Liverpool FC Forum

by **taff** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:30 am

The Man Utd thing is quite interesting.

Ferguson is frustrated with Rooney at times as he tries to much while deviating from the team, the guy is a world class talent but managers are generally more interested in the balance of the team. Beckham against Greece got plaudits but there were a few interesting articles from foreign coaches who criticised his performance as he did too much and deviated from the game plan, at the time he was also becoming a big fish at Man Utd and we know what happened to him there.

If you look at us then Gerrard immediately stands out as our main player and Rafa has been known to get frustrated with his performance and tactical know how. I sympathise with rafa but SG has pulled us out of the fire more times than I can remember.

Now my point is that maybe Rafa has struggled to adjust with that as in Spain well deffo at Valencia the ethos was the team first before stars and stick to a game plan, but Houllier like Sven for England got caught up in the cult of the personality and like Cappello will find out theu inherit that. where I think Rafa has struggled is with that culture. Now maybe the Barry thing is a step in the right direction as he is a player who will benefit the team with his attitude and experience in the Premiership rather than being an ideal player in rafas system especially with the glut of midfield we have, and sometimes that flexibility with the team is what we have sometimes lacked. To use Man Utd again its the Scoles and Giggs, class players who did their roles in the league without complaint that are the players who fergie never messed with. Maybe Rafa is moving towards who can benefit the league rather than who will adapt to his systems so we should see an increase in flexibility next season.

On a different note a good friend of mine, a die hard Arsenal fan is a big fan of Rafa and actually thought that the FA should have broken the bank to get him as England manager as he said who is the best manager in a one off game, and that is what international football is all about. While he rated Wenger and Fergie above him as league managers he rated Rafa as the best cup manager

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:53 am

said that the Mancs didn't suffer badly with injuries last season, whereas we did.

I missed the part of the season where Torres was out for two months, I missed tha period when Gerrard broke his leg, I missed that period where Carra was sidelined for half the year and Reina broke his fingers. I missed having Mashca out all season with an achilles injury as did I miss Bables long term injury.

Get a grip FFS!

by **bigmick** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:57 am

On the question of injuries, if you offered me the same injuries in terms of severity and importance to the team next season as we had this season, I'd absolutely bite your hand off. For starters we had Hyppia covering for game after game before Skyrtel signed and if big sami had picked up a knock, we would have been absolutely fecked. Carra never missed a game, neither did Gerrard and neither did Torres if you don't count "restings" which I don't

In all seriousness, I think Gerrard had a problem with his foot for a couple of weeks and Torres had a muscle tweak for the same period. Give me that every year by all means.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:31 am

Were ‘Another Wasted Corner’ – long since disappeared from the fanzine market – to make a reappearance, surely the most appropriate title would be ‘Another Wasted Season’. Hey, it’s not like we haven’t found ourselves in the exact same situation twice before – Souness and Evans stayed (or were allowed to stay) too long and action was only taken mid-season, when things were too late. Anyone high up in Anfield ever think about responding to crises with alacrity and making difficult (or blindingly obvious!) decisions – y’know, the ones you get paid millions to make – in the summer?

It was Winston Churchill who said “The further backward you look, the further forward you can see.” How apt. It’s like a recurring nightmare in L4. For people to make mistakes is forgivable. For the same people to repeat them is not. Parry is about our best hope of change (and given his rumoured bosom-buddy relationship with Gérard, that doesn’t say a lot), seeing as Moores seems increasingly indifferent to the crisis and is docility personified. What does he do? Where is the Club going? Or, more pertinently, where has it gone?

Fourth is Everything, Fifth is Nothing

Gérard should have been sacked last summer (maybe even earlier than that) – that was obvious to many of us. However, he wasn’t, so we’ve had to put up with him this season. Many reasons for keeping him were trotted out by the Apologista: “He deserves a chance to put things right”; “We’ve made continuous progress since he came here, apart from last season’s (2002-03) blip”; “One bad season shouldn’t be the end of him”; “He’ll change to a new attacking style”. And so we waited for the season – one that was bound to be better than what had gone before. But before a ball had been kicked, we saw the goalposts shifted.

Expectations were lowered at the start of the season. The cynics amongst us would say that that was because people at the Club knew we weren’t going to live up to the Number Nineteen tripe that was trotted out by some fans in the summer – lower the bar and you might just keep enough of them happy! Some of us didn’t accept anything less than an authentic Championship challenge; many accepted ‘Fourth and attacking football’. But what is Fourth? Imagine for a second the World Cup is played between four teams: Brazil, Germany, Italy and Liechtenstein. For sure Liechtenstein would finish Fourth. But they’d be miles behind. We may finish Fourth this season (although given that 64 points was only good enough for fifth last season and we’re not on course to match even that, I have grave doubts).

But what would it mean? Nothing (to me anyway). Because, as I’ve said, Fourth should only be acceptable if we were still in the hunt for the Title in April or May; if we were playing good football; and if we were giving the “Big Three” a run for their money, rather than fending off clubs that we shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as. No, it would only be Fourth in name. In Money. In Parry’s Champions-League-dominated, money-infested mind. In essence, it would be Best of the Rest. The Also-rans. The Ordinary clubs. In short, an abdication of all that this Club should stand for.

It’s Fourth as decreed from on high in the corridors of power in Geneva. Rest assured if the bar was lowered to Sixth, we’d hear about “Sixth and attacking football”. It’s a dangerous game this – what can only be termed “gradual drifting”. We’ve moved backwards as the Big Three (and more particularly Arsenal and United) have moved forwards. We need to move fast just to stand still – and that’s not happening under Ged. The fosse is widening – and unless we reassess and start taking tough decisions, the fortresses in Manchester and West and North London are going to become impenetrable. Don’t think it can’t happen. It is eminently possible – indeed, probable. The Past may give us a right to expectations, but we must earn the right to fulfil them.

Don’t just blame Gérard!

Gérard has taken a lot of flak for this season and last – some of his media statements have been mind-boggling and he seems to be settling for second best (or Fourth best!) – describing last season as one “not deprived of success”. Champions League seems to be his new focus, as he’s realised Arsenal and United are out of his reach – “two or three years behind”!

But hang on a minute – this amendment to our unwritten (yet Sacred, put in place as it was by men like Shankly and Paisley) Constitution, stems from the very top of the Club. From the very men who should know so much better. But, because the Mighty Pound supersedes years of blood, sweat and tears, our ambitions have been dismantled and downgraded: the sole aim appears to be to impress in the financial field – rather than on the football field, where Dreams are made.

Want evidence? Lamentably, there’s loads of it – and it’s been apparent for years. Here is a part of the annual report for the last four years, as read by your Chairman, David Moores.

In 2000 the Chairman said: “At the start of the season, the Club set its ambition as ‘consistent qualification for the UEFA Champions League’. A three-year strategy to achieve this was put in place.”

In 2001: “Last year, I spelt out the Club’s overriding ambition as ‘consistent qualification for the Champions League’ – with the emphasis, undoubtedly, on consistency.”

In 2002 he wrote: “The target of automatic qualification for the Champions League was achieved. Qualification for the Champions League remains a vital strand to our business strategy.”

And in 2003 he said: “Over recent years I have repeatedly stated that the Club’s overriding objective is consistent qualification for the Champions League.”

See the common theme here? Not difficult, is it? Champions League is our new “bread-and-butter”. The Club’s “overriding objective”. That’s a sad fact. If we win the League (ha!), it’s a bonus. But so long as we get in the Champions League, Moores and Co. are going to be happy. Fourth is as good as First.

Echoes of the past?

Ripped from TLW

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:42 am

s@int wrote:Were ‘Another Wasted Corner’ – long since disappeared from the fanzine market – to make a reappearance, surely the most appropriate title would be ‘Another Wasted Season’. Hey, it’s not like we haven’t found ourselves in the exact same situation twice before – Souness and Evans stayed (or were allowed to stay) too long and action was only taken mid-season, when things were too late. Anyone high up in Anfield ever think about responding to crises with alacrity and making difficult (or blindingly obvious!) decisions – y’know, the ones you get paid millions to make – in the summer?

It was Winston Churchill who said “The further backward you look, the further forward you can see.” How apt. It’s like a recurring nightmare in L4. For people to make mistakes is forgivable. For the same people to repeat them is not. Parry is about our best hope of change (and given his rumoured bosom-buddy relationship with Gérard, that doesn’t say a lot), seeing as Moores seems increasingly indifferent to the crisis and is docility personified. What does he do? Where is the Club going? Or, more pertinently, where has it gone?

Fourth is Everything, Fifth is Nothing

Gérard should have been sacked last summer (maybe even earlier than that) – that was obvious to many of us. However, he wasn’t, so we’ve had to put up with him this season. Many reasons for keeping him were trotted out by the Apologista: “He deserves a chance to put things right”; “We’ve made continuous progress since he came here, apart from last season’s (2002-03) blip”; “One bad season shouldn’t be the end of him”; “He’ll change to a new attacking style”. And so we waited for the season – one that was bound to be better than what had gone before. But before a ball had been kicked, we saw the goalposts shifted.

Expectations were lowered at the start of the season. The cynics amongst us would say that that was because people at the Club knew we weren’t going to live up to the Number Nineteen tripe that was trotted out by some fans in the summer – lower the bar and you might just keep enough of them happy! Some of us didn’t accept anything less than an authentic Championship challenge; many accepted ‘Fourth and attacking football’. But what is Fourth? Imagine for a second the World Cup is played between four teams: Brazil, Germany, Italy and Liechtenstein. For sure Liechtenstein would finish Fourth. But they’d be miles behind. We may finish Fourth this season (although given that 64 points was only good enough for fifth last season and we’re not on course to match even that, I have grave doubts).

But what would it mean? Nothing (to me anyway). Because, as I’ve said, Fourth should only be acceptable if we were still in the hunt for the Title in April or May; if we were playing good football; and if we were giving the “Big Three” a run for their money, rather than fending off clubs that we shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as. No, it would only be Fourth in name. In Money. In Parry’s Champions-League-dominated, money-infested mind. In essence, it would be Best of the Rest. The Also-rans. The Ordinary clubs. In short, an abdication of all that this Club should stand for.

It’s Fourth as decreed from on high in the corridors of power in Geneva. Rest assured if the bar was lowered to Sixth, we’d hear about “Sixth and attacking football”. It’s a dangerous game this – what can only be termed “gradual drifting”. We’ve moved backwards as the Big Three (and more particularly Arsenal and United) have moved forwards. We need to move fast just to stand still – and that’s not happening under Ged. The fosse is widening – and unless we reassess and start taking tough decisions, the fortresses in Manchester and West and North London are going to become impenetrable. Don’t think it can’t happen. It is eminently possible – indeed, probable. The Past may give us a right to expectations, but we must earn the right to fulfil them.

Don’t just blame Gérard!

Gérard has taken a lot of flak for this season and last – some of his media statements have been mind-boggling and he seems to be settling for second best (or Fourth best!) – describing last season as one “not deprived of success”. Champions League seems to be his new focus, as he’s realised Arsenal and United are out of his reach – “two or three years behind”!

But hang on a minute – this amendment to our unwritten (yet Sacred, put in place as it was by men like Shankly and Paisley) Constitution, stems from the very top of the Club. From the very men who should know so much better. But, because the Mighty Pound supersedes years of blood, sweat and tears, our ambitions have been dismantled and downgraded: the sole aim appears to be to impress in the financial field – rather than on the football field, where Dreams are made.

Want evidence? Lamentably, there’s loads of it – and it’s been apparent for years. Here is a part of the annual report for the last four years, as read by your Chairman, David Moores.

In 2000 the Chairman said: “At the start of the season, the Club set its ambition as ‘consistent qualification for the UEFA Champions League’. A three-year strategy to achieve this was put in place.”

In 2001: “Last year, I spelt out the Club’s overriding ambition as ‘consistent qualification for the Champions League’ – with the emphasis, undoubtedly, on consistency.”

In 2002 he wrote: “The target of automatic qualification for the Champions League was achieved. Qualification for the Champions League remains a vital strand to our business strategy.”

And in 2003 he said: “Over recent years I have repeatedly stated that the Club’s overriding objective is consistent qualification for the Champions League.”

See the common theme here? Not difficult, is it? Champions League is our new “bread-and-butter”. The Club’s “overriding objective”. That’s a sad fact. If we win the League (ha!), it’s a bonus. But so long as we get in the Champions League, Moores and Co. are going to be happy. Fourth is as good as First.

Echoes of the past?

Ripped from TLW

Hmmm ... an almost parallel scenario.

F.uck it, lets just keep making excuses !

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:07 am

bigmick wrote:On the question of injuries, if you offered me the same injuries in terms of severity and importance to the team next season as we had this season, I'd absolutely bite your hand off. For starters we had Hyppia covering for game after game before Skyrtel signed and if big sami had picked up a knock, we would have been absolutely fecked. Carra never missed a game, neither did Gerrard and neither did Torres if you don't count "restings" which I don't

In all seriousness, I think Gerrard had a problem with his foot for a couple of weeks and Torres had a muscle tweak for the same period. Give me that every year by all means.

Carra broke two ribs earlier in the season and missed a couple mate.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:32 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:On the question of injuries, if you offered me the same injuries in terms of severity and importance to the team next season as we had this season, I'd absolutely bite your hand off. For starters we had Hyppia covering for game after game before Skyrtel signed and if big sami had picked up a knock, we would have been absolutely fecked. Carra never missed a game, neither did Gerrard and neither did Torres if you don't count "restings" which I don't

In all seriousness, I think Gerrard had a problem with his foot for a couple of weeks and Torres had a muscle tweak for the same period. Give me that every year by all means.

Carra broke two ribs earlier in the season and missed a couple mate.

Ok. Well apart from Alonso, apart from Torres, apart from Gerrard and apart from Carragher, what other injuries have we got to moan about eh?

But seriously, and I stand corrected on Carra, we didn't by any stretch have a bad season injury wise like some are suggesting.

by **stmichael** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:43 am

Our biggest downfall this year was our poor defending in crucial moments of the game. Albeit it has a lot to do with injuries. The loss of Agger meant we had to defend miles deeper than we would if he was playing.

I believe that we have more than enough players to challenge for the title. Are you lot telling me that Arsenal have more good players than we have? I don't believe that, I think we are even in that area, but they did more last season than we did with the resources they had available.

We have proven to be a difficult team to beat, and we have had good long runs of winning games. However, we did not sustain it when we were close to reaching key positions in the table. Most of it is down to our draws at home, and again I point out the defending.

The amount of times we have come back to get a result has been impressive, considering our inability to do it not so long ago.

by **metalhead** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:45 am

bigmick wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:On the question of injuries, if you offered me the same injuries in terms of severity and importance to the team next season as we had this season, I'd absolutely bite your hand off. For starters we had Hyppia covering for game after game before Skyrtel signed and if big sami had picked up a knock, we would have been absolutely fecked. Carra never missed a game, neither did Gerrard and neither did Torres if you don't count "restings" which I don't

In all seriousness, I think Gerrard had a problem with his foot for a couple of weeks and Torres had a muscle tweak for the same period. Give me that every year by all means.

Carra broke two ribs earlier in the season and missed a couple mate.

Ok. Well apart from Alonso, apart from Torres, apart from Gerrard and apart from Carragher, what other injuries have we got to moan about eh?

But seriously, and I stand corrected on Carra, we didn't by any stretch have a bad season injury wise like some are suggesting.

and apart from agger, apart from kewell, apart from finnan...

by **bigmick** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:17 pm

But what have the Romans ever given US?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:30 pm

bigmick wrote:But what have the Romans ever given US?

The Aqueduct ?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:30 pm

And the sanitation.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:31 pm

And the roads.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:31 pm

Irrigation, Medicine, Education.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:32 pm

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

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