Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:12 am

Will we ever have 11 players that stay with us long enough to play in every match in a full season.

by **Penguins** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:31 am

faldo wrote:
s@int wrote:Far too many comings and goings which not only unsettles the team, but must make it much more difficult to bond them together and get a good fighting teamspirit going.

i get the impression rafa dare not bring in top top quality players,because if it goes wrong then everybody is in no doubt who is to blame.but if you bring in a lower class players, the fans will want them gone rather than the manager.....houliers trick.

i also don't like the goalkeeper shuffle every season.each season a new one comes to liverpool,chuck one in and cost us an important match and then leaves or never play again....very curious.

Worst garbage posted in a while that.

So Rafa dare not bring in quality players?
That is why it is openly known he tried to get Alves, Aguero, Simao, Eto'o, Villa and so on and so on.
Is it so hard to understand there is this thing called money which you nned to buy things.
If there is no money things can not be bought.
Simple enough?

And why would Rafa not dare when not one single expensive signing so far has been a smashing success and as good as we could hope for. Talk about a perfect 10 so far with expensive signings.
But I am sure Rafa couldn't hide his delight when he purposely
bought Pennant and Crouch instead of those other one he wanted....
Sigh, Rafa actually have to abide by the finscial reality of things, good god you don't.

And goalkeeper shuffle?
Now you must be pulling my leg.
Dudek wasn't good enough. So in comes Reina, the 1st buy of a supposed 1st goalie. Result a smashing success and 1 for 1 unlike another manager who brought in Kirkland, Dudek, Westerweld for big money and everyone turned out not good enough....
Reina has been the mainstay in the team every season putting up fantastic numbers. So what a huge controversy that we haven't had a backup keeper nailed to play in those important league cup and some fa cup games.
Paying 750.000 for a few a keepers who could become good.
What a huge waste and such a huge gap in our budget it will create.
Not to mention the buy of one of them generated around 5-6 million for the club. Just terrible really.... :no

Everone wants Reina type peformances in those few games the backup comes in and and he should be cheap like dirt.
Besides Reina the goalies have cost us absolutely nothing considering buys and sales so really neccessary to make a big deal out of Rafa making a few buys hoping to help us finacially in the future.

I know people in the betting shops who spend the same amount of money as the next guy,but he spreads it over many bets. sometimes he wins other times he does not.when he does win its not a great amount because his stake was not very big. the other guy sometimes win and other times does not.....but his winnings are substantially big, because of the size of the stake.

all those years we wasted money on buying 5 or six average players who gave us little back in return.yet we struck it lucky spending big on torres.....if only we could travel back in time.

A pretty poor comparison that. Listen, a manger need to have a squad of really good players. It might be a bit harsh to say this but you are only as good as your worst players.
I have explained it before in this topis but it just doesn't stick I guess.
When Rafa came the squad was rather poor as evident by the 03/04 and 04/05 league campaigns. Houllier had neglected our reserbe squad and you squad which meant there were no young players even close to coming though and the likes of Diao was playing in the reserves.
As obvious as it was for him even we could see that the likelyhood of winning a league in the next few years was almost impossible.
So that meant only Gerrard and Carra to build a team around as the others would most likely not be a part of a title winning team.

And then some might say:

"But all where not 28+ in the squad."

True but the truth is, which actually most supporter can not deny by now is that the rest were just no good enough and fit enough to reach that needed standard. Baros and Cisse were pretty awful and I would not expect them ever to play at the same or higher level as they did here.
Riise just didn't have enough in his arsenal to warrant a place in such a team.
And Kewell was just a vegetable.
There rest were just not even close enough as none of Houllier expensive buys the last couple fo years could make the 1st team.
And it isn't exactly that other teams screamed and chased after the players Rafa deemed not good enough so he had to work like crazy to get rid of Houlliers deadwood seading them out on loans all over Europe to at least avoid paying their inflated wages.
And the final parting gift of Cisse was a nice blow to leave Rafa with little money to spend and a dissillusioned squad which made owen decide to leave.

Rafa learned the hard way what happens when you don't have squad depth that 1st season having Mellor and Pongolle as his only options in attack for a while until Morientes came.

But back to my point. Since a whole new squad had to be created that would be of a good enough quality when called upon Rafa had so many positions that needed to be upgraded and/or filled.
The 2nd alternatives when he arrived where non-existant.
There were almost no backups for the 1st team players
and even the 1st team players were not of the required quality.
What good is it to buy 1 or 2 expensive players when 15 left in the squad were very substandard?
And yes, they were not that good or they had to be replaced anyway in the near future.
Instead Rafa has raised the quality of the entire squad slowly but surely so every player in the squad can be expected to do their jobs well enough. And the average ago in the squad has dropped also which means alot for the future as we can have them for a long time at the club.

The reason Rafa has splashed the cash on those few occasions mentioned is because...
He hasn't been able to splash the cash more often if we at the same time were expencted to have a squad with less holes
than a swiss cheese.

And about the rotation.
Well, if I am not wrong Slur Alex rotated his team around just as much as we did. And it is neccessary to keep your squad fresh during the season.

At the same time I am not going to deny the fact that he changed around too much at the beginning of the season.
He seems to be a perfectionist and wants to find the right balance so he tinkers a bit too much.

To his defense there were quite alot of new players and
also Rafa desperatly needed to find a formation that could somehow fit in Kuyt in the team.

But much biggest issue is the actual changes he makes.
His extreme stubborness in some cases playing players out of positions no matter how many games. Or playing a player so out of form everyone can see it for 20 straight games.
And then letting players on form sit on the bench.
His love for craft and workrate blinds Rafa to such a degree that skill, goalscoring flair etc comes 2nd in comparison.

If Rafa had to choose between 11 marathon runners, who couldn't hit the ball even if their life depended on it, or 11 mega skilled ball artists who practically couldn't run but could do basically anything with the ball rafa would pick only 11 marathon runners.
This means for example that Crouch looses out no matter how many goals he scores or what form he is in because Kuyt runs more.

That form is is temporary clas is permanent is *******.
You are only as good as you last couple of games.
If a player can get into gear for whatever reason when he pulls on that red sweater it is time to sit on the bench and if that doesn't work then ship out.

But I still think Rafa has taken huge strides with us and considering what he has accomplished so far with the resources available he is the best manager we have had for 20 years.
He has had the same economic conditions as for example spurs
but since he is the manager for lfc performing well isn't good enough.
I think Rafa for all his warts are practically world class even if he makes me furious sometimes.
I'd love to know who can do better than "well". Because winning the leage would demand something fantastic.
O' Niell? Redknapp?
Shiver

by **Espionage** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:19 am

LegBarnes wrote:
s@int wrote:
Espionage wrote:Successful clubs stick with one manager in England. I really see no reason to swap and change, Rafa is obviously a classy guy and would be snapped up by any other club.

Its much easier to have a manager that makes the same sorts of decisions that you think you would make. Then when things go pear-shaped it must be the fault of the players, not the managers. But if you dont understand his decisions it must be his fault

IMO managers are there for 2 things:

(1)building a team
Rafa has been A (maybe not A+) in the transfer market, bringing in some real quality (Torres, Masch, Agger, Reina, Alonso, Crouch) with most of them young and buying heaps of players for our long term future in the reserves.

(2) employing good tactics and improving players
Tactically he is reveared as a genius by the football world (his record speaks for it self) and likewise by his players and people around the club. Torres time and time again gives credit to Rafa for improving him as a player, and preparing him with technical info on each team's defense. And he is not the only player to credit Rafa with helping him improve in leaps and bounds.

These are the things that Rafa CAN change, and what he should be judged on. IMO he has done more then good enough in my eyes for him to warrant long term confidence. I believe that poor performance by the team is not just the manager's fault. The weakest area of our team is some of the players we have wouldnt make it into the starting 11 at Chelsea or Man U and not our manager. As far as I am concerned that is our problem.

*I am not going to get dragged into a rotation arguement as its been done to death. But yeah, I am fine with Rafa's rotation policy. IMO he rotates when its broken, and he generally doesnt try to fix it when its not.

Good post mate and I agree with most of it.

The successful players you pick out:-

Torres (our highest ever fee for a striker)
Masch (our highest ever fee for a midfield player)
Agger (Our highest ever fee for a defender at the time)
Reina (Our highest ever fee for a Goalkeeper)
Alonso(Our highest ever fee for a midfield player at the time)
Crouch(Not in the same league as the above but nonetheless still a success for me.)

As I have said when he spashes the cash and buys quality he does extremely well, its the cheap gambles and too many average players that don't improve the team thats the problem.

Far too many comings and goings which not only unsettles the team, but must make it much more difficult to bond them together and get a good fighting teamspirit going.

That hits nail in the head saint.

To many in and out , that cant help any team.

Fergi never brings in more then 2-3 each season to first team unless he feels things really need big change.

Wenger is same , but must be more to our poor performances then just to many new faces , I still think we are not agressive in league games.

Question is would you either like rafa to go all out in every game this season or to keep same tactics as yester years.

I would personaly have him be more agressive go for that 2nd and 3rd goal when we go 1 up.

I think team almost get stressed when we go 1 up and tend to get nervous and sit back.

Is it just a trend they got into or part of rafas personality rubbing of on them or does he just tell them to sit back ?

Either way i feel that plays a massive role in how come we fall short each year by 10-20 points.

I disagree with some of these points. I feel that Fergie brings in only 1-2 players because he already has a team worthy of challanging with some oldies (that need to be replaced soon) and some youngsters of real quality. Wenger is in the same boat as us and needs to build a title winning team with less resources and he does it by giving youngsters opportunities which can either do well or you can have some dry patches.

Rafa has had to make so many changes because we had nothing anywhere near strong enough cover in basically all positions. All of Houllier's hopefuls towards the last couple of years never really came though.

Also regarding Saint's comment about having trouble bonding. Its a double edged sword as keeping players that are unsettled or not good enough is bad for the team likewise. I think its unfair to say that Rafa is having a negative impact on the fighting spirit by bringing in and clearing people (that really should be cleared out). If he wins, then people say that he brought in hungry competition and it helped the winning mentality and good fighting spirit etc...

The point is we are not winning at the moment, so we can draw conclusions from what we see but you have to take it with a grain of salt. These are theories, and should be treated like theories. Its when these sorts of things get preached as undisputed facts that managers get sacked for the wrong reasons.

by **oakton** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:01 am

Rafa has bought 33 players in and sold 34 players in the last couple of years. It means he is getting a lot of signings wrong and that's why he has to replace them.

by **faldo** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:02 pm

not all his signings were low class,peter crouch cost quite a bit considering he only had one half decent season at southamton.the moment he started to look class,he was sent to the bench.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:18 pm

Espionage wrote:Also regarding Saint's comment about having trouble bonding. Its a double edged sword as keeping players that are unsettled or not good enough is bad for the team likewise. I think its unfair to say that Rafa is having a negative impact on the fighting spirit by bringing in and clearing people (that really should be cleared out). If he wins, then people say that he brought in hungry competition and it helped the winning mentality and good fighting spirit etc...

Sorry to only quote a little bit of your post mate but hopefully I havent taken it out of context.

The thing is though we have bought 50 players, sold another 54 thats over £250million of transfer deals in 4 years. Thats averaging a full team in every year, and another full team out

How many of those left because they where unhappy etc very few as far as I am aware. Most I would imagine never wanted to go and tried hard to stay. As for the players that arnt good enough, what can be worse for moral than seeing a decent popular player moved on because he's not good enough........ only to be replaced by someone who's no better.

The new player then usually needs a season to settle into the club, as despite everything players are still human and the problems involved in changing jobs, meeting new team mates, moving home, living in hotels , finding schools for the kids etc etc effect them and their performances.

Why is it unfair to say that it may effect their fighting spirit? A team that has been together a while will bond better and help each other much more than a team made up of strangers. That is why managers try to arrange for the players to have BONDING NIGHTS such as when Bellamy lost it with Riise!

I think the hungry competition is a phrase from a different era probably the 60's or 70's mate. We now have large squads and while a few players will be happy just to be in the squad most will be wanting a first team place. The problem at the moment(under rotation) is that sometimes now it seems they just have to wait their turn rather than earn their place in the team.

I remember when Rafa first came to the club one of the things he said he wanted to do was "break up the English clique" of players who always sat together, ate, talked together , went out together etc etc. While it wasn't exactly just an English clique as Hyypia Hamann wern't English the rest were ...... Murphy, Gerrard,Owen and Carra .

The reason for this was he wanted ALL the players to bond to get a good team spirit in the squad and eliminate the elitest element that had grown up around the best players at the club. So its obviously an important element of success.

The problem is how can you build up a good team spirit when you have so many comings and goings EVERY SEASON?

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:08 pm

Well, we've now established a core of quality players who don't seem to be heading anywhere. Alonso, ok he may go, but if needs must then so be it. Mascherano and Torres have been consolidated as key members of the first team in the past season, Skrtel a likely other in future.

I don't see a major problem with the relationship between team spirit/high turnover of players at the club. Players leave for various reasons, but that isn't the point, it's whether or not the spine of the team looks like being dispersed in the future, and I don't think it does. If we can supplement the core of quality players we already have, with equally up-to-standard players, I don't see a problem. Dossena could be our answer at LB, Keane will be another to add to that core, and possibly Barry. I don't see these two struggling to settle in, or failing to produce the goods. Gerrard knows Barry, and I'm fairly certain he knows Keane too.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:33 pm

Alonso, Finnan, Hyypia (probably his last season and probably wont play much), Riise and Kewell already gone, all long established and I presume popular players, with Arbeloa homesick (and no I don't blame Rafa

), while maybe not core players will certainly make a hole in the squad .

I think it must make a big difference to team moral, especially when players also see how some of our players have been poorly treated. While we can no longer afford to be sentimental about players, I think we should at least try to afford some continuity in the squad.

People moan and groan about players lack of loyalty (Owen, Mcmanaman etc) yet when the clubs tout loyal players around as if they were pieces of second hand furniture, they seem to see no problem.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:43 pm

Yes, but I think if you look at Reina, Agger, Carragher, Skrtel, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres, we have a spine that has a fair likelihood of sticking around for the next few years. Add to that, potentially Dossena, Barry and Keane, we may begin to see the spine flesh itself out. I agree that too many players leaving is a bit of a problem in that it means building a team spirit etc. becomes more tedious - but I'd be more concerned if we weren't bringing in, or looking to bring in players who can realistically supplement that core. I don't think it's a major problem though as the game in general is a bit like this. I think players and managers get used to the merry-go-round that is football.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:53 pm

Liverpool has always thought of itself as different to most other clubs, a family club where the players, fans and management have a special relationship. How can you have anysort of feeling for the player when they are in and out faster than Judge on a promise.

Maybe its because I can still remember "the good 'ol days" when we had real affection for most of the players built up over many years rather than the fast food type relationships of today where it seems the more you pay for a player the better they seem to be regarded.

by **parchpea** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:00 pm

Benitez just keeps trying with different players in the hope it falls right. Lets face it you really couldnt say he is carefully selecting players and building slowly,if it doesnt work then he rips it up and starts again.

I would rather he kept money back and just bought players we really need but so many young kids coming especailly I reckon his empahsis is on youth an moulding talent now seen as it doesnt seem he has much cash to spend on senior players.

It may be harsh for some but the bottom line is Benitez doesnt have time to build and mould a young team because frankly if if we dont put in a big challenge for the league very soon he will be out of the job.

by **Number 9** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:02 pm

s@int wrote:Liverpool has always thought of itself as different to most other clubs, a family club where the players, fans and management have a special relationship. How can you have anysort of feeling for the player when they are in and out faster than Judge on a promise.

Maybe its because I can still remember "the good 'ol days" when we had real affection for most of the players built up over many years rather than the fast food type relationships of today where it seems the more you pay for a player the better they seem to be regarded.

Faster than Judge on a promise!!
I liked that one!!

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:51 pm

If you had asked people early last season, I think you would have found that most of them thought we had a midfield that in all likelyhood would be around for years too! New contracts handed out, future assured......and then....

Sissoko gone, Alonso( ?), and Gerrard now a second striker, or if Keane and Barry do come..... WHAT(?)

by **bigmick** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:17 pm

It all really comes under the one umbrella of having a plan and sticking to it I guess. I hope that we are finally getting towards some sort of endgame and I honestly think we are FWIW, and once that's in place I suspect we'll see less of the revolving door. We did kind of stumble upon a plan last season (nobody will ever in a million years convince me that last Summer Rafa planned to use one striker as left winger and another as a right winger in a 4-5-1) but it doesn't matter, we found a method somehow and it worked. What's even more important is that we broadly stuck with it, reaping the rewards as some of us have being going on about for a while.

If you extend that learning process and actually buy into the idea that players can play quite a lot of times without needing a mobile oxygen tent on the touchline, it then follows that you might actually need less players to make a title challenging group. If you need less, you can spend heavier on each one which means you can bring in better players who are more suited to the environment, the much talked about "first team" player. Like all things, it's a question of balance and as a couple have said, once you have that core of virtual ever presents it's just a matter of topping it up each season.

Like all things, in football if you want to improve sometimes the best way is to copy other people. If we're looking for that solid base, bring a first teamer or two through and build a really strong team spirit model we could do worse than look at Manchester United. Sure they have their odd failures, but broadly they buy players who are going to look to kick on for the first team, and whats more once they make the first team if they do the business they broadly stay in it. If on the other hand, we are going to continue to buy up lots of young players from around the globe, we could do worse than study the Arsenal model and how they've managed to constantly replenish the first team with promotions from the ranks of unknowns.

If we want though to plough a lone furrow, to make our own history we could look at neither. Who's to say that in a couple of years those same teams won't be looking at us, at how we play strikers on the wing, make hundreds of changes to the team throughout a season, buy sh!t loads of youngsters who are never seen and finish fourth without making a challenge on the league each season?

All that said, I like the way we are going right now. I really do think we are about to get sensible with team selection (it would be really ridiculous after all if we bought Barry, Keane and Dossena for the money we are looking to spend and then rotated them in a similar vein to say the way Crouch was last season). No, if they come they will be Gerrard style, or Torres style first teamers and that is exactly what we need. Then the revolving door won't need any more WD40 and we can build a proper team, with a proper team spirit.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:25 pm

Kinell mick ,your gonna start going into convulsions when Rafa starts "styling" next season mate.

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