Liverpool FC Forum

by **dawson99** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:55 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:1) should taxes be used for religious education?

2) your right to smoke VS my right to breathe.

3) should religious people attempt to convert others to their faith?

1: Yes, if it is done across the board, all religions, alls chools, all faiths.

2: My right to smoke should win. I pay so much more in taxes. Smoking outside. Obviously should be allowed. And if a landlord owns a pub and wants to let people smoke in it, he should be allowed to do so. Don't show me figures of how much it costs hospitals per year for tobacco related deseases... i still say cars have a lot to do with it as well. If around 10 million smoke... lets say 15 a day. £4.50 a pack of 20... 273 packs each a year. avg 1228.5 per person per year... now times that by 10 million. Say half of it is tax, thats 6114.25 i pay in tax a year, as do my 10 million other smokers. So yeah, let me the fukk smoke.

3: dont care anymore, i need a cig

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:30 pm

1) Your kidding right. I hate taxes and religion.

2) I am very very very much AGAINST smoking bans. I do not smoke, but I don't think the government has the right to tell business how they should operate. The market will naturally provide resturants with no smoking allowed or with smoking sections. Even if your some big government type, I can't see why you would be against establishments applying for smoking permits.

3) as long as they respect me (and others) when I tell them that I am not interested.

by **Emerald Red** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:33 pm

SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

by **SupitsJonF** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

I'm not saying religion is awful, they should continue to go to sunday school, hebrew school, etc. But taxes should not pay for a catholic school, a jewish school, a muslim school, etc. If people want religion/private based schools, they should shell out the extra cash.

by **Emerald Red** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:10 pm

SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

I'm not saying religion is awful, they should continue to go to sunday school, hebrew school, etc. But taxes should not pay for a catholic school, a jewish school, a muslim school, etc. If people want religion/private based schools, they should shell out the extra cash.

Isn't that why the Catholic church and other religions rely on their own funding? Either way, taxes fund schooling, and religion is taught in most schools as a subject. Should it be pulled out of the system altogether? Absolutely not. Religion is part of history, and vice versa. In either case, it should be there as someone's choice.

by **Sabre** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:21 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

Good point. I studied in a catholic church, a La Salle priest church.

I cannot say I was brainwashed myself, in fact, I'd say that the most anti-church guys I know all studied in catholic schools.

No, as much as they want to teach you some values, at the end you're the one who accept or reject those. For instance my school was quite basque nationalist, and I never was one. IMHO it's difficult to understand History if you don't study about religion.

School education is overrated. Some parents seem to think that school must do all work for them. So I send them to a good school, with the values I like, and I expect my children to grow up as I'd love? No. You can't put all the education job in the school, as parents you have a lot to do in that front. And if you don't do the homework there, then you can't really expect the school will make it for you.

by **SupitsJonF** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:49 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

I'm not saying religion is awful, they should continue to go to sunday school, hebrew school, etc. But taxes should not pay for a catholic school, a jewish school, a muslim school, etc. If people want religion/private based schools, they should shell out the extra cash.

Isn't that why the Catholic church and other religions rely on their own funding? Either way, taxes fund schooling, and religion is taught in most schools as a subject. Should it be pulled out of the system altogether? Absolutely not. Religion is part of history, and vice versa. In either case, it should be there as someone's choice.

But if you tax it its not someones choice. A vast majority of people go to public schools opposed to religious schools, so should the majority of people have to pay more taxes just for another choice, even though there is a high probability they won't even use this choice the slightest bit?

Also, I think being civilized plays a huge part in morals. Otherwise that would be like saying if someone is brought up atheist they would'nt have morals. But being civilized as a human also gives us morals. I believe both play a part.

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:13 am

SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

I'm not saying religion is awful, they should continue to go to sunday school, hebrew school, etc. But taxes should not pay for a catholic school, a jewish school, a muslim school, etc. If people want religion/private based schools, they should shell out the extra cash.

Isn't that why the Catholic church and other religions rely on their own funding? Either way, taxes fund schooling, and religion is taught in most schools as a subject. Should it be pulled out of the system altogether? Absolutely not. Religion is part of history, and vice versa. In either case, it should be there as someone's choice.

But if you tax it its not someones choice. A vast majority of people go to public schools opposed to religious schools, so should the majority of people have to pay more taxes just for another choice, even though there is a high probability they won't even use this choice the slightest bit?

Also, I think being civilized plays a huge part in morals. Otherwise that would be like saying if someone is brought up atheist they would'nt have morals. But being civilized as a human also gives us morals. I believe both play a part.

Civilized, as in civilization? The vast majority of what you see around you was built off the foundations of some kind of religion. Morality was born out of the simple concept of recognizing what is right and what is wrong, although that can be skewed as to the eye of the beholder. One man's wrong is another's right etc etc. It can be opinion, but I think you'll agree that most of us are familiar of what the concept of evil is; an idea born out of most religions as most religions speak of it. It's just something that's been filtered down through generations of so called "civilization", because I'm sure at one point there were members of your distant family tree that practiced a religion even if you don't yourself. It's like a trait being handed down from generation to generation. However, I'd like to see how "civilized" people are when the simple comforts of life and all that they take for granted are put under threat or taken away from them. No amount of religion can prevent the anarchy that would result in such a thing happening, and in some cases in the world, no amount of anarchy can prevent religion from taking a hold on things. A person without fear derived from their religion can be a very powerful and often very dangerous thing as we all know.

As for the choice of religion being practiced in school at the expense of the tax payer, well, it's food for thought knowing that in most countries around the world, religion is practiced by the vast majority of it's inhabitants. There's nothing much anyone can really do about that so long as "civilization" exists.

by **SupitsJonF** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:21 am

You make a lot of fair points, but I think this is one issue we have different opinions on. I don't mind if there are classes taught in school about religion, as long as it isn't teaching/preaching that religion. That I think is for the actual religion to do, and their own schooling. And I'm pretty sure all the public school kids won't go shooting people for their food, so I think we will all be ok

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:21 am

maypaxvobiscum wrote:seeing how everyone is sensibly putting their opinions across and no one is name-calling or abusing...i thought maybe we could have another debate that MIGHT become controversial depending on the examples used to put points across. but of course if it crosses the line then the thread would be locked. so the topics are:

1) should we continue to prosecute Nazi war criminals for crimes they committed decades ago?

2) should prostitution be legalised ? do the benefits of legalisation or decriminalization outweigh the possible dangers? IMO, one way to see it is that it would reduce the chances of your wife/daughter being rape. like..the prostitutes would do us a societal favour.

3) should sex offenders be publicly named? should they be chemically castrated as a punishment too?

So what happens to the thousands of underage prostitutes?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:26 am

SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

I'm not saying religion is awful, they should continue to go to sunday school, hebrew school, etc. But taxes should not pay for a catholic school, a jewish school, a muslim school, etc. If people want religion/private based schools, they should shell out the extra cash.

Isn't that why the Catholic church and other religions rely on their own funding? Either way, taxes fund schooling, and religion is taught in most schools as a subject. Should it be pulled out of the system altogether? Absolutely not. Religion is part of history, and vice versa. In either case, it should be there as someone's choice.

But if you tax it its not someones choice. A vast majority of people go to public schools opposed to religious schools, so should the majority of people have to pay more taxes just for another choice, even though there is a high probability they won't even use this choice the slightest bit?

Also, I think being civilized plays a huge part in morals. Otherwise that would be like saying if someone is brought up atheist they would'nt have morals. But being civilized as a human also gives us morals. I believe both play a part.

With all due respect, if you wish to live in a Christian Country, you will pay taxes towards the upkeep and longevity of that religion, whether you believe in it or not.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:12 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:seeing how everyone is sensibly putting their opinions across and no one is name-calling or abusing...i thought maybe we could have another debate that MIGHT become controversial depending on the examples used to put points across. but of course if it crosses the line then the thread would be locked. so the topics are:

1) should we continue to prosecute Nazi war criminals for crimes they committed decades ago?

2) should prostitution be legalised ? do the benefits of legalisation or decriminalization outweigh the possible dangers? IMO, one way to see it is that it would reduce the chances of your wife/daughter being rape. like..the prostitutes would do us a societal favour.

3) should sex offenders be publicly named? should they be chemically castrated as a punishment too?

So what happens to the thousands of underage prostitutes?

they would be

1) free of their slavery
2) back to school
3) seeking help to get back into the workforce and society
4) listed in some blackmarket by some sicko pimp
5) wait for a couple of years before becoming a legit hooker.

by **SupitsJonF** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:33 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:1.) Fuck no. Separation of church and state. If im going to pay for education I'll pay for it where its not a brainwashing school.

Good and evil. Right and wrong.

Moral example:

A poor man walks across the street where he shoots an old woman in the face and then steals her money. That's evil, right? Or is it just basic survival?

You tell me. If you think it's evil, then where do you think this moral feeling comes from? If you are familiar with the concept of evil, then you are familiar with the concept of religion.

Should these moral examples be taught to children, and adults alike, to better their character if possible? I say yes. What do you think? The concept of forgiveness, well, that's another complex matter that religion helps us to deal with. I wouldn't exactly call these qualities in a person "brainwashed", would you?

I'm not saying religion is awful, they should continue to go to sunday school, hebrew school, etc. But taxes should not pay for a catholic school, a jewish school, a muslim school, etc. If people want religion/private based schools, they should shell out the extra cash.

Isn't that why the Catholic church and other religions rely on their own funding? Either way, taxes fund schooling, and religion is taught in most schools as a subject. Should it be pulled out of the system altogether? Absolutely not. Religion is part of history, and vice versa. In either case, it should be there as someone's choice.

But if you tax it its not someones choice. A vast majority of people go to public schools opposed to religious schools, so should the majority of people have to pay more taxes just for another choice, even though there is a high probability they won't even use this choice the slightest bit?

Also, I think being civilized plays a huge part in morals. Otherwise that would be like saying if someone is brought up atheist they would'nt have morals. But being civilized as a human also gives us morals. I believe both play a part.

With all due respect, if you wish to live in a Christian Country, you will pay taxes towards the upkeep and longevity of that religion, whether you believe in it or not.

And what would be a list of countries, by religion?

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:00 pm

Ireland? im unsure of this, maybe MH can elaborate but seeing how religious the muslims are, im sure in countries like Saudi Arabia, that is being exercised.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:25 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:seeing how everyone is sensibly putting their opinions across and no one is name-calling or abusing...i thought maybe we could have another debate that MIGHT become controversial depending on the examples used to put points across. but of course if it crosses the line then the thread would be locked. so the topics are:

1) should we continue to prosecute Nazi war criminals for crimes they committed decades ago?

2) should prostitution be legalised ? do the benefits of legalisation or decriminalization outweigh the possible dangers? IMO, one way to see it is that it would reduce the chances of your wife/daughter being rape. like..the prostitutes would do us a societal favour.

3) should sex offenders be publicly named? should they be chemically castrated as a punishment too?

So what happens to the thousands of underage prostitutes?

they would be

1) free of their slavery
2) back to school
3) seeking help to get back into the workforce and society
4) listed in some blackmarket by some sicko pimp
5) wait for a couple of years before becoming a legit hooker.

1. You will never stop the criminal element. If you legalise prostitution for over 18's, there will still be a market for nonces. They will simply continue as they are doing.

Regarding your last point - are you serious? A solution to the problem of underage prostitution - carry on until it's legal? DO you think they WANT to be there?

I have to say I'm struggling to see the positives...

To my mind, it's sick in the least.

Liverpool FC Forum

Debate - Sensibly

Who is online