for the first time.

[Ace Ventura]

I think there was a bit of a lack of ambition on Rafas part and there has been in the past as well.
We do at times seem to prefer not to lose than try to win.
I think that is evident in the amount of games that we drew last season.
Having said that - so far this we have tried to more ambitious at times, city away springs to mind.
Obviously losing our star striker has left us with a huge void, thats more of a reason as to why we havent turned some of the draws into wins imo.

[kazza]

I think there was a bit of a lack of ambition on Rafas part and there has been in the past as well.
We do at times seem to prefer not to lose than try to win.
I think that is evident in the amount of games that we drew last season.
Having said that - so far this we have tried to more ambitious at times, city away springs to mind.
Obviously losing our star striker has left us with a huge void, thats more of a reason as to why we havent turned some of the draws into wins imo.

Having Torres out is the main reason why we have drawn the last few matches. It has nothing to do with lack of ambition. "Torres injured" does not make as sexy a thread.

[taff]

We looked more likely to win it but it didnt go our way, we had no other options than the ones that were used.  I wanted Keane to stay on but he was fading due to the work he had done during the game so I cant see that decision as a lack of ambition just what Rafa thought was the best decision to win the game.  We did create chances or half chances.

I agree with akumaface in that the previous games have made us desperate for a result at the Emirates.  But just repeat that.  We cannot go to the emirates demanding an away win just demanding a good performance and that we did get.  Maybe the ambition thing should have been written after West Ham or Hull but in the context of yesterdays game I am neither happy or unhappy.

We should stick to discussing the football elements in these threads as much as is possible as there is point gaining on both sides.  Now in a football contrext Rafa got it mostly right yesterday and virtually ended Arsenals title hopes while gaining a point.  Now regardless of the Chelsea result we now blatantly have to win our next game for our own confidence and for the title challenge so its a good point at the emirates and a win instead of two games lost points etc etc.

[Owzat]

I don't believe Rafa lacks ambition, I just don't think he's worked out how to realise it in the Premiership as he did with Valencia. It's a totally different league and maybe the holding midfielder and loan striker etc works best in that league and in this league you need to be more adventurous (as opposed to ambitious)

Maybe it isn't a lack of ambition, but a weakness in the transfer market and the players not living up to how Rafa wants them to be. I find the substitutions worrying because they're predictable, rarely change anything and often a bit late in the game. How many minutes did we play against ten men before Rafa brought on N'Gog? He took our sole striker off long before, the point of changing the players is to change the way the game is going and most of Rafa's substitutions don't achieve that. Week in, week out we see Babel on for Riera. That isn't "lack of ambition", that's just Rafa thinking Babel will do something we all know he can't or won't. Bringing on Lucas for Mascherano late in a game is not just a lack of ambition, but a lack of sense as well. How is one midfielder who can't command a regular starting place going to change the game other than offer a bit more of an all-round midfielder?

I can't see Rafa changing his approach in a hurry, not even if the boot is in the pipeline. He'll continue buying players to fit how he thinks we should play, the problem is we get off to a good start or into a good position, but lack the killer touch to win the 27 games I continually mention these days which could win the title. Whether our attempts to grind out wins will achieve enough is another matter, yes we've picked up 7 points from 9 against big four rivals but we've undone that by dropping EIGHT against Hull, Stoke, West Ham and Fulham at home. I think the mancs won SEVENTEEN at home last season, an unrelenting ability to win games every other week at their fortress. We can go long unbeaten, but not convert enough draws to wins. That's what is keeping Chelsea and the mancs well in the title race, the fact that the bread and butter points are against the other 16 teams and most of those have our measure. People keep on about being top, but the fact is that our poor performances were always a worry and bound to catch up with us as it has.

Lack of ambition? no. Lack of quality? probably. Lack of a manager with the wherewithall to adapt, tactical nous, innovation and transfer acumen? almost certainly

[Ola Mr Benitez]

I think some people are losing the meaning of "lack of ambition".  The way I read it is when you are given an oppourtunity you need to take it.. right?

On Sunday I think our team was set up perfectly to play Arsenal at the Emerates, the problem for me was the fact that when the shape of the game changed because of the injury to Fabregas and then when Adbayor was sent off we did not react in a positive way.

I would have taken Lucas off and brought El Zhar on and thrown  Kuyt up fromt with Keane.  Doin this would have meant we could continue to push their full backs back and increase the pressure we hard higher up the pitch.

We showed no ambition in the last 30 minutes because we didnt take the oppourtunity to make a positive change to our team and our tactics.  Taking Keane off was a rediculous decision (unless he was injured??)

A point at the Emirates is a good point, but when you take into consideration all the facts about the game you must feel a little let down that we didnt step it up and make someting happen.

[tonyeh]

Week in, week out we see Babel on for Riera. That isn't "lack of ambition", that's just Rafa thinking Babel will do something we all know he can't or won't.

But how can Rafa think that? That's what worries me.

Now, I know I'm just some sap at home on the couch watching matches. I'm not at training every couple of days...but...in-game, his management of Ryan Babel has been nothing short of ridiculous. Likewise, his management of Keane has been pretty shoddy too and I think it's down to Rafa to a very large degree that these players are not performing to the standards their initial promise suggested.

I dont' know if Rafa sees Ryan in training and goes, "hmmm...he looks good as a left midfield", because I know I'm going "FFS why the hell does Rafa continually sub Riera for Babel around the same mark, because he's no replacement."

Likewise, with Keane...I mean really, what the hell is up with that? Can anyone figure that out? Keane saved the match last night and STILL could stay on the pitch for 90 minutes.

Ray Houghton last night said he was flabbergasted that keane was again taken off, while "the likes of" Kuyt was left on. John Giles said pretty much the same.

The same pointless subs again and again...

[andy_g]

may i be among the first to offer to withdraw all my opinions, past present and future, on how we might play better or what i would do if i was the manager. i am, have never been, and will never be involved in football at any level higher than reserve goalie in the school team.

[Sabre]

may i be among the first to offer to withdraw all my opinions, past present and future, on how we might play better or what i would do if i was the manager. i am, have never been, and will never be involved in football at any level higher than reserve goalie in the school team.

Not ambitious enough. I was regular starter in my school's team.

It was the "B" team, but better a regular starter of the B team than a reserve goalie of the first team. Pah.

[Leonmc0708]

Our defenders have only managed one goal between them for example. While in midfield Masch, Alonso, Riera, Babel, Lucas and Benayoun only 5 between them.

Yes but that was not for a lack of trying as all those players have had countless chances that did not go in. Which means they are trying, and that shows ambition.

Inability to win is not the same as unwilling to win, which is the spirit of this thread.

We need a smiley where the little bloke scratches his head. A minute ago you were telling us that in Rafa's teams the midfielders score all the goals, and now it's this.

I do agree with one bit though, inability to win isn't the same as unwilling to win, you're quite right. Unfortunately though, inability to win and unwillingness to win are not the same as lacking ambition, and therefoire your premise that this is the "spirit of this thread" is sadly wrong.

Willingness to LOSE is closer to the mark. Willingness to take a risk that you might lose the game, in order to give yourself the maximum chance to win the game is "the spirit of this thread".

It's all my own fault this, I was the one who told you to leave out the sly digs and actually post up stuff about football. What is it they say, don't wish too hard etc etc.

I can't work out whether you genuinely don't understand, or you're pretending you don't in order to provoke an argument. You really are very strange.

I disagree, I think the willingness to lose is blind ambition, and this kind of thing is simply wreckless.

Ambitition:

1. an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment: Too much ambition caused him to be disliked by his colleagues. 
2. the object, state, or result desired or sought after: The crown was his ambition. 
3. desire for work or activity; energy: I awoke feeling tired and utterly lacking in ambition. 


Nothing in the dictionary abbout recklessness.

Being ambitious does not necessarily mean knowing when and how to attempt to attain it/them.

Are we ambitious ? Without doubt. Are we wreckless in our ambitions ? No. Are we sometimes cautious and afraid to lose ? Yes, probably. But in the same way that a win and a defeat is better than two draws, the draw is better than the defeat everyday of the week.

Quite how these questions can be raised after we go to (according to some members on here at least) the best footballing team managed by the best manager in the World and attack them and have the best chances to in the game, before and after the sending off galvanised them is beyond me.

[slickrick]

this mite be a bit off topic but its just a point to back up the fact we're missing that extra bit of skill and class in the final third of the field! i just watched the game again and after equalising we had a great chance to go 2-1 up when kuyt layed the ball across the face of the goal for gerrard to knock in! it was because kuyt gave him a bad ball that gerrard had to slide in rather than being able to just go and knock it in! i feel someone with the extra bit of class about them would have laid that ball on perfectly for gerrard to knock in! its little things like this that cost you 3 points not lack of ambition! i feel although this is our best chance in along time to win the league we will just fall short as the lack of creativity is killing us! if anyone wants to slate me for this post feel free!

[The Specialist]

Initially, I would of agreed with the person making this thread. During, and immediately after the Arsenal match all I could think of was "Why aren't we going for the win? They are there for the taking. I can't believe we are playing it safe, waiting until the final 4 minutes to try and edge this." Even the commentators calling the game had the same opinion..

After taking a bit to think things over, though, I've come to realize that there wasn't much wrong with the Arsenal game (Other than Lucas stayed on the pitch). Our record against the top 3 this year is excellent - 7 from 9 points played. With us taking 4 from 6 points away from home.  Can anyone honestly turn their nose at this? If you do, it's a joke. Given our record against the top 3 since Rafa has been here, it's seriously a joke.

If we manage to keep the same type of record against these teams in the second half of the year, I would say there's a damn good chance we will be champions. As for Wenger commenting on how we were scared, he is just talking nonsense. His team is well behind the leaders, and he is bitter they couldn't make up any ground. Us going all out for the win after they went down to ten men could of seen us up the chance of getting maximum points, but it could of seen Arsenal sneak a win as well.. 

The problem with the Arsenal match as I see it? Well, it's the same problem we've been having all season more or less. We''ve strugled to break teams down. Well organized teams who park the bus, or teams that look to play us on the counter. We lack pace, trickery down the wings...and our strikers are at times isolated. Going deep into midfield sometimes to even get a touch of the ball, or when having the ball come to them...having to get past 2-3 defenders.   

Could this problem be solved by being a bit more ambitious? Playing more attack-minded players, having them on the pitch for more minutes? Possibly. I think to a greater effect, though, the problem is not the number of attackers we have playing - but who the players are. Either players not taking their chances, or players failing to contribute anything worthwhile to the team.

I know throwing money at the problem has been done before, but really - we have some players who aren't good enough and we need a better "Plan B" than throwing on NGOG and El Zhar. From what I have seen, almost everyone agrees with this atleast. Some like El Zhar, but personally...I don't think he's exactly a super-sub.

[Madmax]

I feel our team set up was fine and we should have probably won with that team line up. Especially considering the circumstances when addy was sent of and fabregas injured we really should have beaten then. We showed no ambition in the last quarter of the match due to not taking the opportunity to make a positive change to the team and our tactics. Taking keane off was a silly decision. why? makes no sense
A point was decent but i really feel we should have won the match considering how arsenal ended up. If the mancs and chelsea were in that situation they would have gone for the kill.

[Avi Cohen]

I read somewhere that Rafa reckons we need other teams to mess up if Liverpool are to win the league. This happened, he said, when he won La Liga - both Barcelona and Real were going through a transitional period.

I don't like his philosophy and I don't like the way he wants the game played. Some people here just want to see the league brought home. If we win the league this season, we will go down as the worst team to ever win the league.