How long as he got? - AKA "Rafa's Last Chance" thread

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby account deleted by request » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:31 pm

I don't want to p!ss on your chips Mick but as we played 4-4-2 in 3 out of our last 4 league games last season including our final game at Spurs what makes you think he will stick with 4-2-3-1 next season? Especially if we buy Keane which seems almost a certainty now.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:47 pm

s@int wrote:I don't want to p!ss on your chips Mick but as we played 4-4-2 in 3 out of our last 4 league games last season including our final game at Spurs what makes you think he will stick with 4-2-3-1 next season? Especially if we buy Keane which seems almost a certainty now.

Agreed saint , i think micks going to be a teensy weensy bit disappointed when Rafa starts rotating next season , because he has always done it ,he always will do it . I'm afraid mick it's part of his footballing philosiphy. Now what i'm hopeing is he sticks more or less to a system ,pick whichever one you want and stick to it .

I have a feeling and i don't know why ,that he's going to play 3 at the back for alot of games next season . Maybe because he's played it a few times during pre-season , just abit of a feeling really .
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Postby bigmick » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:49 pm

No I don't think he will play a 4-5-1 in the same way we played it last season Saint. Certainly if we pay 20 mill for Keane then he has to play, and it'll be much more of a 4-4-2. No my point wasn't that we'd stick to same method, but more that we proved once and for all that whatever method you settle on, if you broadly stick with it you'll improve as a unit. Now broadly sticking with it doesn't of course mean you play the same team in every single game, bit it does mean you have a a structure, a framework within which you usually play. It doesn't even mean that you are not allowed to go for a surprising selection now and then, a 4-5-1 away to Man Utd for instance, or a 3-5-2 at home to Hull, but it does mean that you have a method, a core first tream which you revert to on most occasions.

Last season Rafa did what all good managers do, he made the best of what he had at his disposal. He had strikers which wern't up to it in one case and aren't up to it in another, and found a use for them. He had wide midfielders who aren't up to it in two cases, and are up to it but can't be bothered in another so he replaced them. It was a classic example of how best to utilize the meagre resources at your disposal. Unfortunately of course he signed almost all of them, but no matter thats not the point oin this occasion.

Now although the continuity, reduction in rotation etc did help, the 4-5-1 did prove limited against stubborn defences, and against top quality teams who were able to isolate Gerrard and Torres from the rest of the team. Because of this, and also because he has to get some cover for the star striker he's going for Keane (at least thats how I see it anyway) and we'll play 4-4-2. As I've often said though mate, I don't really care who he thinks his best team is, where he plays the players (obviously though within reasin, not Crouch or Gerrard on the left wing) as long as he gives whatever selection he goes for a decent chance to work. Had we tried the 4-5-1 in the first couple of months of the season last term, not only would we never have found out whether it'd work, we'd probably never have remembered that we actually tried it such were the frequency of the changes to the team. In actual fact, for all I know we probably did try it and I've forgotten all about it     :D
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Postby LFC2007 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:50 pm

s@int wrote:If you had asked people early last season, I think you would have found that most of them thought we had a midfield that in all likelyhood would be around for years too! New contracts handed out, future assured......and then....

Sissoko gone, Alonso( ?), and Gerrard now a second striker, or if Keane and Barry do come..... WHAT(?)

Fair point, it's my feeling though that Mascherano has demonstrated a level of consistency, quality and desire in his performances which suggests he will stay at the club for a long time. Lucas is questionable as he's still very young and has a lot of work to do. Alonso may yet stay, but if Barry replaced him I wouldn't see him leaving early down the line. For a few seasons now he's consistently been a very good player, and at 28, with a price of £18m or so I don't see him being a fringe player.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:27 pm

bigmick wrote:No I don't think he will play a 4-5-1 in the same way we played it last season Saint. Certainly if we pay 20 mill for Keane then he has to play, and it'll be much more of a 4-4-2. No my point wasn't that we'd stick to same method, but more that we proved once and for all that whatever method you settle on, if you broadly stick with it you'll improve as a unit. Now broadly sticking with it doesn't of course mean you play the same team in every single game, bit it does mean you have a a structure, a framework within which you usually play. It doesn't even mean that you are not allowed to go for a surprising selection now and then, a 4-5-1 away to Man Utd for instance, or a 3-5-2 at home to Hull, but it does mean that you have a method, a core first tream which you revert to on most occasions.

Last season Rafa did what all good managers do, he made the best of what he had at his disposal. He had strikers which wern't up to it in one case and aren't up to it in another, and found a use for them. He had wide midfielders who aren't up to it in two cases, and are up to it but can't be bothered in another so he replaced them. It was a classic example of how best to utilize the meagre resources at your disposal. Unfortunately of course he signed almost all of them, but no matter thats not the point oin this occasion.

Now although the continuity, reduction in rotation etc did help, the 4-5-1 did prove limited against stubborn defences, and against top quality teams who were able to isolate Gerrard and Torres from the rest of the team. Because of this, and also because he has to get some cover for the star striker he's going for Keane (at least thats how I see it anyway) and we'll play 4-4-2. As I've often said though mate, I don't really care who he thinks his best team is, where he plays the players (obviously though within reasin, not Crouch or Gerrard on the left wing) as long as he gives whatever selection he goes for a decent chance to work. Had we tried the 4-5-1 in the first couple of months of the season last term, not only would we never have found out whether it'd work, we'd probably never have remembered that we actually tried it such were the frequency of the changes to the team. In actual fact, for all I know we probably did try it and I've forgotten all about it     :D

I understand now mate, good post.

I have never been a lover of 4-2-3-1 and even though as you rightly say, it allowed us to play to our strengths while minimising the problems of poor wingers and misfiring strikers, I never really saw it as a long term solution.

I don't honestly believe many teams will be playing 4-4-2 as we used to see it with two out and out strikers though, and I can't see Rafa going that way either.

Which is my main worry about buying Keane, although many see him as a creative second striker I don't. He creates very few goals for his strike partner imo and is more like Bellamy who runs from deep, but is still an out and out striker, not really a creator.

I think he will be great as a replacement for Torres if Torres god forbid is injured, or needs a rest, but as a partnership I have huge doubts, unless we play Gerrard IN A SUPPORTING ROLE BEHIND THE TWO?

The one big advantage I see to getting Barry in rather than Alonso, is the old problem of "getting your best players on the pitch" that used to see Gerrard having to take up a variety of roles as the only adaptable midfield player. Now we could play Barry on the left with Gerrard and Masch central and when one of them needs a rest, Barry can comfortably slot into the central role.

Whether Barry would carry enough of an attacking threat to hold down a wide left position is another arguement.


Yet if you read what Rafa says about no wingers and attacking full backs that would lead towards a 3-5-2 or a 4-2-3-1

So god knows what formation we will actually play. Like you I hope we find one that suits and stick with it.


BTW Mick I was looking back at some Liverpool teams of the past, and over 50 years ago we had a team in which  10 players played in every game!









It was 1939 and the season was abandoned after 3 games  :D
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Postby bigmick » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:38 am

s@int wrote:BTW Mick I was looking back at some Liverpool teams of the past, and over 50 years ago we had a team in which  10 players played in every game!


It was 1939 and the season was abandoned after 3 games  :D

:D The next time somebody says "but you can't play the same team in every single game" (which will probably be later on today I should think, it's been about twelve hours since someone last said it) I'll give em that one mate, the 1939 season, love it    :D

Just a quick one BTW for Penguins. You said that Ferguson rotates as much as Rafa, well I said that and got pulled up. I said it because loads of people on here had told me it was the case, but apparently it isn't. Apparently he didn't, doesn't and hasn't. We have followed a policy and technique which is unique in it's far reaching "rotationness" by all accounts. If you don't believe me then take it up with the people who pulled me up on it.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:10 am

Igor Zidane wrote:Kinell mick ,your gonna start going into convulsions when Rafa starts "styling" next season mate. :D

:laugh:
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:11 am

If we want though to plough a lone furrow, to make our own history we could look at neither. Who's to say that in a couple of years those same teams won't be looking at us, at how we play strikers on the wing, make hundreds of changes to the team throughout a season, buy sh!t loads of youngsters who are never seen and finish fourth without making a challenge on the league each season?





All that said, I like the way we are going right now.


Hmmm Mick, all that said.
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Postby Espionage » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:49 am

After seeing the style of play of the fullbacks we have brought in, I think that our squad is looking more and more like a 4-2-3-1 formation team.  We have good holding midfielders, no wingers and promising attacking fullbacks (have not really seen them play though..)

Personally I like the formation.  Gerrard fits well, so does Alonso and Masherano with Lucas for cover.  Kuyt seems to like it and I think that Keane (if he comes) could either play up front when needed or the Kuyt type role on either the left or right.
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Postby Penguins » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:08 pm

If Keane comes it would be maddness to use him as a backup
in case someone is injured.
Spending 20 million a 28 year old means he need to be played now and he is in his prime so that would be 20 million wasted in my book if not fully used. I would be fuming if we just replace Keane with Crouch on the bench and said: "business as usual".

Besides any player coming in who might push out Kuyt(one can only hope) is a good thing.
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Postby abcdefg » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:29 pm

7_Kewell wrote:
abcdefg wrote:i don't want to sell it, just want to know if it's original or if anyone has ever seen something similar

don't know and don't care....

doesnt matter, lost time the one spent asking something to you :censored:. See in champions damn :censored: reds.

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Postby NANNY RED » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:58 pm

:laugh:  :laugh: Who the :censored: is Roma :laugh:

The only Roma i know or will be seeeing is 77 and the one we will be visiting in 09 :laugh:
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Postby Rush Job » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:12 pm

abcdefg wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:
abcdefg wrote:i don't want to sell it, just want to know if it's original or if anyone has ever seen something similar

don't know and don't care....

doesnt matter, lost time the one spent asking something to you :censored:. See in champions damn :censored: reds.

-OUR REVENGE WILL COME-
AS ROMA ULTRAS

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Postby The Manhattan Project » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:14 pm

-OUR REVENGE WILL COME-
AS ROMA ULTRAS


Erm....yeah right.

Then you'll draw Man U and get thrashed 10-nil.
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Postby SundanceKid » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:31 am

The Manhattan Project wrote:
-OUR REVENGE WILL COME-
AS ROMA ULTRAS


Erm....yeah right.

Then you'll draw Man U and get thrashed 10-nil.

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